The DWmegawad Club plays: NOVA II

[Dylan Jarvis]

MAP28 Messe Noire:

Another solid map, this one has huge inspiration from quake considering the castle theme and quake textures. The church encounter was my favorite part of the map. The last encounter was pretty insane the right enemies were used to make this part very difficult. Great map. 2 more to go!

[Demonologist]

Thank you very much for your feedback on 28 guys, I'm actually quite surprised by such a positive reception, as for me personally this map is half-baked. And it actually is, let me lift the veil for a bit and tell how it was done...

When I made a pact with lords of Nova 2 (heh), it was already only a several days before the deadline, and even though dobu said that, say, a weekly overdue would be okay - I didn't want to be a nuisance that'd delay the process. In addition, I was asked to abandon my usual ruthless creed and make something more approachable, and also not very long, so all these factors combined resulted in me working pretty fast. I was low on ideas, so what I started initially was an improvised slaughtermap that sucked horribly and got trashed. And then I thought that I could use something I envisioned for one of my personal projects that, due to my tense relationships with doom editor, hardly ever happens. The idea wasn't very new, at this point I already used all the design tropes it contained more than once.
And so I started over. Q1tex became pretty much my last resort some time ago, as I feel comfortable with it and can keep up a pretty high pace without thinking too much about consistency or texture combinations (making this map took about 3 days, with ~10-12 hours in total, something like that). As a side effect - all the visuals are totally something that was already seen before...
I also deliberately avoided slaughter-based approach this time around, so scifista is right on that matter. It's mostly about "incidental" fights with some corridor-shooting and larger areas that offer more threatening opposition composed of small groups of strong monsters and some cannon fodder. After reading all the feedback I may come to a conclusion that it actually worked, but all the statements about the layout being super simple and flat are 100% valid, on the other hand. I should really abandon this approach at this point, I'm tired of it myself. I like how the exterior areas turned out, but I agree that the interior ones can be considered half-assed in many aspects.
Initially the map was planned to be larger, e.g. the red key had to have its own area behind the starting point and pretty big fight to accompany its acquisition, but I was dissatisfied with how that area turned out and threw it away completely, so the red key was unimaginatively placed in front of the graveyard entrance (backtracking would still be there in any case, so sorry for that). Same was the deal with the plasma gun, in the end I decided that there's no need for another slog, so the only thing left is that small room that houses it.

And yes, I'm a glboom+ player, so everything was designed with gl renderer and gamma correction level 1 in mind. Apologies to software players for the inconvenience and possible shitty looks in dark areas. And the spectres that are indeed harder to see than in gl mode.

[Dylan Jarvis]

MAP29 Anaemia:

Alright this map is... beautiful, big and fun but... I didn't really like it for some reason. First there's 2 secrets that make the reward not worth it like the Megasphere secret. I was almost dead when I found that secret so I had no choice to pick it up and then get it instantly taken back by a huge ambush, hated that. The other secret has a blue mega armor and a big imp ambush, no big deal right? Well on top of that 2 Arch-viles spawn in with barely any cover and no plasma to take them down. I also hated the lack of plasma in this map I spent most of the map using the rocket launcher which would of been ok if there wasn't a shit ton of close encounters. Other than that the map was still good better than MAP15 still but that wasn't hard to do. Another complaint I have is it's overdetailed. I mean come on it's pretty and all, but I care more about fluid gameplay then how nice the map looks. Just my 2 cents.

Also this elevator damages on the edge when it's down, I recommend removing the pain sectors here so it doesn't hurt while waiting to go up.

[Dylan Jarvis]

MAP30 Legions:

Alright great finisher to the wad. Cool new custom enemy who seems like a push over at first but the encounters with all the enemies from the side areas are pretty brutal. This map was also really well designed. It didn't rely on pointless overdetailing to wow the player. Some reason some of the monsters didn't spawn in IE Archviles and a lost soul. This was fun I'm glad this wad had a perfect finish to top it off.

