Disappearing history

[Jon]

Maes said:

Edit: rejoice, rejoice, for I found it: the WAD in question was "TGRCP1" (removed from idgames, so don't bother looking for it there, or following any links), and it was reviewed (and torn a new one) in newstuff/ #304. Enjoy ;-)

This could even be used as an argument against preserving the past. Past-Maes spent more time tearing into a text file than the PWAD itself, and read today, comes off as a self-important asshole. Luckily you've changed ;)

[Maes]

Well, to be fair I wasn't the only one who torn it a new one, back in the day.

Certainly not enough to single-handedly cause Nicholas "Tiger" Gautier to back down, and the name "TIger Files" or "Tiger Team" to vanish into obscurity (it was never used again in any of his works, after that, not even in the re-release of TGRCP1 as "Navala"), unless I really was that awesome. I'd say that he simply was asking for it.

Really, if someone released something similar to the original TGRCP1 (or like the infamous OTTAWAU) today, what would be the community's response?

[GreyGhost]

Maes said:

Edit 3: Well, it seems the infamous TGRCP1 ultimately survived as "Navala", English and Deutsch versions. However the original, ridiculous "Tiger Files" readmes of the April 2007 versions are gone. Now, that's a piece of Doom history that is better lost...or not? ;-) I may still have them around somewhere...

A search of my "updated and/or removed from /idgames" archive turned up the May 2006 release of TGRDM2 (now called "Dimension"), which has an equally curious text file, though its review by AlexMax in T/nC 281 wasn't quite as scathing.

[Maes]

Jon said:

This could even be used as an argument against preserving the past. Past-Maes spent more time tearing into a text file than the PWAD itself, and read today, comes off as a self-important asshole. Luckily you've changed ;)

Hey hey hey, let's be fair here: it is deathz0r who just tore the text file. I also tore the PWAD with XWE (back then all the cool kids used it). By deathz0r's own admission ;-)

[Quasar]

Gez said:

People used to be very upset at the idea of BIG FACELESS CORPORATION (some shovelware company operated from a garage by three people) making UNDESERVED PROFIT from the product of their (the upset people, not the shovelware guys) labor of love.

See also the flamewars about TNT selling out and Evilution becoming an official product you had to buy from id software. I guess people hated capitalism back then.

To be fair that description is accurate for those disks like the weird German ones that get around German trademark and other laws by using words like BOOM or TOOM instead of DOOM on the front cover and have a label quality that looks like it came off an inkjet.

It's certainly not a fair assessment of WizardWorks though. One look at their WP page will show you that was no garage operation, and they were by far the biggest offender when it came to "shovel it up and let god sort it out" compilation discs. They even stamped their own copyright on 'em.

EDIT: BTW, to get more back on topic...
It'd be lovely if somebody could scrape this while it's available:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120717021824/http://www.rome.ro/lee_killough/

I have contact with Lee and can try to get his permission to have it rehosted somewhere else. But if nobody can really be arsed to do the scraping in the first place, then I see this entire thread is really pointless.

[scifista42]

Maes said:

newstuff/ #304. Enjoy ;-)

Wow, the depth and quality of past /newstuff reviews cannot measure with the present day ones.

[Jon]

Quasar said:

I have contact with Lee and can try to get his permission to have it rehosted somewhere else. But if nobody can really be arsed to do the scraping in the first place, then I see this entire thread is really pointless.

Done. Well, in progress. To here: http://redmars.org/mirrored/www.rome.ro/lee_killough/

Also, http://redmars.org/mirrored/classicgaming.com/doom/

[Gentlepoke]

Jon said:

Done. Well, in progress. To here: http://redmars.org/mirrored/www.rome.ro/lee_killough/

I need to a) tweak my web server so index.shtml is treated as an index, and b) consider mirroring the *original* URL rather than Romero's mirror.

On your mirror for http://redmars.org/mirrored/classicgaming.com/doom/ the following pages do not direct (although checking the mirrored paths, they probably will just give you a 404 error:

* Older Versions of Doom
* Doom History
* Doom Memorabilia
* Articles on Doom and id Software
* Scholarly Works Related to Doom
* Doom Humor
* Doom Editing

As it is, the Romero mirror is probably the best we'll get for Lee Killough's content.

