Hating doom is cool now?

[Avoozl]

Why do people even complain about the complainers, why don't they just ignore them?

[Voros]

My friends don't even know Doom, and don't bother to know it. They love mostly FIFA(not me). One of them said he saw the reveal and said it suck(but I can't trust him since he always lies to get attention!). But I managed to install Doom 1 (secretly) in our ICT lab at my school and one of friends played it...it was too hard for him! Just saying maybe gamers now a days prefer easy gaming with less puzzles and problems.

[VGamingJunkie]

GoatLord said:

Interesting, maybe we should pester the id guys on Twitter about releasing a "grown up" version of Snap-Map for more in-depth modders.

An ID equivalent of the Hammer Editor would be good. At the very least, I'm hoping Snap's limitations for how complex you can make your maps are at least on par with the complexity found with the game's actual maps. It'd be BS if ID forced you into a limit that's far more restrictive than their own levels.

[Captain Toenail]

Voros said:

Just saying maybe gamers now a days prefer easy gaming with less puzzles and problems.

I created some easy-peasy MarioMaker courses for beginners with very little hazards, and they have less than 40% completion rates. Most players hit the first enemy or miss the first jump and quit straight away. It's quite sad.

[Clonehunter]

Hard is bad. Hands must be held. Blame liberal society.

[Voros]

Captain Toenail said:

I created some easy-peasy MarioMaker courses for beginners with very little hazards, and they have less than 40% completion rates. Most players hit the first enemy or miss the first jump and quit straight away. It's quite sad.

Oh the shame, the shame...Is CoD really that easy to master?Easier than Doom?

[Captain Toenail]

Voros said:

Oh the shame, the shame...Is CoD really that easy to master?Easier than Doom?

U wot?

[quakke]

Voros said:

My friends don't even know Doom, and don't bother to know it. They love mostly FIFA(not me). One of them said he saw the reveal and said it suck(but I can't trust him since he always lies to get attention!). But I managed to install Doom 1 (secretly) in our ICT lab at my school and one of friends played it...it was too hard for him! Just saying maybe gamers now a days prefer easy gaming with less puzzles and problems.

Well, if you forceteach (modern game industry..) ppl to get by with regenerating health, forced slowpaced aimdownsights gameplay and whatever 2weapon loadout thing, then I guess it's possible for ppl to really start thinking that once they master those mechanics, "that's it". Fun thing when you put them in Quake or any other real arena fps and they will literally roll on floor because their regenerating health skill doesn't benefit there at all. Only thing in those older fps games they might have some experience with, is if they atleast learned some sort of mouse aiming. Them newer games don't really even have any kinda map control/pickups since its all loadout based and you don't even need to worry about your hp since it regenerates..

[VGamingJunkie]

You'd think more people would be familiar with the concept of static health considering most genres still use static health. It's like their only experience with shooting in games at all is war shooters.

[Koko Ricky]

Captain Toenail said:

I created some easy-peasy MarioMaker courses for beginners with very little hazards, and they have less than 40% completion rates. Most players hit the first enemy or miss the first jump and quit straight away. It's quite sad.

We're a dying breed, maybe? I was playing Blood the other day, and I must have spent about half an hour just playing the same three minutes of the map over and over, trying to get to a point where I could whoop everyone's ass in a timely manner. I guess a lot of younger gamers don't have that kind of patience and would rather the game basically ease them into the experience so they won't die as often.

[SYS]

There will always be those that don't like what others like. While it would be nice if we could all join hands and like the exact same shit, this is not the case. If they choose to reject the joy that is Doom - so be it.

[snapshot]

Voros said:

Oh the shame, the shame...Is CoD really that easy to master?Easier than Doom?

Mah, COD was alright, however it has a lot of odd/unnecessary stuff , Also you can't convince the whole community to like what you liked , That's one of society rules

[Optimus]

Well, I am not sure about Doom 4, it seems to have relied in showing too much violence to make people cheer up, of course everyone has different ideas about what made the original Doom great, but what most if not all FPS miss these days and Doom have (and also many other Doom clones of the time) is interesting level design.

