Mutiny [Community Project]

[AD_79]

double post oh noes

What's the midi situation right now? I don't think a fully original soundtrack will end up happening. I was thinking that maybe we could pull tracks from classic 90's megawads, in particular some of the more under-appreciated midis from that era. There's a bunch of stuff in Strain, for example, that I'd say would classify as that.

[baja blast rd.]

AD_79 said:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/106557511/mut11_ad79_40oz_v2.wad

Here's The Furnaces with difficulty settings. It could probably use some better balancing in places.

Regarding multiplayer thing placement: uhhh I'd like to request someone else do that. I'm not good with that sort of thing :P

FDA: http://www.mediafire.com/download/p8sn6j4h6hy8sah/mut11ad40_rdwpa_fda.lmp

That YK ambush seemed quite mean with all those spectres. I'm not sure I would have survived it if I hadn't found the secret blueberry.

Health balance seemed fine, some surplus to help with the damaging floors. Map could use quite a bit less ammo, given the early berserk. I was topped out on bullets/shells for much of the playthrough. I had a lot of rockets, too, but more because I didn't use them (although it does seem as if the RL would have been preferable to the PR for the two big encounters).

Black rock was damaging too in places, which surprised me. The red flat right before the first cave area isn't damaging, however, which might mess with expectations.

I enjoyed the map overall. Favorite encounter was the faux-teleport. I don't recall the secret with a few plasma cells and some monsters being hard to spot and would kind of have preferred to get the soulsphere there (with the YK encounter being easier in that case, since it wouldn't be available before it). A 64x64 cubby seems a bit undignified for a goodie that useful.

[baja blast rd.]

FDA for map05 of the alpha, recorded yesterday. (I skipped over map04 because of the talk of it being unfinishable.)

http://www.mediafire.com/download/14fis3n57nvz2x3/muta05_rdwpa_fda.lmp

Please don't watch this. This is the worst I've played in a while. I've finally summoned the strength to post it. :D I managed to limp through the map despite the scores of unforced errors, near-death on three separate occasions.

The cyber fight is nerfable if you hide in that little cubby while everything infights. Luckily I managed to realize that because I certainly wouldn't have survived it otherwise. The flying monsters with their unseeable infinitely tall blockage also need to go or be reduced -- it would feel bullshitty to die that way. Rest was fine.

[Obsidian]

Hey Jon, did you ever end up rigging up some boss sprites?

[baja blast rd.]

Map04 FDA: http://www.mediafire.com/download/11ihow4g2dcoxm5/muta04_rdwpa_fda.lmp

(This is a boring 38-minute FDA. I didn't get lost but I was in no hurry. Probably no point in watching.)

The high quantity of plasma ammo in this map messed with my expectations and had me anticipating a storm that never came, thus making everything feel underwhelming. I was expecting a big warp-in after the YK in particular. Given the monster balance that was actually encountered, I would have preferred to get the RL earlier instead, pretty much never get the PR + cells, and in place of those get more rocket ammo. If the RL were moved to the current PR location, the trap that's sprung would make a good gibfest. This map seems to be a lot better as a RL-centric map: lots of opportunities for long-range fire, for gibbing clusters, etc. The PR to me is more of a 'panic'-style weapon, one that feels like overkill in this sort of frontal low-pressure combat but is also not really effective against many of the snipers. The absence of secrets was also glaring, considering that there were a lot of cool jumping angles in the outdoor area. Every trap is escapable and bottleneckable -- would have appreciated a couple of lock-ins. Favorite part was the surprise caco trap, and that a berserk pack is given. There was never any actual need to punch anything, but Tysoning is fun.

[molten_]

hey I'm alive

played this on prboom+ 2.5.1.4, ultra-violence

map01 fda
good starting map, I liked the intentional (at least I assume?) sector bleeding to create the illusion of light reflecting off the water, I don't think I've ever seen that before. I didn't like how the stairway of crates in the cacodemon "pit" had an unavoidable medkit placed directly in front of them. that could be easily fixed however. I'd also suggest maybe altering the ledges surrounding the cacodemon pit because (as you can see in the demo) I got caught on them by what I assume were monsters and couldn't move. overall this was a good map, though.

[40oz]

Thanks gaspe, rdwpa and molten_ for the demos and feedback. I haven't been able to watch them yet but I will have time to watch all demos tomorrow.

