Boomtown

[Guest Anonymous User]

i meant doom, not zdoom, zdoom might take more work because of added things like scripting, bridges, and stuff like that =]

[Guest Mattrim.]

This is amusing. Half of the 'informed' opinions on this board have been formulated by 'individuals' who have not even downloaded the zip-archive in question (Boomtown). Also, I would like to point out that Birdman never tried to pass off the (resource) work of Boomtown as his. I suggest that you view his resource page, which is linked at http://members.ync.net/birdman/index05.htm ? Birdman lists where he acquired his resources, including sprites, music, and textures. Additionally, as far as I can tell, there are no stolen maps present in Boomtown (with the exception of Birdman's Chasm, a version of DOOM2's MAP24, which was already noted by Birdman himself in this forum @Friday Feb 04 18:15:44 2000). Calm down.

[locust]

The link Mattrim posted actually just contains the text that Doomlegend posted. In particular, "It wasn't ment to piss off some people" seems to indicate that this page went up after this furore started, ie after he got caught.

[Guest Anonymous User]

OK folks, what Birdman did was appearently a goof-up on his part. He says he a landscaper & during his winter off-season he does things like edit/create Doom PWADs. He's an adult with lots of responsiblity like upkeeping his place of dwelling & his business. In other words he has a life! Creating doom levels is hard enough, let alone making textures, sprites & flats for them & getting them to work right. And it takes a lot of time too! I know. I do it too. I'm in the middle of my own project that's been in the works since August 1994. I have a family and everything that goes with that. There's little time I can devote to my DooM project. He used texures & sprites from other peoples work. The only thing he really did wrong was to not credit the original artist for his work, thus IMPLYING that it's his own. That's unethical. NOT a crime nor a reason to be flamed! Understand that the copywrite laws that apply to computer software do not apply here with freeware. He doesn't even have to ask permission to use those resources. He's not PROFITING from other people's work so no violation is happening here. -Just something that's no too ethical. In my opinion he should rectify this by re-releasing it with a corrected .TXT file with proper credits where credit is due. That would be the right thing to do. And for those of you out there that got "really pissed off" about this, I wonder, did any of you ever take credit for something you didn't do. Otherwise you wouldn't be so angry about it. Just dissapionted that some one let his ethics go out. Understandingly... Me.

[Guest Mattrim.]

My god...the voice of reason.

[Guest ricrob]

kill the birdman...kill the birdman...hee hee...

[SailorScout]

Failure to list, credit, or recieve permission from the original authors is in fact a crime and to use it in this manner is in fact a crime. Read up on US copyright some law before you start saying things like that.<BR><BR> http://www.iupui.edu/~copyinfo/uscopy.html<BR><BR>You couldn't even use the 'fair use' clause because there's nothing educational about a DM level, and it wasn't a parody or review of anything else (the primary things you're allowed to use material for without permission). I doubt any legal problems would arise from this, but they potentially could. Does noone read the license agreement that comes with their software? *sigh*

[SailorScout]

Christ I should have read that post below a bit more.. pesky grammar errors.. ;)

[Guest Mattrim.]

Sailor: Your revisions to Containment.WAD are brilliant. A great improvement to an already classic level. Ricrob: did you get that e-mail that I sent to you?

[AndrewB]

Sure, it's only right to give credit where credit is due, but sheezeth.. A crime?? Come on, don't make such a big deal out of it! :-b

[Guest Anonymous User]

Under U.S. and international copyright law, using resources from other wads without the authors' permission is indeed copyright violation whether or not there is a profit motive. But Batman Doom and Wolfendoom are copyright violations too--utilizing character designs that are part of copyrighted works. The much-lauded Aliens TC is full of similar copyright violations, as are Star Wars themed wads. If you're going to bring up copyright violations, half the wads on ftp.cdrom.com should be removed because they incorporate copyrighted characters, textures, sounds, or music. The swiped music, sounds, and textures are often uncredited. I do *not* condone Birdman's actions, but the sad truth is that he has done nothing unusual, and I find it odd that Doomworld--which hosts TCs full of copyright violations--has come down so hard on him. Methinks the webmaster doth protest too much... --Copyright Fanatic

[Guest Anonymous User]

In this case, I'm not so sure Birdman is innocent since he didn't even apologize after being accused for all this. However, being new to the Doom community, I might have done the same thing accidentally, without cruel intentions. This was pretty educational for me, because I never would have expected this much response over what seems like such a little deal. It's just a game, you know? It's DOOM for god's sake. It's an *ADDON* for Doom for god's sake. But then I thought about it for a bit. I guess I'd be pretty offended if I saw things _I_ worked really hard for included in someone else's work. Regardless of how much effort was put into the rest of their wad, I guess I understand now, and I'll make sure to respect the community when I release anything.. I still think that such a big deal shouldn't have been made before even talking to the guy, because after all, he could've been innocent.

