Ling's Ideas, 8/99

[Guest stauf7]

I think the idea for a new doom is spectacular, and I for one have been waiting a long time to see it. I think Doom had the best single-player experience during its time because of its simplicity. I think, with the newest technology, you can take this simple game plan, and just enhance it. Take the 3d models for instance. As explained above, nothing would please me more than to see a little personality along with the enemies that used to scare the dickens out of me. An imp or a baron of hell jerking its neck toward me, before turning around to stomp in my direction. This would definately enhance the experience. Another idea, is the new concept known as EAX. Directional sound, is definately a must have.. and I hope iD software makes sure to take advantage of this. The noise of pursuing enemies was a plus in the original doom, but can you imagine knowing just where they are coming from, even to the point where you can hear them gaining on you? This would definately add to the fear factor, especially if it were a large dangerous creature like the cyberdemon, hunting you down. Personally, I think the new Doom project is a difficult thing to pull off. You have to retain the old style to which it was created, but also forge the new concepts into it, without losing the positives from either age of FPS. I wish iD good luck with this, and I WILL purchase this game.. I haven't lost faith in iD yet for a superb product.

[Guest Panopticon]

As much as many of us would love to see "Classic Doom" refreshed with today's technology, the new installment in the Doom series doesn't have to follow the original too closely to be a success. Myk hits the nail on the head when he emphasizes the *mood* of the original: suspense, fear of something alien and unknown, and of course those plentiful moments of adrenaline-packed, monster-horde-slaying action. I submit that if the new Doom's monster set merely updates the classic hell-hordes, we could easily lose that crucial "unknown" element. Also, because Doom was such a novelty and no one at the time was an experienced 3D gamer, part of that sensation of the "unknown" came sheerly from feeling like a powerless, vulnerable human player, at least at first. If id can introduce new gameplay elements, that would go a long way towards recreating the same feel. By "new gameplay elements" I don't mean a complex new interface with lots of functions -- that would be the antithesis of Doom. I mean something more along the lines of forcing us to learn new tactics and responses to the situations. Half-Life did that with their giant sound-sensitive plant creatures, for example, and even though that particular monster wouldn't fit well in Doom (slows down gameplay too much), it's a good illustration of forcing players to come up with new strategies on the fly. Although Citrus wants to see more of Hell in the new installment, I'm definitely with Fanatic in preferring the first episode, which I consider easily the best level set in either Doom I or II. Let frightening glimpses of Hell be interspersed throughout the first three-quarters of the game, so that players have sweaty palms from wondering what in the world is waiting for them when they finally enter that completely alien realm. Save Hell for the very end, and then cut loose with the total fury. :-) Honestly, if id simply gets the "feel" of Doom right, then there's a lot of different ways they could make the game the incredible, overwhelming experience that we're all hoping for. It doesn't have to be a one-for-one conversion/update of the original, so long as they recapture that feel. "Doom" spelled backwards is, after all, "mood". Oh, and one more thing: the new Doom's monsters should be absolutely BRUTAL. That doesn't mean they should be invincible ('cause we love that "mowing down the hordes" stuff), but every one of them has to have exactly one thing on its mind: ripping the player to shreds ASAP. If you get to hang back and have a sniping war with the baddies from a distance, it ain't Doom. :-)

[Guest ViolentEd]

I'd like to see the base infested rather. Turned into hell. Like Aliens. Where it slowly becomes more and more like a nest. More and more like hell instead. Except a little more gradual. Untill one set, chapter, episode or whatever is entirely in the bowels of hell itself.

[Guest Confusion]

ViolentEd, go away.

[Guest Anonymous User]

At first I was wary of another doom game coming to pass because I felt it would ruin the 'original' doom following. But now after reading Linguicas ideas for it, I see that this could be a great thing anyways. So Im looking forward to this now, though Ill be saving up some $ for a beeter computer than my p166... -Mantra

[Guest Anonymous User]

Ling is probably going to erase this, cuz I seem to be the one person not intent on kissing his ass.

Ling, you seem to have described a new game that is EXACTLY like doom with dressed-up graphics. If I want that, I'll play ZDoomGL. There is absolutely NO reason why the new game can't focus on plot and gameplay and not be 100% balls-to-the-wall. AvP was basically Doom given a modern treatment: scary ambience, lots of immersion, 100% action, kickass enemies.

