Why do some think the pistol be replaced with an assault rifle?

[Vermil]

This is something I hear a fair bit; the pistol is weak and should be replaced with some sort of assault rifle.

Is this really a good idea, or the best way to deal with a supposedly unbalanced weapon? I debate that it would simply make the chaingun un-needed?

[drygnfyre]

I would assume the main argument is because the pistol is relatively slow and weak. Whereas an assault rifle falls somewhere between the pistol and the chaingun.

Using Brutal Doom as an example, which does replace the pistol with an assault rifle... It's much faster, a firing rate nearly equivalent to the chaingun, but not anymore powerful than either the pistol or chaingun (since it's using the same ammunition), and it has noticeable spread and recoil. So you get a much faster firing weapon, but a much less accurate one (at least in vanilla Doom, the pistol was your most accurate weapon).

I think the idea is the accuracy tradeoff is worth the speed increase, since, especially with mouselook, you can constantly adjust your angle while going full automatic.

Of course, many similar mods like Project Brutality retain the pistol in addition to the assault rifle. That particular mod has the pistol use one type of ammunition (with its own pro and cons), and the assault rifle and chaingun use another (again, its own ups and downs). I think that's a good way to do things, because it still gives the pistol some utility.

[printz]

If by assault rifle you mean a faster pistol (but slower than the chaingun), the chaingun would still make it obsolete.

I think the basic reason is that it looks more badass than the pistol. You're outfitted from the start with a large gun, and you didn't even get the shotgun: things are serious.

[drygnfyre]

Doomguy actually did have an assault rifle in the earliest Doom alphas (to match the sprite), but was later replaced with the pistol.

[Vermil]

Is Heretic's elven wand more 'balanced' and why, as I don't recall hearing similar about that weapon despite the games similar weapon set?

[Maes]

It would really be hard to find a substitute for the pistol. Make it fire faster, and it conflicts with the Chaingun. Make it shoot a more powerful bullet, and it would conflict with the Shotgun at medium and long distances, unless the Shotgun's spread is also increased to be less effective. So the pistol should be upgraded to a sort of semi-auto medium-power carbine or heavy handfgun, firing slower than the chaingun, and doing less damage in a given amount of time than both the CG and SG. Maybe 15-40 HP per shot.

[drygnfyre]

Maes said:

It would really be hard to find a substitute for the pistol. Make it fire faster, and it conflicts with the Chaingun. Make it shoot a more powerful bullet, and it would conflict with the Shotgun at medium and long distances, unless the Shotgun's spread is also increased to be less effective. So the pistol should be upgraded to a sort of semi-auto medium-power carbine or heavy handfgun, firing slower than the chaingun, and doing less damage in a given amount of time than both the CG and SG. Maybe 15-40 HP per shot.

Bullets do between 5-15 hit points, for an average of 10. If the pistol did between 15-40 hit points, it's averaging 22.5. So even with a slower rate of fire, the pistol's damage output would be considerably higher than the chaingun. (Of course, most people use the chaingun on full auto, which is two bullets per tic, so in the long run, it's still stronger).

I think in vanilla Doom setups, the pistol is balanced. It's accurate and good for activating hitscan walls and switches. Maybe the real issue is even former humans usually need a couple pistol shots to be killed. Maybe if there was an enemy that could be taken down in a single bullet (but easily spammed throughout maps), it might seem like a better weapon.

[Tompig]

Some feel inadequate that zombies have rifles that we cannot pick up.

[40oz]

Because when you suck at doom then you blame the game. The pistol does what its supposed to do.

-activates unreachable shoot switches
-kills shotgun guys
-blows up barrels
-motivates you to look for a better gun

"Balance" wasn't even a word in 1993 in regards to video games. Is the game fun or not? Sure pistol gameplay isn't fun. Its not supposed to be fun. Its supposed to make you think "how the hell am I going to survive with this thing" so you can have breathe that sigh of relief when you get something else. That's why Doom has other guns in it. Doom 2 MAP01 has 3 of them.

[Aaron Blain]

The game is balanced toward exploration. The weapons aren't designed to all be viable when they're all available.

I really like maps where weapon progression is limited. Fighting lower-tier monsters without a super shotgun and without a chaingun is a lot of fun. I like it when imps and demons have some weight and feel a little bit scary. Once you get the chaingun, there's no reason to use the pistol.

Real soldiers carry pistols in combat. Why? I wonder if any such reasons could be created in Doom.

[PsychoGoatee]

Why does anyone think one pistol is acceptable, when you could be holding two pistols?