But that's how I felt about the recent trend of "check our indie FPS, we are oldschool!". I felt the same for new Shadow Warrior, new Rise of the Triad, Bullestorm, Hard Reset, new Wolfenstein. Everybody is sticking the "oldschool" title, and it's easy to make choices in your gameplay like non-regen health, no reloading (I don't mind either), hordes of monsters, not taking themselves seriously (I like this one) but nobody does level design anymore. For example, you have Bulletstorm mock modern FPS with their prank Duty Calls, but then I played Bulletstorm and it was so extremely linear and filled with quicktime events that it's ridiculous. Maybe they all have some of the good tropes, faster walking, arcade feeling, not trying to be realistic, hordes of monsters, but they just lack that feeling of original Doom or Build engine games where you wanted to explore the levels and find what is behind the corner or discover all the secrets. Then there are Serious Sam or Painkiller, big open spaces with hordes of monster and fun play, but not interesting level design in inner spaces.

So, yeah I don't expect much from Doom 4 either but new Shadow Warrior or Bulletstorm or New Wolfenstein didn't impress me much, besides being somewhat more fun than realistic military shooters. I think the last one that really amazed me was Deus Ex. FPS level design is so bad (or gamers don't want to backtrack anymore, I see many modern gamers try Doom and getting lost too easily, while I have evolved into easily navigating my way out the most obscure maps) that even when I retried playing the very awful Daikatana, I thought some of the secrets and map designs where quite interesting actually! I know I talk like a purist here :P

p.s. I will still play Doom 4 though. I tried the Alpha and it was fun, even though it's just deathmatch. I wanted to check the single player, maybe in the Beta?

[AirRaid]

Optimus said:

But that's how I felt about the recent trend of "check our indie FPS, we are oldschool!". I felt the same for new Shadow Warrior, new Rise of the Triad, Bullestorm, Hard Reset, new Wolfenstein. Everybody is sticking the "oldschool" title, and it's easy to make choices in your gameplay like non-regen health, no reloading (I don't mind either), hordes of monsters, not taking themselves seriously (I like this one) but nobody does level design anymore. For example, you have Bulletstorm mock modern FPS with their prank Duty Calls, but then I played Bulletstorm and it was so extremely linear and filled with quicktime events that it's ridiculous. Maybe they all have some of the good tropes, faster walking, arcade feeling, not trying to be realistic, hordes of monsters, but they just lack that feeling of original Doom or Build engine games where you wanted to explore the levels and find what is behind the corner or discover all the secrets. Then there are Serious Sam or Painkiller, big open spaces with hordes of monster and fun play, but not interesting level design in inner spaces.

I'll give you most of that except for Wolfenstein: The New Order. That game had some great level design with multiple paths and all sorts of secrets hidden away.

[MrDeAD1313]

Optimus said:

but what most if not all FPS miss these days and Doom have (and also many other Doom clones of the time) is interesting level design.

This is my main concern with the singleplayer, though it looks pretty wide open for exploration and secret hunting from what they've shown in the reveal. And after what I've seen in the alpha, all of those platforms and catwalks will be reachable.

[quakke]

Optimus said:

Well, I am not sure about Doom 4, it seems to have relied in showing too much violence to make people cheer up, of course everyone has different ideas about what made the original Doom great, but what most if not all FPS miss these days and Doom have (and also many other Doom clones of the time) is interesting level design.

But that's how I felt about the recent trend of "check our indie FPS, we are oldschool!". I felt the same for new Shadow Warrior, new Rise of the Triad, Bullestorm, Hard Reset, new Wolfenstein. Everybody is sticking the "oldschool" title, and it's easy to make choices in your gameplay like non-regen health, no reloading (I don't mind either), hordes of monsters, not taking themselves seriously (I like this one) but nobody does level design anymore. For example, you have Bulletstorm mock modern FPS with their prank Duty Calls, but then I played Bulletstorm and it was so extremely linear and filled with quicktime events that it's ridiculous. Maybe they all have some of the good tropes, faster walking, arcade feeling, not trying to be realistic, hordes of monsters, but they just lack that feeling of original Doom or Build engine games where you wanted to explore the levels and find what is behind the corner or discover all the secrets. Then there are Serious Sam or Painkiller, big open spaces with hordes of monster and fun play, but not interesting level design in inner spaces.