You seem to want the same monsters that look at you, grunt, and shamble towards you throwing far attack frames until you either kill them or they get close enough to bite you ineffectually. I think we should take the basic plot--demons invade, single space marine fights through hordes--and depart from there. How about new locations? Ships, space stations, REAL-looking futuristic cities. Give Doomguy new abilities. Shouldn't space marines be able to rappel up & down walls, break down doors? Does anyone else think you should NOT be able to stand there punching and kill all the enemies in a level as they wander up to you?

If the game plays out like you guys want it to--basically the same weak AI as doom, the same locations, the same hordes of demons--it's going to play like shit.

[Guest Anonymous User]

If Id is going to try and make a new doom game they need to leave the pak, pk3, and other quake trash in their recycle bin and return to the wad format. Those of you that have zdoom know what I mean when your run a good .exe and a wad. Judging by the lousy levels of their doom2 they never perfected wad making.

[Guest Anonymous User]

i think that D2K should have a totally original plot. If I weant to play a quick remake, I'd rather get a source port. -Laters.

[Guest Kermit]

I think that the what the Doom community WANTS is an updated, modern DooM(NOT Doom 64). Zdoomgl, Legacy, EDGE, etc. proves this. However, we want MORE than what some lone, albiet very talented programmers can do. I believe Id got it right the first time. I think that they should do their best to improve greatly upon the original, not change or replace the formula. Also, before they make NewDooM, they better play ZdoomGL.

[Guest Confusion]

I seem to have commented far too many times on this already, but anyway...the anon who posted the comment describing Linguica's ideas as "a new game that is EXACTLY like doom with dressed-up graphics" obviously has an IQ of slightly lower than he average lost soul. DOOM III IS SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE DOOM, DAMNIT! THERE WULDN'T BE A LOT OF POINT IN IT BEING 'DOOM' IF IT WEREN'T 'DOOM', WOULD THERE? In any case, Ling's ideas are not just a fancied-up version of DOOM II. Did you actually READ any of them, or just glance over them briefly, comprehend nothing, and start making vague negative comments? Here's a quote: "You seem to want the same monsters that look at you, grunt, and shamble towards you throwing far attack frames until you either kill them or they get close enough to bite you ineffectually." No, he doesn't. When did he say that? When did ANYBODY say that? In any case, most of the monsters in DOOM II don't "shamble", anyway. They sort of...walk. In any case, if DOOM is going to be updated, OF COURSE THE FRIGGING AI IS GOING TO BE IMPROVED. EVERYBODY, *EVERYBODY*, YES, EVEN US PEDANTIC PURISTS, WANTS THE AI TO BE IMPROVED. "I think we should take the basic plot--demons invade, single space marine fights through hordes--and depart from there." But then it wouldn't be DOOM, would it? You can't call it DOOM and then throw out all the basic DOOM fundamentals. It'd be like Quake II was to Quake - almost completely unrelated. I don't want that. Linguica doesn't want that. I'm sure not many bloody people want that...except you. "How about new locations? Ships, space stations, REAL-looking futuristic cities." Again, THAT'S NOT WHAT DOOM IS. DOOM is Hell. Alright? Hell and tech bases, more or less. Why change the fundamental concepts when they work so damn well? Hmm? "Give Doomguy new abilities. Shouldn't space marines be able to rappel up & down walls, break down doors?" Did anybody say those sort of things were bad? Did Ling say that those sorts of things are things he would certainly not want implemented? I don't think so. But anyway, if you add to many of these sorts of features, you loose the DOOMiness of it all. Climbing up and down walls? Gee. Breaking down doors? Isn't that what DOOR HANDLES are for? And why would you NEED to knock down a door? Key collection becomes pointless - why wander past legions of hellspawn to get some small red glowing skull when you can kick down the frigging door and save yourself all that trouble? "If the game plays out like you guys want it to--basically the same weak AI as doom, the same locations, the same hordes of demons--it's going to play like shit." Yeah. Of course. Just like DOOM and DOOM II did. And don't start saying that 'things have changed now' - if things have changed so much, why are you still playing DOOM? Well? DOOM III does not need to be a clone of DOOM II. It will not be a clone. It will expand upon DOOM II, but not throw DOOM II out the windows. If it is almost a completely new games, then it isn't DOOM. End of story.

[Guest Confusion]

Just after I post my comment, I discover that Kermit has jumped in just before me and said everything I have in a sentence or two. Great.