[Guest Fanatic]

I didn't post that comment.

[Guest Anonymous User]

<YAWN> I declare judgement for the plaintiff. I find the Birdman guilty of using resources from other Doom engine based projects & say, join the crowd, Birdman. You must pay a settlement to all offended parties of 50% of all the money you make off of Boomtown.

[Guest Anonymous User]

Kill the trator!!! Fry the bird...... (we all have sailor scout to thank!)

[SailorScout]

Not like I would have been the only person to notice.. I'm not going to comment any more on this subject.

[Guest Tawney]

Under U.S. and international copyright law, using resources from other wads without the authors' permission is indeed copyright violation whether or not there is a profit motive. But Batman Doom and Wolfendoom are copyright violations too--utilizing character designs that are part of copyrighted works. The much-lauded Aliens TC is full of similar copyright violations, as are Star Wars themed wads. If you're going to bring up copyright violations, half the wads on ftp.cdrom.com should be removed because they incorporate copyrighted characters, textures, sounds, or music. The swiped music, sounds, and textures are often uncredited. I do *not* condone Birdman's actions, but the sad truth is that he has done nothing unusual, and I find it odd that Doomworld--which hosts TCs full of copyright violations--has come down so hard on him. Methinks the webmaster doth protest too much... --Copyright Fanatic

I wouldn't say Batman Doom, Aliens, or WolfenDoom are copyright violations whatsoever...Well, it COULD be, but it's really up to Warner Brothers, id software, or whoever wether they want to really press charges or not. But they really don't care, because it gives them more publicity! Plus there's no profit involved at all. These people have all given credit where credit was due. The fact of the matter is that people aren't mad because he borrowed resources from other people. What everyone is so pissed of about is that birdman here has borrowed things from other places, and not only did he NOT give credit to the people that helped him, but he also tried to claim it as his own. Don't give me that "Oh hecould be innocent crap". It's so obvious he tried to claim everything as his own! He was saying he's been working onthis since the dawn of Doom2 (8 years? wtf...) putting 8 hours a day on this thing? Think how many total hours that is: 8 years * 8 hours * 365 days + 2 leap year days = 23,362 hours didnt he say he worked a total of 5000 hours? talk about a slight overexxageration:) this megawad blows for 5000 hours of work. no offense or anythihng. i did notice some ripped eternal doom levels within the set (yes, i downloaded the piece of junk), ripped music, graphics (public stuff but no credit), levels, graphics (heretic stuff though, which is okay). the set is far from anything spectacular, and nowhere near as good as the author claims it to be. birdman imi sure you put a lot of work into this thing, but most of your work was probably looking for things off the internet and putting it all together. if you spent 5000 hours working on this boomtown project, why couldnt you spend another hour crediting the things you took off the net, not for copyright bullshit, but just out of common courtesy? too many people have been working too hard to not be credited for it. everyone has the right to be mad. first, everyone has the right to free speech (in the US at least), and since people DID get ripped, I think people have every right to bitch, and to defend themself as well, but there is not much to defend yourself on birdman, and all is personally ask form you is a public form of apology, and to correct your ways by writing some creidt were credit is due!<P> Damn that was shit long! : )

[Guest ricrob]

Oh, and yes Matt...I did get that package u sent me. Working on an update now. Thanks sweetie...

[makron]

Hey birdman why could you not make a good bunch of maps yourself?. I made trinity.wad albeit in 5 months but it uses the power of the boom engine very creatively and also has great gameplay. _and_ the design is very original and good to look at. summary: if me and hundreds of others can make good original maps so can you. don't bother with boomtown get doom2000 instead it is definitly worth the download time. or trinity which rocks!.

[Guest MrMGA]

I posted two messages defending Birdman last night. They were either yanked before they appeared or they were deleted. Who's in charge around here, anyway?

[Linguica]

Messages are not censored before they are posted, and messages are rarely deleted after they've been posted unless there was a good reason... I don't know what you're talking about, personally.

