Disappearing history

[RUSH]

But how long until Doomworld itself disappears?

[Linguica]

RUSH said:

But how long until Doomworld itself disappears?

Who knows? It could be tomorrow...

[printz]

GreyGhost said:

"You MAY NOT distribute this WAD file in any format. Available only on Compuserve for downloading."

Why not just register a domain name that contains "Compuserve" and link people to download Odessa from that site?

[Zed]

I don't know if this is relevant, but I think there were some Doom-related Geocities pages, that obviously have disappeared, and there appears to be a 600 GB torrent out there that may contain some of that. But honestly, I don't know for sure, which is one of the reasons I haven't even think in downloading that.

[GreyGhost]

printz said:

Why not just register a domain name that contains "Compuserve" and link people to download Odessa from that site?

That might be crazy enough to work, and not only for the Odessa wads. The more popular domain suffixes are taken, but I could register compuserve.link for $10.99 per year.

[Jon]

GreyGhost said:

That might be crazy enough to work, and not only for the Odessa wads. The more popular domain suffixes are taken, but I could register compuserve.link for $10.99 per year.

It doesn't have to be a top-level, does it? 'compuserve.example.org'

compuserve.xyz is available and would cost about $1 a year.

Linguica said:

Also the source code: http://www.doomworld.com/3ddownloads/mellow/dwar_src.zip

"DooM Wars Source Code v0.32 (win32)"

However, LinBoom might be useful

http://www.doomworld.com/3ddownloads/ports/linboom-src.zip

Containing

TNT BOOM Phase I Source Release BOOMSRC.TXT 5/27/98

under the DOOMLIC.TXT

[Linguica]

printz said:

Why not just register a domain name that contains "Compuserve" and link people to download Odessa from that site?

The only reason to not distribute them is out of respect for the author, and registering a domain name purely to try and use some perceived loophole means you've already stopped caring about that anyway.

Jon said:

However, LinBoom might be useful

http://www.doomworld.com/3ddownloads/ports/linboom-src.zip

Haha, I just looked at the readme for that. So it's... DOSDoom 0.60 ported to work on Linux, but then some (but not all) of the files replaced with their Boom 2.01 counterparts, and then some additional random new features for funsies?

[Gez]

There used to be a program named wad2udmf on AtomicGamer, but I haven't found it in any of Doomworld's backup.
http://www.atomicgamer.com/directory.php?id=63930
It was probably named something like wad2udmf0-3-7b.zip.

[Linguica]

No such file exists on DW.

[Gentlepoke]

Gez said:

There used to be a program named wad2udmf on AtomicGamer, but I haven't found it in any of Doomworld's backup.
http://www.atomicgamer.com/directory.php?id=63930
It was probably named something like wad2udmf0-3-7b.zip.

http://mypage.iu.edu/~cfreund/wad2udmf.html - Have some source code.

http://files.drdteam.org/index.php/files/get/vVSQNiWnIk/wad2udmf0-3-7b.zip - Used to work, so if anyone has access to the DRDTeam.org files still, there might be a lead otherwise compile the source code.


https://www.doomworld.com/vb/member.php?action=mailform&userid=1905 - Finally, attempt to contact the author of the program.

[Kappes Buur]

Gez said:

There used to be a program named wad2udmf on AtomicGamer, but I haven't found it in any of Doomworld's backup.
http://www.atomicgamer.com/directory.php?id=63930
It was probably named something like wad2udmf0-3-7b.zip.

wad2udmf0_3_7b.zip

There was also UDMFConvert but I never really got it to work for me.

[GreyGhost]

Gez said:

There used to be a program named wad2udmf on AtomicGamer, but I haven't found it in any of Doomworld's backup.

I managed to locate it on the Internet Archive last week, which wasn't a particularly straightforward task. It appears in the tar listing as "userUploaded.95305" and can be downloaded from that list if you don't want the entire tar file. For the completists, the previous release (wad2udmf0_3_6b.zip) is in the 29 Dec 2010 tar file as "userUploaded.89332".

[Quasar]

Didn't permission already get given for Odessa to be on /idgames? The guy came back and acted (rightly) like we were idiots for thinking he'd prefer for his work to be totally lost rather than uploaded to the archive. And then he disappeared again :/

EDIT: Yeah, pretty much:
http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?search=1&field=title&word=odessa&sort=time&order=asc&page=1

[Maes]

Heh, there have been some pretty epic flames on DW because of WADs with a "death wish" clause: either a completely outdated version/platform-specific installer, non-standard packaging, some other broken feature etc. and, for some perverse reason, almost all of these WADs had a "DO NOT REUSE"/"DO NOT REPACKAGE" clause. Some even had more restrictive download/distribution clauses, as noted above.

