More Things That Matter About Doom

[IronDoomer]

Remember how Marty said that doom is about 3 things, Badass Demons, Big Fucking Guns, And Moving Really Really Fast, well doom is not just about those 3 things. Doom to me is about those 3 things but what also matters in doom is good level design, exploration, and fighting lots of enemy's at once, that is what matters to doom to me.

Also while we're on the subject, there's also this talk about the new doom being a push forward combat game, they also explain about why the piñata item drop mechanic is in the game, because they want to keep the action going. In my opinion Doom ISN'T REALLY about push forward combat, like I said doom is about all those things I listed above, Push forward combat in the new doom could be fine but the new item drop mechanic is what ruins it, this mechanic pretty much takes out all the challenge for the new doom. What's wrong with finding secrets and finding items to use to your advantage? Why put this dumbass mechanic into a fps it just ruins the whole point of exploration in my opinion.

So far it looks like id is ruining this amazing game series for all of us.

All the hype and excitement gone.

[Blastfrog]

This looks like a fun game, despite where it deviates from classic Doom. You want classic Doom? It's not going anywhere. This new Doom captures the spirit much better than Doom 3, IMO. They kinda both go on opposite ends of the spectrum of action/exploration.

It's not worse just because it's different, even significantly so.

IronDoomer said:

So far it looks like id is ruining this amazing game series for all of us.

All the hype and excitement gone.

CRAAWLING IN MY SKIINN

[ChickenOrBeef]

IronDoomer said:

Doom ISN'T REALLY about push forward combat

I think id knows that, and I think they're trying to make Doom 4 feel a little different than classic Doom.

[MFG38]

IronDoomer said:

So far it looks like id is ruining this amazing game series for all of us.

Nope. Just you.

[kelliegator]

Not a big fan of the piñata thing but maybe it'll still be challenging on the harder modes and so far no one's said the new Doom WON'T have secrets or exploration. We can't be sure but Wolfenstein: The New Order had a lot of that and id would be mad not to pick up cues from that.

I wish I could play the game myself and provide feedback. I'm mostly interested in the movement speed, although I guess it will never be as fast as the original, that one was insane. But I recently played Killzone 3 and remembered how slow modern shooters are, so Doom 4 will probably be better than that.

[VGamingJunkie]

To me, Doom is as much about exploration as it is about killing demons. You've got these relatively big (at the time) environments to wander around in, even hunting for secrets to try to find extra items to give yourself a little edge. Thankfully, ID seems to still be going for this as they've mentioned that it'll have non-linear paths and secrets to find. I'd rather it not be a corridor shooter where you're forced along a straight line, that's a modern fps design and that's not what they're going for.

[purist]

Some people seem to have forgotten that finding secrets in the classic Doom games was simply it's own reward. There was more than enough munitions in the non secrets area that made most secrets redundant in resource terms or made the player OP.

Having health dropped by enemies does not mean there won't be secrets and having sufficient resources will not remove the incentive for those inclined to hunt secrets.

[kelliegator]

purist said:

Some people seem to have forgotten that finding secrets in the classic Doom games was simply it's own reward. There was more than enough munitions in the non secrets area that made most secrets redundant in resource terms or made the player OP.

Having health dropped by enemies does not mean there won't be secrets and having sufficient resources will not remove the incentive for those inclined to hunt secrets.

I don't entirely agree, sometimes you could find soul spheres or mega-armors, or find powerful weapons earlier than usual, which could give you an early advantage in certain areas of the games. I hope Doom 4 will do something similar.

[Tetzlaff]

That piñata mechanic works well in a dozen hack-and-slay action adventures and they still manage to reward exploration by hiding special items in the nooks and crannies of the level.

[purist]

kelliegator said:

I don't entirely agree, sometimes you could find soul spheres or mega-armors, or find powerful weapons earlier than usual, which could give you an early advantage in certain areas of the games. I hope Doom 4 will do something similar.

Well that is sort of the point I am making. In classic Doom high value items/weapons were often hidden - especially in the earlier level whilst the basic munitions required to beat the level did not require any exploring to find. There is no reason why the same won't be the case in Doom 4, with the exception being that health will be dropped by monsters rather than being left in plain sight.

It seems some complaints about the piñata style health drops assume it will negate the value of finding secrets or exploring the level but for the reasons in my posts I don't see why that would be the case.

[[MAG]Nathan]

My issues with the whole piñata mechanic is resource management.

One of the cooler, but lesser thought about challenges of the classic, is the limited resources. Ammo/health/armor/ect.