[Guest Nookadum]

Wolf3D: B.J. (eck, nice name) versus Nazi's. Scary, nice enemy placement. Adolf Hitler was a bitch when he pops up at me when I destroyed his armor. <== This was the best game IMHO. Ultimate Doom/Doom: Doomguy versus hell on a couple of moons. Nice ambience, nice levels. Doom2: Levels were OKAY, not very good, just enough to satisfy the need for single player. Quake: OMG, this was ALMOST perfect. 3D movements, cept for ducking. The AI was good. Quake 2: Levels rocked, monsters sucked. All weapons EXCEPT for the railgun, hyperblaster, and BFG sucked. Quake 3: This really sucked. 3D Engine needs a high-end machine, weapons really fucked. Bot AI was VERY advanced, which is good, but I think that's the only thing good about Quake 3. Daikatana (John Romero): Single Player ROCKED, multiplayer is just beginning. Nuff said. Well, Quake 2 and Quake 3 really sucked because John Romero left. Didn't anyone see that? Daikatana's single player experience took off like a rocket and is still soaring near the sun. Doom 2000 shouldn't be like Quake 2 and Quake 3, maybe use the Quake 3 engine. Also, those gay teammate bots in Daikatana really sucks, if ID is gonna put them in like in Daikatana, I hope they beef up their AI to the fullest. I don't want them to fall off cliffs for no idiotic reason. Those are my $0.02 cents. =)

[Guest IcarusWing]

I have to agree with the guy that said your ideas are a rehash of DooM - sure we want all the action, but I want so much more as well. I want a plot, damnit. If there's a level called Nuclear Refinery (or whatever it was called, my memory escapes me) make it look like one. Half-Life was cool because of the plot... DooM]|[ could be too.

[Guest Confusion]

Next person to suggest we add a proper plot to DOOM - you are doomed, friend, doomed.

[NiGHTMARE]

As much as people might not want a plot, more and more FPS games these days have them. You have to remember that ID have to make sure the game sells, and I think the majority of the public have gotten sick of FPS games simply featuring mindless shooting nowadays.

[Megalyth]

I think some of your ideas are good, Linguica, but the levels following the exact same format (ep1: tech-base, ep2: tech-hell, ep3: hell) would be redundant. We've been there already. A reworked episode 1 style would be cool, but after that, it should be different. I think the idea of visiting familiar territory is good, such as being able to enter certain parts of the episode 1 bases again and then being forced to take a different path out. New ground to cover with a taste of the old would help keep the game fresh. Perhaps when you enter an area from familiar episode 1, the player will have a flashback or a cutscene of a past memory showing the player fighting imps and demons in that same area will play, then it will fade out and return to the normal game. Having new levels with chunks of the old ones will please gamers who have been playing Doom since it's birth, and will also appeal to new-school gamers who originally never played Doom.

Variations on the old monsters would be nice too. Specific defects in the zombies (mashed faces, split skin on different body areas), some imps are bigger and therefore stronger, etc. Things like that keep the monsters mostly the same, but not so redundant that you think "Great, another imp" and blow it away. You have to take into consideration how quick and strong this particular imp is, and be careful not to engage in close-quarters combat. If you run up to an imp and punch it and it proceeds to kick your ass down the hallway, you'll know that using the fist wasn't a good idea. :)

As for the weapons, the old ones should be there for the most part, and new ones should be introduced as well. Pretty much everyone can agree on that point. We still want the BFG, obviously, and many people like the double barreled, myself included. Most, if not all of, the original weapons should be present, it's almost a given.

I also think that scripted sequences would be cool as well, such as seeing a cyberdemon stomp past in the distance and knowing that you will have to face it down sooner or later. Things like that add to the suspense. Maybe later on you see him again, and unexpectedly he smashes through the wall down the hallway and you proceed to shit yourself and run for your life. You could come across a window, and through it you see a revenant come around the corner of the hallway on the other side, and you think "I'm safe, there's a window", and precisely at that moment, the revenant runs up to the window and puts his fist through it. Once again, you shit yourself and have to fight unprepared. This sequence also provides you with new path: the broken window. Carefully constructed sequences such as this add to the supense and still have that "Oh shit, I'm in trouble" feeling of the original Doom.

I'm just hoping the new Doom game doesn't go in the wrong direction. Id software is out of whack in the single player department. But like Ola stated, the game was just announced and is still a ways off. I'm hoping that they'll get back in the single player swing and give us the best Doom yet.

[Guest Mangod1385]

Around 1997 some books were released that were based on the DooM series, the first book followed the game exactly, the next book wasnt quite as good, anyone know what im tlaking about?

