The /newstuff Chronicles #12

[stphrz]

Completely non-linear? To me that means, it should be possible to finish that map by bypassing 85% of it all together. It also means that you need not hit one single switch or find one single key or solve any puzzles to access the exit. Maps need some degree of linearity imo. I mean you spend a lot of time and work really hard to make a good level. You want to make sure the player sees most of it least :) Anyway, I think the best solution is a combination of techniques to provide variety. In some fights, the monsters are controlled. In other cases, things are hectic and totally out of control. Some fights are in wide open areas where the player can charge around however he likes, picking his own targets or trying to set up infighting amongst the monsters. Others are in tighter spaces where it's tougher to evade or respond to surprise attacks. Some confrontations should provide tactical challenge, others could serve merely to scare the piss out of the player. Give the players plenty of choices on where they can go, but still have some overall structure or order of things. Otherwise you risk creating a giant maze. Getting lost sucks :)

[AndrewB]

Isn't it strange how /newstuff Chronicles with four to eight or so WADs get thirty, forty, fifty plus comments, while /newstuff Chronicles with twenty-three WADs get six?

[Hellbent]

Heh- kinda - but all these comments are about one wad - so if wasabi wasn't in the list - that wouldn't be the case. Hey, is there any chance you could add LostRefinery.zip to this edition of newstuff or to the next one? I either sent it in after you got the wads from newstuff or you didn't think it was up to snuff....

[Aardappel]

That's why I think it would be cooler if an SP game had as objective "kill 90% of all monsters" (or any %) instead of "reach the exit". That way it could be totally non linear (no keys, switches or linear reachability needed) and still you would be assured the player has to "conquer all areas" as he has to in classic SP. Map design would have significantly more freedom!

[prower]

To me at least, non-linearity involves some sort of choice of the player. In Doom levels, this is namely in the old "the exit requires three keys, get them all in whatever order you want". City-type levels, such as Downtown or The Cathedral (13 and 19 in Doom2) show non-linearity in the sense that not all areas are required to visit, and there's quite a bit of path-crossing. Even if you have to walk back and forth a lot, that doesn't make a level non-linear. Sure, from a geometric perspective it will have a lot of back and forth movement, but to the player it will probably still be "pull this switch, go back and get this key, go pull the next swtich, etc."

100% non-linearity, as stphrz pointed out, would require that 100% of the level was not required to visit and could be visited in any order, including the exit. Sorry, 100% non-linearity isn't possible :P

[prower]

"Unfortunately, keeping the player moving while pounding on monsters is boring."

In your opinion, maybe. Considering the popularity and number of demos made for Hell Revealed, I'd say otherwise.

[Guest q.pixel[rex]]

stphrz: There are many ways to make sure the player completes all the parts lol. The first is the one used in Hunter: Mancubies spread out around the map using Map07 trigger effects. The second works on all maps: have a bridge that raise by 24 each time it's flipped, then spread the switches throughout the map. Last but also most effective (works on all maps) is use tag 666 with COMMANDER KEEN. Place the keen in dummysectors that will get crushed when a "node" switch has been flipped. When all keens die, all sectors tagged "666" will raise like a door.

Prower: The popularity of Hell Revealed Demos is competitive play of long and difficult fights. And not to mention, the monsters in Hell Revealed are placed with thought...to surround, to oppress the player into certain locations, and to attack from superior locations.

[stphrz]

To me that means, it should be possible to finish that map by bypassing 85% of it all together. It also means that you need not hit one single switch or find one single key or solve any puzzles to access the exit. Maps need somedegree of linearity imo.

From my previous post. If you use the techniques you mentioned, you are introducing linear elements into your map. They are more subtle than "get the key to open a door." But linear elements none the less. You are introducing an order of things. 1. Kill all mancubus 2. Exit. 1. Flip all switches. 2. Exit. Etc. Although you can kill the mancubus in any order, or flip the switches in any order your map is no longer 100% non linear.

[Aardappel]

prower: "Sorry, 100% non-linearity isn't possible :P" ? I just told you how the post before. Yes this would require a mod (acs script?) of some sort, but it is doable.

I would like to see a whole wad with extremely non-linear maps (no keys, DM style connectivity), using the "raising 24 on each switch" or "kill the keens" method, as mentioned by pixel rex (though kill 90% of monsters would be still better, means you don't have to hunt switches). Throw in some HR style gameplay and you will have something a lot of fun to play. Anyone up for this? :)

that recently released blastem2.wad uses the "kill the keens" method.

[kristus]

That 666 tag is also activated when you kill all the baron of hells.

[NiGHTMARE]

1) Stuff doesn't appear in the /Newstuff Chronicles simply because it is moved out of the directoy by Ty before AndrewB spots it.