I'd like to roll out the next version of the alpha/beta whatever you want to call it next Tuesday, April 5th. So if anyone is currently working on a map, try to get your current version of it in before then. Its okay if its still not done or perfect, there will likely be a at least three or four more testing versions and hot fixes before official release. I just dont want to have to bother testers with having to download multiple files during testing stages.

In the following testing version I want to develop gameplay a little more and eventually start exploring continuous play so that the maps can be played just as fairly all the way through as they can from pistol start (mostly this means trying to lower the players carried ammunition as low as possible before completing each map)

And then later work on developing multiplayer settings such as storming extra monsters in via teleport ambushes for coop settings and trying to isolate a piece of the map as a deathmatch arena. I'll discuss this further as the time comes.

[baja blast rd.]

Map06 FDA: http://www.mediafire.com/download/rcxhqjj8qdh7pqe/muta06_rdwpa_fda.lmp

Not the botchfest that's the map05 FDA, but I do make a couple of completely retarded unforced errors (first against the four revs, and then against mancs in the big fight with the closet full of revs -_-). Need to stop doing that lol.

I think you can move some of the health afterwards to that fight. It's probably the most dangerous fight in the level, and I didn't take much damage in the level after that.

Anyway, pretty cool map. Only parts that seem deserving of criticism are the spiderdemon (pointless, makes the back-end of the map drag since it's followed by non-threatening imps) and that some of the frontal battles reward heavy door-camping. The area with cacos and HK/rev/mancs on turrets in particular shuts you in if you enter, and made me glad I didn't and also decide to door camp as much as possible if any similar setups came up later.

[dt_]

Actually, having watched the map05 FDA (wasn't too bad apart from getting lost a couple of times) it's brought a couple of things to my attention to alter for the next alpha. Thanks for that, will watch this one tomorrow

[baja blast rd.]

Map14 FDA: http://www.mediafire.com/download/olqwm11ugsdxd4e/muta14_rdwpa_fda%282%29.lmp

Lost souls almost killed me, lol.

Jumped ahead because I wanted to play this after I was warmed-up. Pretty great level. Earlygoing is fairly low-pressure. The cyber wasn't really firing at all, which is a big reason. I assumed at first that he was aggro'd at something out of his los, but it turns out that he never fired a shot, ever. I'm playing on glBoom+ -cl2 but I can't imagine that being why. Things really kick up though. I expected the last fight to have more than one arch-vile. I thought afterwards that maybe the cyber was meant to be a part of it instead, but on a follow-up playthrough I noticed that the cyber is lowered, where he can be easily disposed of, before that fight is even triggered. So yeah, that fight could probably be buffed a bit.

[dt_]

Updated version of map09

Bit more detail to the surroundings, an effort at skill modes, no more fall damage/getting stuck in silly sectors

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0e4z8u8v4t7zvon/MUT09_dt_doomkid_impboy4.wad?dl=1

[Fonze]

Fonze said:

MAP07:

Did review for MAP07. Didn't finish; ran out of ammo, though I did better on ammo on previous runs, so perhaps more isn't necessary, though it did get pretty tight in a few spots.

[baja blast rd.]

I'll play the next version of map07. That one sounds scary. :p

Here's some notes on map08 and map09.

Map08: FDA. Pretty cool map. Only thing I remember standing out as bad was the cyberdemon. It's basically a solo fight. I stood far back and chipped away at him with rockets and the single shotgun, since I saw basically no reason to get closer and fight in the semi-awkward semi-cramped area closer to him. This sort of setup -- the tedious strategy is the completely safe one, the timely strategy carries a risk of bullshit like taking splash damage from the elevated cyber -- is one of my least favorite.

Map09: FDA. Really annoying map. The falling death effect is nonsense and there's no sort of warning whatsoever. And then there's a forced platforming bit over a 16-by-16 strip of land with intrusive doorstop geometry that you can fall on, while a distant arachnotron snipes at you. Not to mention stuff like windows you can't actually fire rockets through but can damage yourself on. It seemed like the level was designed to be annoying. Distant snipers (e.g. the chaingunner that first appears in the RK section, and the chaingunners at the exit) are a trend. And the player can easily get to the end with predominantly rockets, and use those to try to kill the chaingunners, in which case there's a possibility that he'll BLOW HIMSELF UP on the instapop exit hell knights. This didn't actually happen to me, but it's the sort of thing one needs to account for.