[Guest Anonymous User]

What I've experienced with many of the newer FPS is that all this new technology isn't quite perfected to acquire good atmosphere that Doom, with it's simple technologies, managed to do so well. I'm mainly talking about how monsters look and behave - in quake 2 they didn't quite cut it for me - I still think the Demon's of Doom munching on a Trooper are and Cacodemons and Baron of Hells fighting are still superior to any monsters in any game I've played. It's important to understand what makes a game so good - it takes a lot more than fancy "technology" (this is the wrong word, but you know what I'm talking about) to make a good game - the music - the sound,the levels and the monsters all worked so well together in doom - which, IMO, is why it was such a great game. The best yet. No game, not even half life, are as good as the atmosphere that DOOM captured. I'd rather mediocre technology with great atmosphere than a bunch of cool effects that don't create a a powerful first person experience. After all, it comes down to the experience created that makes a game good and last a long time - not nifty effects that soon lose their - what the hell's the damn word - coolness for lack of the word I can't think of and soon become just another kinda cool game. Nothing beats E1M5 music mixed with the sound of Demons snorting near by, whilst a Baron of Hell walks in and bellows his awesome welcome cry. So what I'm saying is - let's try to remember what makes a game good - if id can get all the "technology" well implemented to create an experience and atmosphere as good as DOOM, DOOM2000 will be much better than DOOM because it will have much more detail - assuming they can create the atmoshpere and experience equal to DOOM with all the cool details and "technology" - that will prove to be a very hard task - but the potential is very exciting :).

[Guest scar3crow]

MegaLyth those are some excellent points as are many of yours Ling. Id love to make another trip to the Tower of Babel (this time it actually being a tower that you can see in the distance from previous levels like the big gun in Q2) Where you come across and see the remains of the old cyberdemon...rotted now some of course...as portions of the pillars at the top have crumbled in spots. it fades out in a flashback of a vague quick and brutal battle with Lord Cyberdemon as it then gradually fades back...as you then move on past the remains a wall explodes open as 2 cyberdemons *larger then the original of course* come thundering in. As you now have to do battle with these and leave the way they came in. Course having some real ai in there would be nice as one blocks the exit and the other comes for you. I love the idea of a Latin speaking arch vile... maybe throw in some romanian to (in tribute to Vladmir Teppes aka Vlad the Impaler aka Dracula). And on new weapons...what ever you do DONT put in a railgun...it just doesnt fit the game... Its fine for mods. But it doesnt belong in doom. Maybe a grenade launcher of sorts...and a more traditional marine style weapon (an assault rifle of sorts...short accurate burts with nice tracer effects =)) And the idea of different "species" of enemies would be nice. Kinda like in Diablo they have around 8 different kinds of skeletons. and then they have different weapons armed. Just like you could have slightly different skinned and sized imps... some that literally breathe streams of fire instead of just throwing a fireball...maybe some big hulking ones with many more spikes on them that can really rip you up in melee. And i know this is HIGHLY unlikely but ive always had visions of cyberdemons standing 10 stories tall and spider masterminds the width of a block or so and around 4 or 5 stories tall...maybe 6 or 8... And maybe a return of the Icon of Sin only more 3d as an actual skull embodied with the earth through pipes pumping blood and flesh into it to power it. And a revisit to the original one after its been smashed all to hell possibly... These are just some thoughts. I just hope that id can do this...since Q2 theyve let me down. Maybe they can bring back that old feel. If only they had Romero McGee Peterson and Hall on em with this. And if Brandon James hadnt quit during Q3...he coulda made some sweet levels....we all know how twisted and great his ideas were =)

[Guest Anonymous User]

The originial music, in high-quality on an extra CD would rock. DOOM III should have all new music. Just like DOOM II had compared to DOOM. And unlike some other guy, I'd want par, time and so on to stay. Instead of cutscenes, a handdrawn picture between each map would be great. Maybe a scene from the next map or a generic cool picture. Those episode-end-pictures in DOOM were very cool. Maybe cutscenes at episode ends? More secret maps, and eastereggs than the prevous DOOM games. DOOM II should imo have had 4 secret maps. 5 would be a good number for DOOM III. 8-6 dm maps, and 30 regular. No hubbing and no huge plot.