[Jon]

Gentlepoke said:

On your mirror for http://redmars.org/mirrored/classicgaming.com/doom/ the following pages do not direct (although checking the mirrored paths, they probably will just give you a 404 error

Yes unfortunately they are missing from the wayback machine copy.

As it is, the Romero mirror is probably the best we'll get for Lee Killough's content.

Yes.

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

The SLIGE source code was mentioned earlier, did someone find that already? I just noticed that I do in fact have it, tucked in my custom graphics directory of all places.

[CODOR]

ETTiNGRiNDER said:

The SLIGE source code was mentioned earlier, did someone find that already?

Csonicgo found it; it wasn't really lost, it was just hiding amongst the xwadtools source. I also have standalone versions 485 and (I think) 464 (and possibly others), in big monolithic half-megabyte C source files...

[Linguica]

CODOR said:

I also have standalone versions 485 and (I think) 464 (and possibly others), in big monolithic half-megabyte C source files...

Don't knock big monolithic source files, even Carmack has recently said that he has come around to the advantages of coding that way.

[Reisal]

CODOR said:

Csonicgo found it; it wasn't really lost, it was just hiding amongst the xwadtools source. I also have standalone versions 485 and (I think) 464 (and possibly others), in big monolithic half-megabyte C source files...

Could you send copies of those via PM? I already have older versions of OBLIGE's sources and executables archived and would like a copy of the sources.

[RestlessRodent]

Linguica said:

Don't knock big monolithic source files, even Carmack has recently said that he has come around to the advantages of coding that way.

Job security?

[scifista42]

Linguica said:

even Carmack has recently said that he has come around to the advantages of coding that way.

Sources of really complex programs in scale of megabytes/gigabytes too?

[CODOR]

Glaice said:

Could you send copies of those via PM? I already have older versions of OBLIGE's sources and executables archived and would like a copy of the sources.

I have version 464 unaltered, but it looks like I edited 485 to get it to compile in Linux and I'm not sure if I still have the original... :-P
I'll post 464 here in case anyone else wants it: sligesrc.zip

[Maes]

CODOR said:

Csonicgo found it; it wasn't really lost, it was just hiding amongst the xwadtools source. I also have standalone versions 485 and (I think) 464 (and possibly others), in big monolithic half-megabyte C source files...

I often wondered if SLIGE's author really had any benefit in coding this way, or he simply didn't know his way around multi-module programs. Or maybe his IDE of choice couldn't keep track of symbols scattered in multiple files (in fact, I think only Dev-C++ did that, at least among the older free IDEs, and even today e.g. Visual Studio 2005 or Eclipse with the CDT plugin can't do it, though I remember that Visual Studio 98 somehow seamlessly kept track of classes, structs and defines in multi-file projects?).

In any case, anyone seriously considering bringing SLIGE back to life or even improving on it, the source code should be broken down into separate functional modules/units, and THEN maybe it will start making some sense for anyone other than his author (who I think must have gone insane at some point, due to the sheer monolithic size and complexity of the thing).

Now why would anyone wanna do that, especially since OBLIGE exists? I'm of the opinion that SLIGE could perform much better than people give it credit for, especially since nobody seriously ever tried to learn its (quite arcane, I admit) configuration subsystem, which could supposedly give superior results to the steretypical "SLIGE map" that anyone could spot from a mile away.

[GreyGhost]

CODOR said:

it looks like I edited 485 to get it to compile in Linux and I'm not sure if I still have the original... :-P

Fortunately, the 485 source has found its way into Doomworld's collection of editors & utilities, just lacks a link on the web page.

[CacoCaddy]

Does anyone have the old post hell midi?

[Xaser]

Here's an official link: cirka.mid here on Fredrik's homepage

[deathbringer]

Gentlepoke said:

Are there any major maps / modifications / tools which need tracking down or are currently assumed to be lost at this present point in time? It could be good to start an effort to track down some of those files?