[Average]

The only reason I like the pistol changed to an assault rifle is purely aesthetic. Everyone has a rifle except Doomguy - Doesn't make sense to me.

Personally, I'd be happy with a straight sprite swap with an assault rifle with the same fire rate and accuracy as the pistol. The rifles abilities shouldn't be different to the pistol for the reasons that 40oz gave... :)

[PsychoGoatee]

Average said:

The only reason I like the pistol changed to an assault rifle is purely aesthetic. Everyone has a rifle except Doomguy - Doesn't make sense to me.

Personally, I'd be happy with a straight sprite swap with an assault rifle with the same fire rate and accuracy as the pistol. The rifles abilities shouldn't be different to the pistol for the reasons that 40oz gave... :)

Unless you're talking about some Call of Duty ancient bolt rifle, a rifle from say Vietnam to present would be something like an M16 or more recent. So it should be faster than a pistol.

If for aesthetic reasons, clearly the two pistols thing is aesthetically way cooler. ;) And hey, the Doomguy does hold two guns on the Doom title screen.

Plus for Doom, the chaingun is where your usual auto rifle would be. And for the record, even Duke Nukem didn't have a rifle either, he had a "ripper chaingun cannon" instead.

40oz said:

Because when you suck at doom then you blame the game. The pistol does what its supposed to do.

-activates unreachable shoot switches
-kills shotgun guys
-blows up barrels
-motivates you to look for a better gun

"Balance" wasn't even a word in 1993 in regards to video games. Is the game fun or not? Sure pistol gameplay isn't fun. Its not supposed to be fun. Its supposed to make you think "how the hell am I going to survive with this thing" so you can have breathe that sigh of relief when you get something else. That's why Doom has other guns in it. Doom 2 MAP01 has 3 of them.

You can have balance while still having a pistol that is fun to use. Look at Duke Nukem 3D for example. The pistol firing faster is probably the main thing. And maybe the sound.

[gemini09]

IMO the pistol should be more powerful, i.e. the marine is exclusively doing head-shots.

[scalliano]

The pistol is not intended as a main weapon, it's just there to give you something to defend yourself with until you find something more effective. The "assault rifle as starting weapon" idea is born of the modern shooter where you use all of about two weapons throughout the entire game, possibly swapping out to an RL or minigun for the "awesome" scripted parts. Doom (and indeed, all 90's shooters) is all about building your arsenal from scratch, like the powerup systems of old. Of course, you can beat Contra with the pea-shooter, but you're just holding out until you get the spread shot or homing missiles.

Basically, what 40oz said.

[Jaxxoon R]

40oz said:

"Balance" wasn't even a word in 1993 in regards to video games.

Tell that to Sandy Petersen.

[Maes]

Tompig said:

Some feel inadequate that zombies have rifles that we cannot pick up.

But don't those rifles suck? They are even weaker than the player's pistol, and for some reason they cannot be fired rapidly. It's almost as if they had one of those super-nerfed M16s that shoot .22 LR rounds and are reduced to semi-auto or even bolt-action (!). What kind of soldiers are those? O_o

[Hoodie]

Vermil said:

Is Heretic's elven wand more 'balanced' and why, as I don't recall hearing similar about that weapon despite the games similar weapon set?

Yes because the Dragon Claw used different "ammunition". So no one complains about that. Also this isn't important but does anyone feel like they made the spread on the elven wand to fucking high? I mean shit it's practically a melee weapon.

[BaronOfStuff]

All the more reason to find that fucking Ethereal Crossbow ASAP!

[Maes]

An alternative for the pistol would be to give the player the same gun as the Nazi SS: a kind of slightly faster, but highly inaccurate submachine gun. It would work better at close ranges thanks to the higher volume of fire, but it would still leave a reason to be for the chaingun (faster AND more accurate).

[Blzut3]

The elven wand is pretty good when paired with the tome of power.

[HorrorMovieRei]

Imo, the best way to balance an assault rifle replacement for a pistol would be to also change the Chaingun, making it a lot faster, but also inacurate and consuming ammo really fast(Like Quake II's chaingun). That way one doesn't cancel out the other. The rifle would be more of a sharpshooter weapon, and the chaingun would be for sheer damage. Even then it would probably break the overall balance of the game. Not to mention, chaingunners would be a bitch to deal with.

[VGA]

The chaingun should have a spinup phase so it can't be used for tap sniping. That would keep the pistol useful.

Then you'd have to balance the chaingun a little, probably rate of fire. With the Doom 2 enemies it takes ages to bring them down with the chaingun. It's hard to stunlock them, too.