So, yeah I don't expect much from Doom 4 either but new Shadow Warrior or Bulletstorm or New Wolfenstein didn't impress me much, besides being somewhat more fun than realistic military shooters. I think the last one that really amazed me was Deus Ex. FPS level design is so bad (or gamers don't want to backtrack anymore, I see many modern gamers try Doom and getting lost too easily, while I have evolved into easily navigating my way out the most obscure maps) that even when I retried playing the very awful Daikatana, I thought some of the secrets and map designs where quite interesting actually! I know I talk like a purist here :P

p.s. I will still play Doom 4 though. I tried the Alpha and it was fun, even though it's just deathmatch. I wanted to check the single player, maybe in the Beta?

Incase you haven't seen my thread, you should look it up because I drew the shown second level singleplayer map back then and it proves to be rather non-linear. New doom actually seems to get the closest to that abstract/mazey level design of the 90's fps', unlike indeed all these "old school" fps like hard reset or whatever shadow warrior reboot. I actually do think doom 4 will show em' how it's done since the level design wasn't bad.

Yeah new shadow warrior was absolutely horrible and don't even get me started on new order.. :D Basically if you are interested in getting something of the sort we have not gotten in longtime, there are few games atm in development and one released.

Wrack (2014)
http://store.steampowered.com/app/253610/

- level design is ok but not truly impressive since it's linearish but still gives choice atleast..

GibHard (TBA)
http://www.gibhard.com/

STRAFE (TBA)
http://www.strafe1996.com/

AirRaid said:

I'll give you most of that except for Wolfenstein: The New Order. That game had some great level design with multiple paths and all sorts of secrets hidden away.

I completely disagree. It was nothing more than few bigger areas connected by completely linear corridors. Secrets in it were absolutely pathetic because those were like the easy level secrets back in the day..

[AirRaid]

quakke said:

STRAFE (TBA)
http://www.strafe1996.com/

STRAFE has procedurally generated levels, how can you call that out as a pinnacle of modern level design?

[quakke]

I never said that it is pinnacle of level design, I said "something of the sort". Also incase you have followed the Strafe development, you would know that the game is extremely Doom and Quake inspired and thus has a certain goal with their level design. Reason its procedurally generated is because they are trying to make a Doom style map that can be played infinitely. Not one where you recognize rooms and stuff but where the map actually significantly changes everytime you play it and thus is new experience.

[AirRaid]

STRAFE's gameplay is very reminiscent of Quake era, yes, that's exactly what it's going for. But you were talking about level design specifically, about multiple paths, non-linearity and well crafted secrets. From what I've seen STRAFE has none of those things.

[VGamingJunkie]

AirRaid said:

STRAFE has procedurally generated levels, how can you call that out as a pinnacle of modern level design?

One thing I will bring up is that, for a game that claims to be coming out in the 90's, it sure did push my far more modern PC more than it needed to. If this actually did come out in the 90's alongside Quake or something, I doubt computers at the time would have a chance of actually running it. It's funny when developers advertise games as retro that make modern machines sweat, the makers of Retro City being a welcome exception since they actually managed to get it to run on the NES with relatively little compromise. XD

[snapshot]

Avoozl said:

Why do people even complain about the complainers, why don't they just ignore them?

I'm doing this all the time :) , i guess they don't ignore them because people get pissed when they hear incorrect stuff told about what they like .

[quakke]

AirRaid said:

STRAFE's gameplay is very reminiscent of Quake era, yes, that's exactly what it's going for. But you were talking about level design specifically, about multiple paths, non-linearity and well crafted secrets. From what I've seen STRAFE has none of those things.

I guess I talked kinda misleadingly. When I talked about the non-linearity, I meant Doom 4. The other games are more of "something of the sort" and like with Wrack, "linearish but still gives choice atleast..".

I don't expect nor think that STRAFE will be like Romero's best mazey creations but like you said, it will indeed probably be more like Quake. Thats fine though, because Quake while being alot more straightforward in the map layout when compared to Doom, still atleast also had interesting level design. Granted it was no Doom at all but it still put you to think etc.. to overcome puzzles and navigate to the exit.

Already from what I've seen and played STRAFE myself, it will be alot better level design than what was in reboots of Shadow Warrior and Wolfenstein. It has some abstract angles and some actual verticality. New Order did atleast have some verticality but I still consider the maps in it very much *meh* at best.