Don's Challenge is one of those "it's not finished" wads which is awesome, but only rarely available. I can remember a Zdoom version of DC2 that I'd love to play again (especially as I now know how to run multiple wad files, so I'd actually see the graphics as they were meant to be!), and an EDGE version of the "original" (the first part of a never-finished remake series - he was going to EDGE-ify DC2 as well). Mind you, the first one did have all of E1 copied into one map, with minimal structural modifications.

Also, the awesome Twice Risen, which was never finished (but released as an abandonware mess), and it's 11-level demo version, appear to be missing.

[kb1]

Just wanted to say: Thanks, Quasar and others for this effort to hold on to the past. In most things in life, you get some sort of warning, but these old web pages are gone in the blink of an eye.

Not sure what I can do, but I'd like to help.

[kb1]

Quasar said:

The Doom Wiki is backed up to several physically separated locations so it's fairly safe. However, providing downloadable backup dumps would be great - if we had the technological capability to do it without compromising the site.

We do not currently have that.

On wikia, the backups provided were made from cloned instances of the entire wiki database which then had their user tables cleared of all password hashes and all user emails.

We don't have the resources to do this on MancuNET AFAIK.

What resources do you need. It would be valuable to me to have an offline copy, and cash is about the only way I can currently support it.

[Tiger]

Maes said:

The closest I can think of in the "modern" era of source ports, was an infamous ZDoom mod by some "Team Tiger". It must be on some newstuff/ chronicle somewhere, where I had posted an in-depth analysis of the innards that the authors so dearly didn't want to be probed ;-)

As for not wanting their work to be tampered with...well, that's just another form of superficial "security through obscurity" which then degenerates into "security through obsolescence". First their awkward packaging method ensures that editing their work is made harder (but not impossible). Give it a few years, and the future "game archeologist" is left with something between a Sphinx that beckons him to solve its riddle, and a moral dilemma of whether that riddle should be solved. Astonishing.

I think this wall of text is a bit fragmented and poorly constructed, but I am currently pressed on time. I apologize in advanced.

Maes, I am rather amazed that you remember. The previous versions that contains those ascii’s texts no longer exists in the /idgames nor in my very own project database. You might be lucky to find it on the internet, but I certainly don’t have it anymore. It’s a past that I rather take as a learning experience of what not to do rather to be admired for such fallacies and failures. Back when I first started designing maps, I didn’t have any proper knowledge of the basics of the engine nor how things worked other than - - it’s Doom, a game I played in my childhood years back when it was released. Of course, if I have known what I do now, I would have done things much more differently, obviously.
I thought I figured I reply as I am seeing a huge mistake from what I was planning todo with TGRDM3 (before sanity rolled in) and now with the avoiding people to cheat and/or viewing maps in map editor[1]. In the early stages of TGRDM3 (2007-2009?), I wanted the PWAD to do some artificial intelligence to avoid the maps from ever getting subjected to theft and fancy protocols with how users in SkullTag plays with the maps. To further elaborate, I thought it was a good idea (in that time period) to have the game engine build the entire map on the fly, which all sectors will be set to a height of null using Doom Builder 1.68’s default’s sector and sidedef’s texturing – the building phase will obviously be done within the ACS spectrum. But that’s not where my lunacy stopped, I then wanted the ACS engine to track the players movements and be sure that they stay exactly within the playing field. So if a player decided to noclip, I wanted the track movement lunacy to move the player back to the map field. But that’s not where I wanted to stop with my sheer idiocy. I then wanted to make it where the ‘RPC’ [rpc note] kept the game rolling by controlling everything – from the game field, to what the players had. I am sure there is a lot more, but that’s all I can think of right now and I don’t desire to remind myself of those ideas anymore. However, I am fully accurate that I can predict that everyone can see problems with these ideas. What is it that I am truly to solve? Yes, I don’t want the maps to be taken away and someone else takes the credits – yet if I really made that possible, it can still happen to where someone can reverse engineer it. Or that I want to enforce the players to be in the field and not elsewhere in the map. There comes a time when we rethink things from the ground up and reanalyze. What I’m I doing correctly and what I’m I doing incorrectly, what is right and what is wrong, and most importantly – what do I and others want in a PWAD. The answer is simple, just to have fun. If you are not enjoying making the map, you’re doing something wrong – if the author hates it, chances are that others will hate it too, with the exception of Quake.
For those that are truly serious on making it harder for the player to noclip, use a map editor, and whatnot, I strongly urge you to reconsider. The problems you are trying to solve can easily be debunked and render pointless. It’s not worth the time for something so idiotic and stupid. If the player is ‘playing’ the wad, isn’t that what matters? Who cares if they cheat, who cares if they use DB, as long as they are having fun – is all that we really want as developers on all realms.
Having released several projects, I am rather glad Doom was my first. Excluding my time being a staff member in SkullTag, I have learned a lot being here and gaining experience, and making mistakes ;)

