DWBS

[Swedish Fish]

That ten sector's pic looks good. I like the it. If Lutz wasn't so good at levels I'd suggest he work on gfx.

[Swedish Fish]

I don't know where that extra "the" came from. It was supposed to read: I like it.

[Guest The Mole]

You were probably going to type "I like the picture" or something but ended up with "I like the it" OR maybe you missed two letters and it was supposed to be "I like the shit" :-)

[kristus]

Who cares?

Anyway. that pic is great. stick with it.

[stphrz]

This contest was fun. I'm looking forward to playing the megawad and all the other levels too. The other day I was thinking about all the contestants who entered(some more than once). There were many who's work I've seen before and been blown away by. So many in fact that I'm postive there must have been more than just 32 really good levels submitted. I have a feeling that a lot of the levels that didn't make the top 32 will still be top notch :)

[Guest Retter]

Man, I'd really like to see a listing of the authors in the megawad...or maybe that would spoil the surprise...

[KinkaJoy]

Best 320 sectors? If my level makes it in, then it will only be 319 sectors. ;)

[Guest Dense13]

Congratulations for a great contest. The idea was great.

I hope there will be a list with all the levels submitted and their authors, and the possiblity to download all maps. 138 wads are quite a lot, but I think I'd like to try them all (in my case, in much more than 6 weeks!). I can't wait!

[Lutz]

Ok, a couple things. First, yes, my level is large; I forget the stats, but it has a LOT of vertices & linedefs. And yes, the screenshot shows about 1/5 of the level (which is mirrored and flipped upside down because it just looked better). I would be more than happy to create a title pic with the winner's map in the background, if I knew the winner and had his/her map or a screenshot thereof.

Ling, wanna give it away? I can keep a secret. Really.

[Guest Confusion]

I don't think it really matters [i]which[i] level is in the background, as long a [i]a[i] level is there. Hell, it could just be a random collection of lines and it would still look good. To be honest, I didn't even realise it was a map at first, I thought it was just a nice grey-line pattern. Leave the background as it is. Lutz's level looks fine.

[Guest Confusion]

Sorry, the italics were supposed to be on which and a. Wasn't paying attention there.

[Hellbent]

I don't know how much you all like the e1 style levels of DOOM 1, but I bet if DOOMWORLD put up another $250 prize for the winner of the best e1 style level, by the end of the contest, there would be three episodes each better than id's original. Many people agree that those levels were the best incarnation of the doom engine. I mentioned this idea to Ling but he didn't think anything of it. But, perhaps if you, the people, think it's an interesting contest idea, Ling would reconsider.

THE CONCEPT:
I came up with some possible guidelines to help ensure true e1 styleness. But first, let me say why I want to do this contest. One reason I've already mentioned: most everyone agrees e1 levels were the best doom levels ever. The other reason is no one, including myself, has been able to recapture the e1 atmosphere and style although many have tried. Another point to consider is that each contributor to the episode only needs to make one level. So the focus quality will be enormous, as it was with the 10 sectors contest.
Now for the guidelines: I was thinking that those with a reputation for making good levels, or the winner of the 10 sectors contest, could be designated to make the first, last and secret levels of the episode. This would help with uniformity as well as be a priveledge, and, of course, it ensures a quality entrance, secret and end level. But maybe a better idea would be to have those be levels people could compete for. Not only would you submit levels to win the prize, but you'd submit levels to compete for the best entrance, ending and secret level. There would be no barons, as they'd be the bosses. Maybe cacodemons would be allowed as they don't seem too out of place in e1 style levels. A Lot of secrets should be encouraged and there should be a texture guideline so people aren't making hellish or just weird levels. Part of the guidelines would be to point out good teture combinations. What floor/ceiling/wall textures go good together. Somehow the guidelines would have to be setup in such a way that all the levels would fit together. But if this is proves impossible to do, the fact that there will be so many levels to choose from should eliminate this problem. Finally, just 9 levels would be selected in the episode: only the cream of the crop. The last guideline would be size restriction. I think one of the elements important to making a coherent episode is that the levels all be roughly the same size- and not too big. id's levels were of good size, and most of the levels were around 150 sectors except for level 6 which is 250 sectors. So the size guideline should be between 150 and 250 sectors.