[Dylan Jarvis]

Now to review the Wad: This overall was a really good wad there really is only one map that I don't really want to play again (but will anyway and might enjoy it more the second time). I liked the themes we were taken through here. Unlike some other opinions, I actually appreciated the death exits for each episode. My favorite episode was hands down the third. My least favorite was the first. This wad overall isn't ridiculously difficult either which is a huge plus. Even the slaughter maps were great.

Top 10 favorite Maps:

1. MAP32
2. MAP23
3. MAP26
4. MAP13
5. MAP05
6. MAP18
7. MAP24
8. MAP27
9. MAP25
10.MAP19 or MAP21

Top 5 least favorites:

1. MAP15
2. MAP29
3. MAP03
4. MAP20
5. MAP06 (I guess)

[Urthar]

mouldy said:

I guess its possible he wandered off to infight with something and ended up getting killed? Maybe he needs the boss noise/explosion to make it more clear that something important has happened.

I wouldn't have thought it would be infighting as I had already fed him multiple BFG shots and rockets. I'm beginning to wonder if he got stuck somewhere and then got telefragged by a monster spawner.

[scifista42]

MAP29 - "Anaemia" by tourniquet & Ribbiks

Did not finish. This is a really skillfully made map, but unfortunately, in a style and with gameplay that I (as a player) find discouraging more than satisfying in long term. It's too hard for me to play fluidly and, combined with all the hyper-abstract hyper-monumental architecture, I feel like I'm entirely left to the mercy of a mysterious alien godlike creator, rather than having the slightest universal advantage or fighting incentive on my part. When I move ahead into the map, I always feel that I'm not going there to kick monster's asses, but only to fall into traps and setups specifically made to test me. This is usually cool, but hard + entirely strange-looking maps like these (all Ribbiks's maps and similar ones) are overwhelming to me in a way that makes me feel uncomfortable while playing and fighting, that's why I can't stand playing such maps.

[tourniquet]

Obsidian said:

I could swap around the sounds with the Romero Head sounds, I don't think anyone's used it in too extensive a manner in their maps. Are there any maps that use the Icon?

Personally i don't mind if you swap the Romero head sounds, i merely used them in map32 because of the explosion but their might be another problem since i use the hierophant as Keen replacement in the same map and map29 and it might appear a bit odd to hear the death sound after pressing some random switches. Is it possible to set the sound to local so that it can't be heard thoughout the whole map?

[dannebubinga]

scifista42 said:

This is usually cool, but hard + entirely strange-looking maps like these (all Ribbiks's maps and similar ones) are overwhelming to me in regards of feeling comfortable while playing and fighting, that's why I can't stand playing such maps.

Sounds like you need to play more maps like this to get some practice ;)

And what do you mean "not rewarding"? How do you feel rewarded after killing 2 hell Knights with ssg compared to have controlled a horde of cacos and taking them down with RL while you are being sniped by 1 cyberdemon and 2 mancubus?! Now that's something rewarding to pull off I tell you.

[tourniquet]

Hm not that i question your opinion scifista i really appreciate honest feedback. But i just wonder why you voted for Sunlust last month when you actually don't like this type of gameplay or Ribbiks maps in general. Seems a bit odd to me.

[Obsidian]

tourniquet said:

Personally i don't mind if you swap the Romero head sounds, i merely used them in map32 because of the explosion but their might be another problem since i use the hierophant as Keen replacement in the same map and map29 and it might appear a bit odd to hear the death sound after pressing some random switches. Is it possible to set the sound to local so that it can't be heard thoughout the whole map?

If you used the first form with the KeenDie parameter then you shouldn't worry: the loud death sound is only needed for the second form, the one that ends the map when killed.

EDIT: Spelling.