If the original intention of their authors was to restrict reuse/copying for whatever reason, common sense dictates that these reasons are now long dead and gone. And trying to contact individual authors (through 20+ old e-mail addresses, no less) has seldom resulted in any kind of response.

[Xaser]

Sometimes I wonder if we need a parallel "/idgaf archive". :P


Jokes aside, the new maintainers are doing some good stuff in this regard -- see TGH's STRAIN reupload. It's not a closed system anymore.

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

While we're on the topic, as some of you may have noticed I've been gradually filling in the idgames Heretic section with WADs recovered from a few shovelware discs that I have on hand. H!ZONE is the biggest source of lost material that I have in that regard, but it's also one of the less scrupulous compilations in terms of keeping files together and documented. This is obviously problematic but I don't entirely give up hope that there might be alternate complete versions on some other compilation. So, if anyone can find intact versions of these, it would be appreciated.

(NB: some of this list may have gone through only my first pass at verifying that they're not on idgames, which is to have one folder with all of the idgames Heretic WADs and another with all the ones from the shovelware, and to run a duplicate deleter program on them that does file hash comparisons. This doesn't rule out the WAD already being on idgames with a slight alteration, or miscategorized in the Doom directories. I later do a file name search and an author name / map title full text search (if a TXT was provided) to further check against duplication.)

Probably missing WADs with no TXT file at all:
AACOOL.WAD
BASEONEH.WAD
BEATY.WAD
CONTROL.WAD
DESERT.WAD
EUGENE.WAD
FLYDEAD.WAD
FORTRESS.WAD
HAHAHA.WAD
HE2.WAD
HELLFURY.WAD {Compilation episode}
HOLYWAR.WAD {Compilation episode}
KNIGHTS.WAD
SNIPER.WAD
TUNNEL.WAD
W.WAD
WALKBY.WAD

Furthermore, there's a WAD that doesn't have the complete set of accompanying files demanded by the text file:
MAGERET1.WAD

For the record, the discs I've looked at are:
H!ZONE
Heresies: Developer's Network CD Occurrence Three
Magic & Mayhem for Heretic
Total Ruin
3D Game Alchemy

I haven't done too much digging into archive.org's ISOs as yet.

In the meantime, I have quite a few files left from this that do have their accompanying TXTs. I should see about getting another batch put together.

[Quasar]

Maes said:

Heh, there have been some pretty epic flames on DW because of WADs with a "death wish" clause: either a completely outdated version/platform-specific installer, non-standard packaging, some other broken feature etc. and, for some perverse reason, almost all of these WADs had a "DO NOT REUSE"/"DO NOT REPACKAGE" clause. Some even had more restrictive download/distribution clauses, as noted above.

If the original intention of their authors was to restrict reuse/copying for whatever reason, common sense dictates that these reasons are now long dead and gone. And trying to contact individual authors (through 20+ old e-mail addresses, no less) has seldom resulted in any kind of response.

The existence of shovelware CDs was the main prompting factor behind that sentiment.

[Gentlepoke]

Quasar said:

The existence of shovelware CDs was the main prompting factor behind that sentiment.

Shovelware CDs becoming pretty much the main method that the majority of that stuff still exists. Either way, I should probably dig through some of mine.

[Blastfrog]

By releasing their works for free to the public to be enjoyed for what it is*, they've surrendered reasonable expectation of how its users run and share the work, especially decades on.

*and not some standalone commercial work, which is of a very different nature

I think we should presume collective authority on preserving and redistributing their works. If anyone catches wind of the archival and haven't already changed their minds, then certainly work something out individually. Seeing how impractical it is to track many of these people down, I think we should take on more of an "archeologist" mindset with less of a contemporary-minded view. Let's not worry about stepping on ghost toes.

[Gentlepoke]

Sodaholic said:

By releasing their works for free to the public to be enjoyed for what it is*, they've surrendered reasonable expectation of how its users run and share the work, especially decades on.

*and not some standalone commercial work, which is of a very different nature

I think we should presume collective authority on preserving and redistributing their works. If anyone catches wind of the archival and haven't already changed their minds, then certainly work something out individually. Seeing how impractical it is to track many of these people down, I think we should take on more of an "archeologist" mindset with less of a contemporary-minded view. Let's not worry about stepping on ghost toes.

The Jason Scott approach, yes?

[Quasar]

Gentlepoke said:

Shovelware CDs becoming pretty much the main method that the majority of that stuff still exists. Either way, I should probably dig through some of mine.

It was harder to see it that way in an age where:

• People were making money off other peoples' work with those things, and
  
• The history of Earth did not yet include an occurrence such as a major online network evaporating nearly overnight through a vulture buyout.
  