[Voros]

Strafe is really boring right now. I hope it gets a story soon...and that f***ing glitch of spawning outside the map.
No ones hating Doom, there are just unsure about the whole idea. Think:
Guy sees Doom reveal
Thinking-Wheres all the weaponary and items? Why is it so dull? What in the world are those things? Blind fireball monkeys, halloween masked rocket launcher freaks, flamethrower cyclops, blind gorillas, a giant minotaur with a green laser gun...what else? Sounds weird. Must suck then.

Bad case of misunderstanding.

Oh shit! More than a week old bump!

[VGamingJunkie]

That might explain why ID absolutely refused to show any of the footage from Quakecon, despite an overwhelmingly positive response from the people who were actually there, because the public tends to just assume that what they see is the absolute finished product and all there's going to be.

[quakke]

Voros said:

Strafe is really boring right now. I hope it gets a story soon...and that f***ing glitch of spawning outside the map.
No ones hating Doom, there are just unsure about the whole idea. Think:
Guy sees Doom reveal
Thinking-Wheres all the weaponary and items? Why is it so dull? What in the world are those things? Blind fireball monkeys, halloween masked rocket launcher freaks, flamethrower cyclops, blind gorillas, a giant minotaur with a green laser gun...what else? Sounds weird. Must suck then.

Bad case of misunderstanding.

Oh shit! More than a week old bump!

STRAFE.. Story?

Pls be kidding.

[Voros]

quakke said:

STRAFE.. Story?

Pls be kidding.

Why not? It could be something like this...
After receiving the distress call, you were forced to stay back due to the lack of weaponary.
Your allies took each one, and went in...
Few hours later, no contact could be made with your friends.
There wasnt any Communication terminals on this area due to malfunctions, and the attacked base had only destroyed ones now... Its up to you.
Looking at the destination, the Lockers, you went there and found three guns available.
Taking one, you ran towards the active teleporter, where you came in front of a room with alarms blaring and a dead body by the doorway... Kick some ass.

[VGamingJunkie]

90's fpses generally had stories, but it wasn't explained in the game itself. Usually, the story was explained in a manual or something and just implied in the game itself. For instance, Wolfenstein 3D starts you out in a cell with a dead guard, a shiv, and a pistol. It implies the actual story where BJ was captured, used a shiv on a guard, and grabbed the guard's pistol. Then there's Doom, you might not even have any idea what's going on unless you read the game's story where it explains the teleporting incident and how everyone was killed before you got there and how Doom Guy was sent there because he refused orders and all that good stuff. Strafe could use a story, just explain it on the website and/or the help section of the game. Then it'll be more authentic for a 90's fps. People just assume they had no stories just because it wasn't full on explained in the games like more modern games are, but that's not true.

[Clonehunter]

For what it has, Strafe has enough story.

Aliens or something have taken over your ship the Icarus (?), or something, and you have to kill a butt load of them. And then you have to kill more of them on some planet. End of story log.

[quakke]

MetroidJunkie said:

Doom Guy was sent there because he refused orders and all that good stuff.

That's freaking awesome :D I actually did not know that but it just fits so well and works perfectly. This kinda stuff is needed badly in modern games, not the other kidna stuff where I get to see (via playing) some quick history about how "I had a beer with my old friend in the morning at local bar". That kinda stuff is out of place.

90's fps focused on getting you in the action instantly and leaving all un-fitting chitchat dialogue and movies out of it. It's really quite amazing how they make now First Person Shooters and somehow they have to turn them into some life/movie simulations, where you have to do all kinds stuff that isn't about being in the action or looking for the way out/objective.

[AirRaid]

quakke said:

It's really quite amazing how they make now First Person Shooters and somehow they have to turn them into some life/movie simulations, where you have to do all kinds stuff that isn't about being in the action or looking for the way out/objective.

This can work quite well though in some instances, if played right. Look at Half-Life - the pre-disaster intro part works really well as a setup for what happens after. It shows you everything how it was, how it all worked, and then it all gets fucked up, and makes the invasion have more impact. Half-life was actually really good at in-world storytelling without taking the player out of the game for any meaningful length of time.

Then in HL2, they used the same tactic as a setting update, showing you what has changed, and what the world is like since you went away. HL2 took it too far though and you had sequences later which took minutes of dialog and left the player impatiently locked in a room while some people talked.