The solution: sack Andrew and hire someone willing to check /newstuff more often =p

2) Non-linear doesn't mean you don't have to go somewhere, it just means that you don't have to go there at a particular time.

3) In vanilla doom.exe/doom2.exe, as well as many ports, the 666 tag only works in certain maps (for instance, Doom 1 E1M8).

4) Err, the Free Hissy button make it look as though its in a Microwave :)

[Risen]

If you build it, I'll script it for you.

[Tormentor667]

Well, it seems as nobody tried the X-Mas Deathmatch until today :-/ TRY IT!!!!!

[AndrewB]

Uhh, WADs stay in /newstuff for ten days before they're moved out. There's no way I could miss anything in there.

[Hellbent]

I think it's cause I put it in *after* you got what was in the folder.

[Guest q.pixel[rex]]

That works on all maps but 07...

100% non-linearity would mean you could do anything in any order as long as you completed them all...so it'll be kill mancubies/smash keens/flip switches in any order. how is that impossible?

[stphrz]

Aardappel's solution to creating a totally non linear map sounds the best to me by far. I hope someone actually attempts to do this. It would be an interesting experiment for sure.

[Guest Mattrim.]

This thread has grown into something really interesting. You have all raised very good, and very inspiring, comments regarding level design. Keep it up...!

[AndrewB]

I don't review levels all in one big lump. I download and write them up as they arrive.

[Hellbent]

In that case, how did my level get missed?

[Aardappel]

Well, risen has offered to make a script for it (it seems), and I'd happily make 1 or 2 maps for such a wad, but someone else would need to organize it (and whip other mappers into action).

[Aardappel]

can we summarise existing Doom possibilities for non linearity? especially since none of this seems to documented anywhere (UDS etc.):

sector(s) tagged by 666 rise when all keens die, or all mancubis if its map07. Barons have the same effect on all maps?

using something like line special 15, have a bridge rise 24 on each button pressed.

using an ACS script. Does an ACS script allow a script to be triggered on every kill? does it allow you to test the number of monsters alive? does it have a function of ending the map from the script? could it display a "monster counter" on screen?

[AndrewB]

Because the level arrived late Saturday night, after the /newstuff had been posted.

[stphrz]

Well, I have little doubt that making essentially completely non-linear single player levels is certainly possible. A question I have is, is it desireable? I mean, it will make for different gameplay than the type of Doom levels we are all used to, but will it be better? There will be many pitfalls and new things to consider when building the levels. As Pixel pointed out, the playtesting time will increase dramatically. I guess the only sure way to know is to try it :) I'm game for this.

[NiGHTMARE]

Aardapel, all the things you mention can be done with ACS. In fact, a monster counter was included with the recently released RTC Doom demo.

[AndrewB]

New "Non-Linear" levels, such as kill 90% of monsters would be a very good thing. I think it would be desirable. Sure, we're not used to it, but who isn't willing to try out something new and exciting? That doesn't mean you can't have keys and switches, either. It's definitely a good idea.

[Aardappel]

I wouldn't dare claim that it is universally better than classic (linear maps can be a lot of fun), but I think this would be refreshingly new.

Personally, having to find keys and switches allways bothers me, because it remembers me that what I am playing is "choreographed" to lead me in a certain direction, which destroys the feeling of atmosphere and discovery (not so much in doom as this is pretty light on "guiding the player", but newer games like HL etc.). I'd much rather prefer to discover areas myself, and be forced to do so because I have to exterminate everything that moves. I also think it be more appropriate for the intense "fight monsters from all directions" type of gameplay which doom is naturally good at, and which I find a lot more enjoyable than "face one monster directly in front of you at a time".

Also, I think it would be more fun to map for. SP maps have to be planned out so much (they feel more like scenery the player is guided thru than a real place), but maps for this kind of gameplay can be as easy as DM map, where you simply make a nice "world" with any connectivity you like. More freedom -> more creativity.

Anyway, this thread will die now because it is about to run off the doomworld news page. If someone starts this up let me know :)

[Guest q.pixel[rex]]

Actually, it'll be even better to give the editor FULL control over what monsters are required to be killed in order for auto-exit. The 90% kill could be flawed since both a cyb and an imp counts as one enemy. If a map had 1 cyb and 9 imps, then killing the 9 imps would complete the map...that that isn't really beating the map is it? As nick said, using monster count but applying it ONLY to monsters with a certain tag...(ie trigger the count only when specified monsters die)

[Aardappel]

Maybe that's the idea of the map: kill the imps while dodging the cyberde(a)mon. And if the cyberdemon is that important, set required kills to 100%.

But most maps aren't that tightly balanced. You should be able to set any %. I can think of map designs where 10% would be a fun challenge.

Tagging monsters could be an idea but I doubt it is needed. You could make a "barons must die" wad I suppose, would save you the scripting.