[Gentlepoke]

Quasar said:

It was harder to see it that way in an age where:

• People were making money off other peoples' work with those things, and
  
• The history of Earth did not yet include an occurrence such as a major online network evaporating nearly overnight through a vulture buyout.
  

Naturally, however with hindsight it was a good thing it did take place in that it allowed a good proportion of the content generated from that time to be preserved even if the initial intention was not meant to be that.

[Maes]

Gentlepoke said:

The Jason Scott approach, yes?

Well, without him, we would miss important information such as how to make a backyard nuclear reactor from a plastic barrel and a few rods of enriched uranium, or ninja poison (which also warned us to be careful not to take a lot of it, because "THAT SHIT STINKS" (sic)).

Think we'll stop at some lamer's (to use 80s/90s bbs/usenet jargon) "warning" in some text file that came with some game's level? :-p

[LogicDeLuxe]

Maes said:

almost all of these WADs had a "DO NOT REUSE"/"DO NOT REPACKAGE" clause.

I can understand when authors don't like it when their work is tampered with.
Forbidding re-uploads anywhere, even in its original form, is different, though. "Death wish" fits it well indeed.
Are there still people releasing their work that way, or was it a thing of the 90's?

Quasar said:

The existence of shovelware CDs was the main prompting factor behind that sentiment.

Of course, you could just exclude those in your terms instead of any kind of distribution. Though, shovelware distributors frequently ignored those anyway.

[Memfis]

Why wouldn't you want to appear on a shovelware CD? These things kick ass! I would be proud to be a part of such a thing.

[Maes]

LogicDeLuxe said:

Are there still people releasing their work that way, or was it a thing of the 90's?

The closest I can think of in the "modern" era of source ports, was an infamous ZDoom mod by some "Team Tiger". It must be on some newstuff/ chronicle somewhere, where I had posted an in-depth analysis of the innards that the authors so dearly didn't want to be probed ;-)

As for not wanting their work to be tampered with...well, that's just another form of superficial "security through obscurity" which then degenerates into "security through obsolescence". First their awkward packaging method ensures that editing their work is made harder (but not impossible). Give it a few years, and the future "game archeologist" is left with something between a Sphinx that beckons him to solve its riddle, and a moral dilemma of whether that riddle should be solved. Astonishing.

[Gez]

Memfis said:

Why wouldn't you want to appear on a shovelware CD? These things kick ass! I would be proud to be a part of such a thing.

People used to be very upset at the idea of BIG FACELESS CORPORATION (some shovelware company operated from a garage by three people) making UNDESERVED PROFIT from the product of their (the upset people, not the shovelware guys) labor of love.

See also the flamewars about TNT selling out and Evilution becoming an official product you had to buy from id software. I guess people hated capitalism back then.

[Gentlepoke]

Gez said:

People used to be very upset at the idea of BIG FACELESS CORPORATION (some shovelware company operated from a garage by three people) making UNDESERVED PROFIT from the product of their (the upset people, not the shovelware guys) labor of love.

See also the flamewars about TNT selling out and Evilution becoming an official product you had to buy from id software. I guess people hated capitalism back then.

You mean like SEA vs PKWARE?

[Havoc Crow]

Maes said:

The closest I can think of in the "modern" era of source ports, was an infamous ZDoom mod by some "Team Tiger". It must be on some newstuff/ chronicle somewhere, where I had posted an in-depth analysis of the innards that the authors so dearly didn't want to be probed ;-)

This sounds interesting. Any other pointers? I tried looking through your newstuff reviews, or googling for "Team Tiger", but found nothing :(

[Maes]

JudgeDeadd said:

This sounds interesting. Any other pointers? I tried looking through your newstuff reviews, or googling for "Team Tiger", but found nothing :(

Hmm, it seems the author(s) went the extra pain and removed the files in question from idgames. I don't know if the newstuff/ reviews have been deleted, too. In any case, a name to watch out for is Nicholas "Tiger" Gautier. The map in question was called TGRDM-something ("Tiger Deathmatch"), and there were several releases. The author is probably best known for Abandoned Misery.

Edit: rejoice, rejoice, for I found it: the WAD in question was "TGRCP1" (removed from idgames, so don't bother looking for it there, or following any links), and it was reviewed (and torn a new one) in newstuff/ #304. Enjoy ;-)

Edit 2: Oh and don't forget to look at my infamous post 666555 (yeah, I was 1337 and all, even back then).

Edit 3: Well, it seems the infamous TGRCP1 ultimately survived as "Navala", English and Deutsch versions. However the original, ridiculous "Tiger Files" readmes of the April 2007 versions are gone. Now, that's a piece of Doom history that is better lost...or not? ;-) I may still have them around somewhere...