[makron]

I thought that to make a megawad or tc in this day and age people would expect the work to be original by now? down with birdman!.

[Mordeth]

Well, looks like this Birdman guy at least partially gave in: he has put up a credits page. Dunno if it's complete (according to a list I received it's not), but at least it's there now, plus he removed his offer to email people the registered IWAD. He still hasn't included a text file in the actual archive (not last time I looked anyway).

On this messageboard I've seen several remarks that Birdman's work is either "crap" or "best wad ever". The quality wasn't an issue here, folks. To those who still think it's OK to use other people's work without permission and/or credit: how would you feel if somebody took your work and passed it off as their own?

As far as I'm concerned I leave it at that and won't take other steps. I hope this affair serves as a warning to those people trying to pull off the same thing.

[Guest Anonymous User]

I'm new 'round here so I will be brief... GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREIDT IS DUE!!! ...and don't pass it off as your own!

[Guest Anonymous User]

i can totally see both sides of the argument, on one side you have some artists who have created some wonderful stuff, and should be upset that someones claimed their work, i cant imagine many things more upsetting... at the same time tho, this is a point in time where almost 3 out of 5 abandonware sites have doom posted to download, for free. the full game, not a demo. not that doom is abandonware, i just bought a new doom2 cd at walmart. so you know the bottom line is, he shouldve given credit to those who deserve it, but he didnt. so shame on him. but it shouldve been handled differently... the way i see it is, he fucked up royally, but so what. its a new zdoom wad for us to play, and one more thing to keep this community busy a little longer. this community is dying, if no ones noticed... zdoomgl, last update when? or zdoom, even tho randys still working on it theres not any more major things planned. i know about the new engine hes workin on, but stll its gonna be the same game. the only really promising doom project out there that i see is qdoom, but when thats released i dont know what will take its place... the last thing the community needs is a big division. its a game... have fun. play doom!

[Guest Xenocide]

Since this subject still seems pretty active, i have one burning question. What levels were copied godammit??? I don't recognize anything, and I have played through all of mm and requiem in the old days, when megawads actually got done. It looks like everyone (except sailor) has assumed that birdman stole them.

[Guest KT Slayer]

Well, first off i'd like to say, i think Birdman's tc is not that bad. I agree with Mr.MGM and also, why do you people laugh at others hard work? It shouldnt matter what someone uses in a tc as long as it makes doom a different game. You should remember..doom is getting old, instead of bashing wad authors, you should give thanks to those who still build for the game. I hope this post actually means something to all of you people (some of you who probably never have designed a level in your life)

[X-Blade]

I admit it is hard to work solo. Maybe he saw many creations he liked and wanted them for his wad. He may have stolen the work of others, but the original work in there is wonderful. I do understand why people are pissed off. I would be too if someone stole my work, but I think that the link should be put back up with a note of the controversy. It has a ton of great stuff in there. I believe that he worked very hard on it, and he deserves the work being acknowledged. He made it sound like it was a life achievement for him. I'm not saying what he did was acceptable, but I think "HIS" work is worth a look. As for everyone else, from now on, make sure that you give credit where it is due!

[Guest Anonymous User]

...Yeah, you see, who really cares if he copied anything(I haven't even played the WAD), I mean, it's just Doom, I mean you could go out and buy Half-Life and all but I guess you see the relevance of an antique. But hey, what DID he copy? The ability to swim underwater in Doom? How can you "copy" that, it's not a special feature, it's not a privilege, it's something everyone should be able to do, in real-life and in a Doom WAD. "Hey, he copied my idea to swim in Doom!!" Um, well, what else CAN he do? Create the ability to swim in the sky? Um, it's only Doom, you can't go too far before you become a Quaker. Uh...

[Guest Greensting]

I don't personally see much level-copying going on in the wad. I do however see a lot of creative energy in the graphics. If there is some bona-fide level stealing, then I recommend going back and checking the text files on the orignal levels. See if it was ok to use the wads to be used in other levels. Other than that, it is a real good thing to see people making and releasing levels, even if they are TC's that make deathmatch difficult. If no one made new wads, then it would make for a more boring forum here wouldn't it? I tend to agree with some others that I don't recognize what he could have stole from in the levels, but in the textures I see some similarities to others. I say "big deal," because I get letters from people who hate Doom and tell me all the levels look alike anyway. On a separate note, the author released it actually six months earlier, but he told me it was still up for improvement and additions.