[gaspe]

MAP30 - Legion

Kills: 95% | Items: 75% | Secrets: 0%

Last map. Pretty straight forward and with some nice waves of mosnters to support the custom boss. Due to the tight space the place gets filled quickly with monsters and it makes some pressure to finish the boss as than there's the IoS spwaning enemies as usual. A great conclusion.

Overall this was a good wad. Each map was very different from the others, as you can expect when almost every map is made by a different author. This provided a very varied experience in gameplay and atmosphere that was put in the maps.
Favourite maps: 9,15,23,26,29. Maps 7 and 18 are the only ones that I didn't like in the set.

[tourniquet]

^^ Ah ok, thats all i was worried about.

[scifista42]

I'm having trouble finishing MAP30. I've killed all monsters except 8. Then I've been exploring the map for quite a while, nothing was happening. Then I discovered the Invulnerability secret, which revealed Archviles. I've killed them. Now the automap tells me that there are 2 monsters left alive. I don't know how to proceed to them, though. I'm playing in Zandronum.

The map is quiet at this point, no active monsters or spawners in the playable area:

[scifista42]

tourniquet said:

Hm not that i question your opinion scifista i really appreciate honest feedback. But i just wonder why you voted for Sunlust last month when you actually don't like this type of gameplay or Ribbiks maps in general. Seems a bit odd to me.

I wanted to try playing Sunlust on low difficulty, HNTR at maximum. I've enjoyed its first maps when I've played them. Perhaps I hoped that Sunlust would remain fun to play on low difficulties, or that it would gradually introduce me to an easier form of the aforementioned gameplay and learn its fun factor.

What I said about NOVA II MAP29 was based on my feelings that I gained during playing this very map. Although I'm trying to, I can't always describe my impressions well, all I know is that I feel them. They're nothing fabricated out of principle. The fact that Ribbiks-style maps are not my taste comes from my experience, that's why I mentioned it.

dannebubinga said:

Sounds like you need to play more maps like this to get some practice ;)

And what do you mean "not rewarding"? How do you feel rewarded after killing 2 hell Knights with ssg compared to have controlled a horde of cacos and taking them down with RL while you are being sniped by 1 cyberdemon and 2 mancubus?! Now that's something rewarding to pull off I tell you.

I agree, but I mean this: Reward comes after challenge. Theoretically, the bigger challenge, the bigger reward. But if the challenge is too high for me to withstand, it's not a challenge but a suffering that I rather don't want to endure, regardless on the reward. In this case, the suffering comes not only from the challenge itself, but maybe even more importantly from the appearance and arrangement of the challenge. I've tried to explain it, maybe I didn't suffice. I can't describe it simply, but I can simply say that maps like these are not my preference.

[Demonologist]

@ dannebubinga: "Practice! Practice is fun, and good for you! Everything is fun if you just practice!"

I'd make this brilliant (not joking here) statement my signature should I care for that sort of thing, heh. The best guideline ever to be found in a PWAD readme file.

[SuperCupcakeTactics]

In map15 you can pass through this line, not sure if it's intentional though (for convenience, probably not, but maybe :P)

[TheOrganGrinder]

MAP29: Anaemia

Oof. Bit of a mixed bag, this one.

Let's start with the good: this map is gorgeous, making absolutely the most of Doom's engine in its depicting of a brooding, gothic Hell-cathedral of red stone and metal. You can just about smell the brimstone and feel the warmth of the metallic structural members as you pick your way through its confines; the scale of it is grand, with an enormous circular hub branching off into three different 'chapels' of somewhat distinctive flavour (I've been thinking of the yellow key area as 'cavern,' the blue key area as 'yard,' and the red key area as 'hypostyle') before the player opens up the final concourse to the exit. It's a very classical style of Hell; the original Doom might be criticised for its somewhat schizophrenic third episode and lack of a consistent aesthetic to the Hell levels, but here, it's a consistently styled and interconnected complex of very believable torture chambers and halls of profane worship. I'm somewhat tempted to try it again (on a lower difficulty level!) in GZDoom or some other port with similar lighting/palette handling to get a better appreciation for the predominantly red colour scheme, which I'm not convinced is done any favours by Doom's tendency to reduce red to shades of brown rather quickly as distance increases and light levels fade.