From time to time you'd have to try something a few times over. Because you needed to find a way to stretch your bullets or health or whatever. I personally love that kind of thing.

But now, so long as there are enemies, there is everything else you need. There's no responsibility when it comes to conservation on the players part.

And I really, really don't like that.

Won't stop me from buying the game though.

[VGames]

They're not getting rid of item pickups found in maps. In the first demo you clearly see the player picking up items after blowing those first few enemies away with the super shotgun. So there will be pickups. And I've seen a mega sphere sitting up high on a hard to reach place that I believe was discussed here at this forum. So secrets are in. And like somebody already said nobody has said secrets are not gonna be in game. Why add all these new movement mechanics and verticality to maps if you're not gonna have hard to reach places.

When I first played Doom way back when the 3 things Marty said Doom was all about was exactly what Doom was all about to me. All the other stuff you guys have mentioned came after wards. I didn't even know about secrets until after playing the game for a while. Killing crazy demons with cool guns while sprinting was definitely what it was all about first and foremost.

[[MAG]Nathan]

VGames said:

They're not getting rid of item pickups found in maps. In the first demo you clearly see the player picking up items after blowing those first few enemies away with the super shotgun. So there will be pickups. And I've seen a mega sphere sitting up high on a hard to reach place that I believe was discussed here at this forum. So secrets are in. And like somebody already said nobody has said secrets are not gonna be in game. Why add all these new movement mechanics and verticality to maps if you're not gonna have hard to reach places.

When I first played Doom way back when the 3 things Marty said Doom was all about was exactly what Doom was all about to me. All the other stuff you guys have mentioned came after wards. I didn't even know about secrets until after playing the game for a while. Killing crazy demons with cool guns while sprinting was definitely what it was all about first and foremost.

Wow. I missed those entirely.

That gives me so much hope though. Piñata may be a toggle able option? If not I'm sure a simple mod could be made.

Hope.

[DooM_RO]

[MAG]Nathan said:

Wow. I missed those entirely.

That gives me so much hope though. Piñata may be a toggle able option? If not I'm sure a simple mod could be made.

Hope.

Don't hope. The game was balanced around this particular mechanic. Shoving classic Doom elements where they don't fit will break the game. Same with stuff like speed. Changing the speed to be 100% classic would be like changing the tempo of a song. The monsters and their movement/tactics were balanced around that speed.

I don't think there are normal health pickups in the game but the more I think about it, the more OK I am with it.

I think the devs are trying to capture the FEEL of Doom, not make a 1:1 recreaction and that's a good thing.

[VGames]

DooM_RO said:

Don't hope. The game was balanced around this particular mechanic. Shoving classic Doom elements where they don't fit will break the game. Same with stuff like speed. Changing the speed to be 100% classic would be like changing the tempo of a song. The monsters and their movement/tactics were balanced around that speed.

I don't think there are normal health pickups in the game but the more I think about it, the more OK I am with it.

I think the devs are trying to capture the FEEL of Doom, not make a 1:1 recreaction and that's a good thing.

This is exactly what they're doing. Keeping the feel but moving on from it at the same time. It's gonna be an old but fresh experience. I can't wait.

[purist]

[MAG]Nathan said:

One of the cooler, but lesser thought about challenges of the classic, is the limited resources. Ammo/health/armor/ect.

See this is exactly what I don't find in the original game. Some PWADs maybe, but how often in the IWADs is resource management a challenge?

[Blastfrog]

purist said:

Some PWADs maybe, but how often in the IWADs is resource management a challenge?

It can be if the player isn't skilled enough. It's important to remember that the levels were designed when there was barely any such thing as an FPS genre, clumsiness and unfamiliarity would have severely impacted the way the player experienced the game.

[kelliegator]

purist said:

See this is exactly what I don't find in the original game. Some PWADs maybe, but how often in the IWADs is resource management a challenge?

The first level in the "Thy Flesh Consumed" chapter in Ultimate Doom sure had a lot of that. That level in particular (and to a lesser extent the chapter as a whole) was brutal as fuck on Ultra-Violence difficulty as far as I can remember. Health packs were very scarce there.

Thy Flesh Consumed was hard as balls last time I played it. Might replay it and see if it still holds up.

[[MAG]Nathan]

DooM_RO said:

Don't hope. The game was balanced around this particular mechanic. Shoving classic Doom elements where they don't fit will break the game. Same with stuff like speed. Changing the speed to be 100% classic would be like changing the tempo of a song. The monsters and their movement/tactics were balanced around that speed.