[Guest Anonymous User]

I agree with your overall point 100%. Whatever id does - it's very important, crucial really, that they keep the doomness atmosphere and experience in DOOM III/2000. I personally think it should be more like the original 3 episodes - as they were the best. DOOM 2 didn't have as good an atmosphere - too open and brown - did not have the distinct, unique, original atmoshpere of, say E1M7, E2M4 or E3M4. The more I talk about it, the more I come to the conclusion that what made doom so fun was the atmosphere - the music - the levels - the sound effects - and the monsters behavior - all so well working together. So DOOM III should strive to have a slightly different atmosphere, but still be unmistakably doom. Atmoshpere is just as important, if not more than logistics. It's the exact same thing with Warcraft 2 - simplest game - no fancy graphics, no fancy AI, not that these wouldn't enhance it, they certainly would - but the overall experience created is much more important than nifty graphics and cool acting monsters.

[Guest Anonymous User]

I just want a really fancy version of the original doom...And a flame thrower.

[Jeremy]

Well, I'm late, sorry, but I'm surprised that id is making a new Doom game. The others didn't have much of a plot... but I didn't really care about that... the action was great. It also had some kick-ass weapons. If id wants to make the new doom a big hit, they'll need multiplayer (of course), better graphics, maybe a new or better plot, and some new weapons. I'm looking forward to this... wonder how long the wait will be?

[NiGHTMARE]

Sandy Peterson's levels were, umm... well, not the best ones. I believe he made one of the most appalling levels ever, Doom 2's the Chasm. In fact, I think he might be colourblind :)

[Guest Rtoast]

Well, if there is a new doom, its gotta be bigger, flashier and all that good stuff right. You know how in the end of DooM you got into the escape pod and crashed on earth, in frong of that city, and it shows the city burning down, and the DooM Guy is like "oh no. . . I go through all that just to find Hell On Earth" I think that they should do more on the "Hell On Earth" concept, (as well as some space station/ tech stuff) That would be awesom if like half way through the game you hop into an escape pod towards earth, crash land, and the hatch opens and its the same scene, the city is burning, only this time the city is more realistic. (sort of like "downtown" from doom2) Like, you get out and start running to through the streets, buildings are on fire, Imps and Demons are just trashing the place. Shops are being destroyed. People (civilians) are running around in panic getting slaughtered. Cars are getting destroyed and clawed. Fire hydrants are busted and spouting water out into the street. Just total carnage. That would be awesome. And have a demon like the cyber demon only make him a lot bigger, like godzilla sized. Like say you run into a building and are on like the 20th floor, you pass a window and look out into the city, then a giant horned cyberdemon head passes by the window! That would be bad ass. And he could destroy parts of your building tearing a hole in the side of it so you can jump out and stuff. You could fight him through the windows and stuff, like shooting him in he head. There could be news helicopters out trying to film the whole mess (you know there would be too) and they would be flying around while your slaughtering the massive horde of demons. Well I could go on and stuff. . . but these are just my thoughts.

[Hyena]

Okay, I created a story, and will upload it to my site soon enough. I'll let everyone know.
By the way, thanks for the horrible story, Darkyouth. It was very inspiring in a negative sense.

[Guest Anonymous User]

It would be awesome if the quake3 multiplayer search engine is putted to action in doom. so you can create games,and find multiplayer one's.

[Guest Twitch]

As one of the few people who want to talk reality, i hafta say that most peoples ideas are well...bad. Ling's idea is the only realistic one, I mean you want 50 monsters on screen, gibs and detailed models. Umm detailed models are 1,500 polys if we add gibs it add the ability of doubling that(Play SoF and fully dismember a body it seperates the legs and arms and even spills the guts) I mean this will run decently on a intel 800 with 256 megs of 133Vram and a GeForce 2 computer. I mean that setup is like 2,000 without a monitor or anything(check on micron.com) Plus most users aren't even up to par with a graphics card at all. D2K should run of a modified Q3 engine(the Q3 runs on my friends 200 pentium decently) have A3D and EAX sound(sound made doom good)good enemies, good weapons and, yes, a plot. Not a huge plot but something decent. For weapons we need good weapons not freaking the same rehash. We need a new plasama gun and Bfg(BFG 3k?) and NO RAIL GUN that is stupid rail gun is Quake, if they put a rail gun in D2k i don't think i will wanna play it. Just thoughts, go ahead flame me, but i do know what i am talking about.

[Guest Anonymous User]

(probably) the only thing that will make this game make me jump out of my seat, is an Alien-like monster that is fast and scary. and it moves in a nightmare-like fashion, like the impression i got when i saw a Demon for the first time... and i ran.

[Guest Anonymous User]

that was me btw