Unfortunately, the map is packed with the sort of gameplay I just don't much care for, dominated by locked-room scenarios with major caches of health and armour offered up more as a pacing mechanism than as supplies or rewards. I complained about the overuse of locked-room ambushes when discussing tourniquet's MAP17 contribution and this is more of the same, but cranked up to 11 in every respect: more real estate with more locked encounters using more monsters. It all gets a bit crushingly relentless before the final slog through the key-locked concourse even begins. I got to the eastern end of the concourse and did my best to make it to the teleporter at the southern terminus as little-scathed as possible, exiting the level of 50% health, 30% armour, and frankly exhausted.

As a more general observation about locked-room setups and other very orchestrated encounters, I think what confounds me about them is that the player is often denied the opportunity to outsmart the encounter; instead, it's engaged with purely on the map author's terms, and since said map author has basically infinite power, the results often feel capricious and cruel rather than entertaining. Honestly, my greatest feeling of triumph came during an early stage of the concourse battle, simply from the fact that I was given an opportunity to duck out of the concourse and back into the hub to dissect the oncoming cacodemon swarm at my own pace and from a position of my own choosing.

I think this is a beautiful, painstaking, and exceptionally well-crafted piece of work which unfortunately I don't think I'll ever feel the urge to replay.

[mouldy]

scifista42 said:

I'm having trouble finishing MAP30.

I just tested it in zandronum and the final boss isn't teleporting in. There is a door he is meant to open and he isn't opening it for some reason.

Any ideas?

[dobu gabu maru]

scifista42 said:

I wanted to try playing Sunlust on low difficulty, HNTR at maximum.

That's a good idea. I think some people have a higher threshold for pain which allows them to hone their skill on harder maps, but I personally think that it's better to decrease the difficulty rather than quit the map and potentially not come back. Sometimes you can appreciate the design of a map more when you don't feel the author is trying to kill you around every corner (and for some people, the opposite is true)

MAP30: Nova II ain’t over yet! Despite having a lot of big showpieces in the set, mouldy’s map remains quite memorable, closing the journey out on a wild ‘n gruesome orgy of projectiles. Obsidian helped tweak the special boss monster to give it a little more flair, but the layout and design is pure mouldy. I think he’d be proud in that every time I’ve played this map I just ran through it and hit switches (letting infighting do most of my work). This time however I decided to change it up this time and proceed slowly—safe to say, it was a lot more calm and manageable. The finale is definitely the focal point of the map as things get really manic, especially when your priorities are torn between clearing out the revenant riffraff or slaying the Heirophant to clear the map. A very fitting closer to the set that knows how to keep you entertained.

Couple things. I think this grating should be impassable, and on Zdoom 2.5.0 on my mac, the final Heirophant never shows up for his ass whoopin’—I'm assuming it's the same door problem as in Zandronum.

Overall, I think we did a pretty great job with NOVA II. It’s hard to say how I’d feel about the mapset if I wasn’t a part of it—I handpicked which maps got to stay and organized their slot allotment myself, so my involvement was inextricably linked to it (plus replaying them so much tends to increase their fondness). While playing I initially thought E2 had the strongest collection of maps, but upon completion I find that the chaotic highs of E3 definitely make the wad for me (though I suppose I’m disposed towards the works of cannonball, mouldy, Ribbiks and myself :P). It’s not a cohesive collection of maps but we never set out to make NOVA II specifically like that; hopefully there’s enough variation in here that anyone that plays it will find something they like. Congrats to all the newbies for the hard work!

[Jaxxoon R]

I'm so slow and lazy I wonder why I even try.

[tourniquet]

dobu gabu maru said:

Couple things. I think this grating should be impassable, and on Zdoom 2.5.0 on my mac, the final Heirophant never shows up for his ass whoopin’—I'm assuming it's the same door problem as in Zandronum.