I don't think there are normal health pickups in the game but the more I think about it, the more OK I am with it.

I think the devs are trying to capture the FEEL of Doom, not make a 1:1 recreaction and that's a good thing.

I've been around the modding community for a long time. And I've seen some way crazier shit happen without breaking a game. You simply compensate.

This is exactly what they're doing. Keeping the feel but moving on from it at the same time. It's gonna be an old but fresh experience. I can't wait.

Maybe you just have to be a crappy shot like myself. I also like to have as many things as possible to kill though. That does play a factor.

[Tetzlaff]

It's interesting how different the first Doom experience and what Doom means to you is. For me exploration was a central part of the Doom experience as well. Back in the 1990s it was the first time that I could explore a seemingly neverending virtual 3D world. Monster encounters and resulting combat took place in that world but I was mainly fascinated that I could go anywhere I want and discover more places beyond.

If Doom 4 is just badass demons, big guns, and moving really really fast it could also result in something like Serious Sam, where there is one closed doors arena battle after the other. Thankfully it looks like this will not be the case.

[qdash]

New system works well, most of things from singleplayer looks right - thanks to Woflenstein: TNO success.

Secrets? No problems - powerups and BFG is here. Arenas must be enough big if we look back at Crysis 2, another vertical FPS game. Doom looks much bigger.

IMHO.

[quakke]

Tetzlaff said:

It's interesting how different the first Doom experience and what Doom means to you is. For me exploration was a central part of the Doom experience as well. Back in the 1990s it was the first time that I could explore a seemingly neverending virtual 3D world. Monster encounters and resulting combat took place in that world but I was mainly fascinated that I could go anywhere I want and discover more places beyond.

If Doom 4 is just badass demons, big guns, and moving really really fast it could also result in something like Serious Sam, where there is one closed doors arena battle after the other. Thankfully it looks like this will not be the case.

It does capture that classic doom 1 experience alot more than serious sam or any of the modern "classic" fps attempts.

See my level analysis thread for layout of doom 4 UAC map. It isn't actually fullsize since final map at the time of making it, i didn't know catwalks forexample are also accessible which ofc is music to my ears. id Software confirmed this later on that catwalks are playable area aswell, so exploring wont be missing in this :)


http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-4-general/73289-doom-4-automap-drawing/

[Zemini]

I like infighting.

One of the most imporant stategies (especially at higher difficulties) was instigating infighting. Not only did this help you conserve your ammo, but it was sometimes very fun to watch and place bets.

[VGames]

Infighting needs to be included whether or not it helps u out strategy wise. Watching them kill each other was always great. And I'm sure they'd do fatalities on each other if they fought each other in Doom 4.

[Zemini]

VGames said:

Infighting needs to be included whether or not it helps u out strategy wise. Watching them kill each other was always great. And I'm sure they'd do fatalities on each other if they fought each other in Doom 4.

I use to love playing passive mode and seeing which breed of monsters survives by the time I get to the end of the level.

It was usually the Baron/Hell Knights.

[DooM_RO]

Tetzlaff said:

It's interesting how different the first Doom experience and what Doom means to you is. For me exploration was a central part of the Doom experience as well. Back in the 1990s it was the first time that I could explore a seemingly neverending virtual 3D world. Monster encounters and resulting combat took place in that world but I was mainly fascinated that I could go anywhere I want and discover more places beyond.

If Doom 4 is just badass demons, big guns, and moving really really fast it could also result in something like Serious Sam, where there is one closed doors arena battle after the other. Thankfully it looks like this will not be the case.

I think you're gonna love it. See this? You can go everywhere you want here.

[sleepii]

U wanna go play doom1? Go play doom1

[VGames]

Zemini said:

I use to love playing passive mode and seeing which breed of monsters survives by the time I get to the end of the level.

It was usually the Baron/Hell Knights.

I've done this a lot. Try to get through maps without fighting but causing chaos. And yeah you're right about who survives the majority of the time.

[VGames]

DooM_RO said:

I think you're gonna love it. See this? You can go everywhere you want here.

http://i.imgur.com/OkFcMkH.jpg

Is this true?

[printz]

IronDoomer said:

Remember how Marty said that doom is about 3 things, Badass Demons, Big Fucking Guns, And Moving Really Really Fast,

Really? You mean the quote on the forums home, next to the link to this subforum, does not belong to Doomworld's staff, and was taken without citation from this Marty person? Oh.