Managed to finish after one (falling) death. The platforming was easily my least favorite part of the level. The level actually has some good qualities -- the spiderdemon fight is certainly in the top 10% of spiderdemon usages, and some of the design choices are cool, but bleh.

[dt_]

rdwpa said:

Here's some notes on map09.

Yeah the fall damage etc wasn't exactly a winner, and would break any kind of coop play. Have a quick go at the updated version of the map and see if it plays any better

[baja blast rd.]

Since it's a standalone, I opened the new version of map10 in 40oz's post to see if I would have to use the -nomusic parameter (due to D_RUNNIN), and I was instantly clawed to death by imps.

I played it 'normally' several times and took somewhere between 18 and 100 damage every time. There is no strategy that allows one to consistently avoid usually significant (30%+) damage, if the RNG decides it should happen. Even with preknowledge, there is also no strategy that allows one to avoid death if the RNG decides that all three imps should immediately surround the player, blocking off any escape routes, and attack.

I was really curious who thought this was a good idea, because it's honestly retarded -- but opening up GZDB, it seems like the problem is that a player one start was accidentally added to the map. There is a row of four player starts in a much more sensible location, and that one rogue player start in the location of the aforementioned imp gangbang.

[baja blast rd.]

dt_ said:

Yeah the fall damage etc wasn't exactly a winner, and would break any kind of coop play. Have a quick go at the updated version of the map and see if it plays any better

Ugh, sorry lol. I somehow missed that post.

[baja blast rd.]

Yeah it does. Distant 'trons are a bit tedious to dispose of and the megasphere is overkill for the spiderdemon fight, even if it's intended as an 'unmarked secret', especially with the soulsphere and blue armor given previously and the amount of stimpacks/medkits scattered throughout the map. I think a soulsphere would be more proportionate.

[dt_]

Haha @ the imp gangbang, yeah think there was a misplaced start point; I was even more surprised than you upon playing the updated version, having placed those imps there myself about 6 months ago

[MrGlide]

this is what I have so far, got a bit till it's done but I like the way it's turning out, some of the textures are place holder for now. https://www.dropbox.com/s/wnbzl40hzn6pct8/mutanytriton4116.wad?dl=0

[Fonze]

Fonze said:

Map08: ...

Put up review for MAP08; tbh, I didn't mind the cyber's placement at all. He wasn't high enough to cause much splash damage from hitting the floor unless the player steps within 5-10 feet of him; somewhere around there it starts to become a problem. But the slight angle, I felt, made the fight more fun, though in the demos I made silly mistakes and had to cheese it for some of the fight. I also really liked the curved hallway with the revs. Good stuff y'all!

[NoneeLlama]

rdwpa said:

I was really curious who thought this was a good idea, because it's honestly retarded -- but opening up GZDB, it seems like the problem is that a player one start was accidentally added to the map. There is a row of four player starts in a much more sensible location, and that one rogue player start in the location of the aforementioned imp gangbang.

WHOOPS, my bad! I left that in by mistake while testing the other part of the map.
Here's a quick fix: http://www.mediafire.com/download/j5xi1iqc55cdi4t/mut10V013_scifista421_NoneeLlama_dt_.wad

[40oz]

Thanks rdwpa and fonze for your helpful demos and reviews. Ive been jotting down notes for changes to make to my maps.

The next alpha may not be a major update and some maps might not be changed at all. If you've already played the maps so far, you'll probably not need to record another demo or write another review. I'll make note of the changes ive made to my maps that you can see and if the other mappers could, I'd advise them to do the same. All id ask is if you could peek at the maps in an editor have a quick run through to ensure that the change made is valid or if there was a problem you had with the map previously that was not yet resolved.

If any other playtesters would like to chime in and post their thoughts on the maps, please do so! Wed like to have a lot of eyes on these maps and refine them to be the best they can be.

MrGlide I'm going to reserve your map for the MAP03 slot and table the current MAP03 for something else. (In the future I'll seriously consider having a "Mutiny Mission Pack" to run in conjunction with Mutiny and fill the remaining 16 mapslots)

If any mapper is willing to assist MrGlide with his map, that would be a tremendous help! (it is part of the rules that each map must have more than one person working on it)

Thanks again everyone for your help so far :)

[EffinghamHuffnagel]

NoneeLlama said:

WHOOPS, my bad! I left that in by mistake while testing the other part of the map.
Here's a quick fix: http://www.mediafire.com/download/j5xi1iqc55cdi4t/mut10V013_scifista421_NoneeLlama_dt_.wad

Using ZDoom on UV. I haven't been following this project. This is the first Mutiny map I've tried. Very pretty texture set. Takes a little getting used to. Some textures which look like tech lifts or doors are actually just walls.