Appears to be an issue that got fixed in later versions, tried the map in 2.7.1 and everything works fine. Checked the map and i don't see any technial issues with the monster controlled mechanisms. Perhaps we should add a note about using the lastest version in the text file. No clue about Zandronum though.

[Breezeep]

I'd like to nominate The Rebirth by Vader.

[scifista42]

If a DEHACKED entity is based on anything other than a monster (for example on a decoration), it will not be able to open doors on its own in ZDoom-based ports - but ZDoom 2.7.1 appears to have fixed it.

[mouldy]

I'll let obsidian figure that one out then.

[scifista42]

It can be fixed on the mapper's side by having another (normal) monster to open the door for him.

[mouldy]

Yeah that would be easier actually, i'll sort it out.

[SoundofDoomDoors]

"MAP30 was a boss shooter with what I THINK was an actual boss. I'm assuming the map ended when I killed the orange guy with all the HP that spawned in at the end with all the different attacks. I don't think I killed the IoS. I'm always prepared to hate maps that include the Icon, but I liked this one. The flying orange guys with homing rockets reminded me of the jetpack skellies we're (probably) getting in Doom 4. Was that what inspired it? Now I want to play Going Down."

The final comment isn't a nomination for next month. I know the DWMC has already played Going Down, I just want to get to it someday.

Now that we've reached the end, here are a few of my picks. You could think of them as not-cacowards given to the month's wad, celebrating what I liked best about it (and what killed me the most). The categories are subject to change every month.

Best start: 12
Best ending: 29
Best visuals: 29
Hardest level: 29
Hardest section: 32's ending
Most deaths: 29 or 23
Favorite short level: 16
Favorite long level: 17 (except for the MM)
Creativity award: 30's boss, 28's multi-approach church fight

[scifista42]

MAP30 - "Legion" by mouldy

I've replayed the map in ZDoom 2.7.1, due to not being able to progress in my playthrough in Zandronum. This map was relatively pretty hard, but also fun. The symmetry seemed fitting and well implemented in regards of monster placement, so that I didn't mind it for once. I also liked the boss - I've just got a cosmetic remark: If only he looked bigger, for better sense of epicness. His final form still fell down relatively easily, after I waited for him to start infighting and stop caring about my presence, then I spammed him with BFG from close range. I needed a few attempts to do it successfully without dying first, though - the risk was appropriate, and the victory rewarding. This map makes good usage of Archviles and the mini-bosses too, but I feel that both could have been even better and more epic. Anyway, good finale.

[mouldy]

MAP30 - "Legion" by mouldy

I guess I should say some stuff about this map since I made it. Basically its an extended boss fight, I made it small and simple because I prefer those kind of map30s, and the boss itself which obsidian made is quite small as bosses go. Story-wise, this castle houses some kind of diabolical machinery that does something evil, I'm not entirely sure what. Because his first form is quite weak I thought it would be fun to have a whole load of them, as if he has used evil magic science to create clones of himself. I'd agree that it would be nice if the boss was bigger, just to stand out from all the carnage of the final attack wave. Its a cool boss to fight though, I like his green missile stream.

The secret invul is a troll move on my part, its probably more dangerous than useful.

So that concludes Nova 2, its a decent set of maps. Given the expertise of the nova crew I would expect nothing less, there's certainly more wheat than chaff in here. One thing I miss from the original Nova is that there were more newbie mappers in that project, and newbies tend to come up with less conventional design choices at times. Having said that I think the first project was also blessed with quite a talented set of newbs, and had a few years to find them, whereas this one had a much more regimented turnaround. But thats a very minor issue, and there are still plenty of unusual ideas here, from some imaginative mappers.

I just realised I missed map32, but I've played it a couple of times and commented on the various parts in the project thread. One day I'll get a new laptop that will run it properly.