RPC Note: Remote Procedure Call; mainly designed to help remedy SkullTag’s 96f’s poor player handling; when the player presses a linedef or walks over a linedef, sometime – nothing happens. RPC was designed to try to keep the map going rather than being stuck. Other implementations using this, I can’t explain anymore – I don’t remember anymore and I am sure it was stupid.

EDIT:
revision update.

[Gentlepoke]

deathbringer said:

Don's Challenge is one of those "it's not finished" wads which is awesome, but only rarely available. I can remember a Zdoom version of DC2 that I'd love to play again (especially as I now know how to run multiple wad files, so I'd actually see the graphics as they were meant to be!), and an EDGE version of the "original" (the first part of a never-finished remake series - he was going to EDGE-ify DC2 as well). Mind you, the first one did have all of E1 copied into one map, with minimal structural modifications.

Also, the awesome Twice Risen, which was never finished (but released as an abandonware mess), and it's 11-level demo version, appear to be missing.

Twice Risen used to be found at http://www.atomicgamer.com/directory.php?id=1662 or at least the scraps are (RisScrap.zip). In addition the 6 level demo used to be at ftp://ftp.doomworld.com/misc/trisen01.zip

[Andy Johnsen]

Jon said:

Done. Well, in progress. To here: http://redmars.org/mirrored/www.rome.ro/lee_killough/

Also, http://redmars.org/mirrored/classicgaming.com/doom/

Was hoping I had an early backup of the site, no luck. Did find a single html named "Why I left Doom, Lee Killough May 1999.htm", a lengthy read which is of some historic interest I suppose, and as far as I can see it's missing from the mirror. I assume it might be available elsewhere that I'm not aware of though.

This is making me go through about 30gb worth of old Doom stash CD's for backup purposes, a task long overdue. This includes years of OCD like file saving. I wish I had the foresight to keep the idgames mirror separate from all the shit I tracked file by file, I have no idea whats worth pulling out or whats already available w/o googling shit. And I suspect some of this was taken down for a reason.

I can certainly check for specific files if there is anything worth looking for, though.

[Linguica]

Andy Johnsen said:

Did find a single html named "Why I left Doom, Lee Killough May 1999.htm"

Haha, didn't think anyone would ever be able to dig that up again...

[Andy Johnsen]

Linguica said:

Haha, didn't think anyone would ever be able to dig that up again...

Yeah, I'm that creepy guy who keeps a file on everyone, apparently :p Quick search for "Linguica" turned up the following;

[Nictendo]

Definitely unfortunate losses, but a fine example of how transient everything on the internet truly is. Even with backups, even with redundancy, links will eventually be broken, knowledge will be forgotten. This is why it can be good to also have physical archives. But even those can be lost.

So long as we pass on our knowledge of what an amazing series Doom is to future generations we can continue to hope that its legacy will last forever.

[GreyGhost]

Gentlepoke said:

Twice Risen used to be found at http://www.atomicgamer.com/directory.php?id=1662 or at least the scraps are (RisScrap.zip). In addition the 6 level demo used to be at ftp://ftp.doomworld.com/misc/trisen01.zip

The MBF and csDoom versions can be found here, haven't spotted risscrap.zip or trisen01.zip yet.