So this is the updated MAP10. Okay. In general I liked it. As I said, I wasn't used to the textures, so I got lost and backtracked probably more than I should have. Not sure about the RL/SSG "Only Get One" choice to start. I suppose on a Pistol start rather than continuous play it works. Of course I grabbed the RL since I assumed I'd grab a dropped Shotgun soon.

The biggest thing is that the map can't legally be finished. The exit door sector is not tagged as a D door or S switch and won't open.

I wondered why the hidden AV closet, sector 643, was tagged as secret since there's nothing in it but a candle. I came back later to see a hidden door, also tagged as secret, had opened. The teleporter led to a hidden area, tagged as secret, with a Megasphere on a small platform, also tagged as secret. So four secrets for the price of one. I laughed, but I don't think that was intentional.

Another big thing; I got stuck upstairs in the other secret area. Linedef tag 27 is a non-functioning switch. I gather it's supposed to open the barrier in front of the exit doors.

I don't know how to get to the backpack. There is an obvious lift there, but it's down and untagged, so there's no way to raise it. Then I thought it must be intentional. I saw that you can run across the canal from sector 264, the raised platform under the windows, but I couldn't find a way up there. All the windows in the room above are tagged impassable so you can't drop onto it from there either. But that would be an interesting way to get the backpack without the lift. And make it a valid secret.

I'd probably change either the water around the exit area to nukage or all the canal water to brown slime. Having both damaging and non-damaging water in the same map is odd. Maybe the damaging nuclear waste water could glow/pulsate. Isn't there a boom-transfer-lights-to-make-just-floors-glow-linedef-thingy?

I'll have to play the alpha now. All in all, fun. Except for the Blue Key/Three AV experience. Geez, that was painful. Killed myself with rockets numerous times.

[40oz]

Thanks for the review EffinghamHuffnagel! Normally id ask that you post to mention that you want to be a tester first, but you were a godsend during Plutonia 1024 and Id be glad to have you test for this project.

I added your name with a link to your profile in the testers list, so keep an eye on your PM inbox in case any mappers ask you for clarification on your reviews.

Also new alpha version is coming out on April 5th so keep an eye out for that, (the map you reviewed above will be the same version) so you can get a fresh take on the maps.

[dt_]

Guys, thanks for your time playing through map10, but it is quite a way off finished, and it's really unlikely that ill have it finished by Tuesday to be quite honest. I'm on it though. Don't bother reviewing it yet, there are some major changes to be made

[baja blast rd.]

Map12: FDA.

This map really needs another rocket launcher. Somewhere, anywhere. A huge chunk of my 50:52 playtime* is spent doing things like single-shotgunning the revenant clown party or waiting for arch-viles to blast damage themselves to death on monsters they are infighting -- scenarios where the RL could have been really useful. There are duplicates of other weapons laying around, just not that one for some reason.

And I really think "Play the fight straight up or cheese it and suffer through tedium" is bad, a la the YK encounter. Part of the fun of FDA-ing lengthy maps without saves is cheesing what you can to increase chances of survival. Being punished for that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This seems to be one of those maps where the author(s) did their testing with saves before the more dangerous encounters -- it seems "out of touch" with how people might approach it without them.


*Unsuccessful 3:51 attempt, successful 47:01 attempt.

[baja blast rd.]

Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of pretty good aspects about the level. I really liked the rev party and the variety of fights in and around the nukage in particular. It's just really, really important that the RL is made a lot easier to obtain.

[40oz]

There might be a safer way to articulate it, but the objective is to run up and press the switch to close the door before the revenants can get in, then deal with them later when you have better weapons. If you can do that the map is relatively safe and manageable

[baja blast rd.]

The problem wasn't that the revenants were too dangerous.

It was the clean-up phases that resulted from not having the RL. (E.g. even in the last encounter, I would have just stood my ground and spammed rockets against the viles if I had the RL, instead of retreating.)

[dt_]

Tweaked Map05, few thing/monster movements, and stuff to help make key switches etc more obvious

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q7l35e31x7p537q/MUT05_dt_.wad?dl=0

40oz, I've put another midi in this one (D_DOOM), wasn't too sure about the one you had put with it for the alpha

Will be able to work on map10 in the next few days