If anyone has other guidelines they think would help ensure a quality end product or if anyone disagrees with my guidelines, please share your thoughts, thanks.

[Jon]

I don't think that will work as a contest I'm afraid.

[Guest Mattrim.]

Hellbent: 'The other reason is no one, including myself, has been able to recapture the e1 atmosphere and style although many have tried.'

What are you basing that broad assertion on? Whose standards? Have never played Birkel's Fava Beans or Jan Van Der Veken's Dawn of the Dead, to name a few? Many DOOM2 thirty-two level sets, such as Requiem and Memento Mori (2), have levels of an 'Episode One' flavour.

[Hellbent]

'I don't think that will work as a contest I'm afraid.' Can you say why?

'Many ... have levels of an 'Episode One' flavour.' - Yes, many do, but then they stray from the theme or as a whole they just don't quite cut it. Fava beans for example. I was like "yes!" - cause parts of it really succeeded, but then other parts were out of place and as a whole it just didn't pull it off. And then there were parts that seemed to rip straight from id. But you're right, some have succeeded in parts of their levels, but a whole episode of doom1ness to the T would something else....

[AndrewB]

Want real E1 DOOM-style levels? Go play Anthony Soto's Classic series.

[NiGHTMARE]

Umm, Anthony hasn't made the entire series himself, as it sounds like you're saying.

Anyway, E1 style levels might be good, but THREE EPISODES of them? Gak!

[Jon]

hellbent: no, I'm afraid I can't really say why. I'm not really sure, but it doesn't seem clear-cut, or whatever... I know the judges can decide what an episode 1 style level looks like, but the designer is taking a shot in the dark in that respect, their level may be disqualified or not...

[Guest Niptlar]

Don't tell level designers to make a map in a certain style; it'll kill creativity. Besides, E2 rules! :p

[Aardappel]

"most everyone agrees e1 levels were the best doom levels ever."

Yawn. You, and everyone who agrees with you without blinking, are so psychologically deluded it's not even funny. Get a grip.

A few hints: how fucking likely is it that the first maps ever made (more or less) also happen to be the best even after thousants and thousands more have been made? And second, because Doom was very impressive when it came out (first proper 3d experience), and those are the first maps you came in contact with, do you reckon that will have had any effect on your judgement of said maps?

I know the answer but I'm not telling, because that stressed look on your face is way too amusing.

[stphrz]

E1M5. E1M7. My favorite levels ever. I played Doom2 before I played Ultimate Doom. I played Final Doom before I played Ultimate Doom. I also played Darkening E1, Memento Mori, and Requeim before I played Ultimate Doom. I've also played many addons since. My mind has not changed. Whenever I make a new level, I try to capture what I feel is so great about the original Doom episode 1 levels. I fail every time. So does everyone else. On that I agree with Hellbent. About the contest idea, I'm not so sure. Niptlar is right. Telling everyone to make a map in a certain style is a little too limiting for contest purposes.

[AndrewB]

No, I'd have to agree with Aardappel. The attractiveness of E1 style levels is likely just familiar reminisence. I played Doom 2 before playing the original DOOM as well. And I would have to completely disagree with the statement that most everybody agrees that E1 maps were the best ever created. Those titles belong to Requiem, in my opinion.. It really is a that, a matter of opinion. There is no general consensus to which levels are the best.

[Guest Mattrim.]

Hellbent: 'Yes, many do, but then they stray from the theme or as a whole they just don't quite cut it.'

No standards exist to quantify a map as being akin to Episode One. There is no absolute definition of what an Episode One level is and interpretation of any map is entirely subjective. What you consider to be an unfaithful re-creation of DOOM's Knee Deep in the Dead may satisfy someone else. Case in point: Fava Beans. I consider Birkel's accomplishments in Fava Beans to be a brilliant rendition of what Episode One was to him. It is all subjective...in creation and interpretation.

[Jon]

I played doom before doom2 I think... and after for a LOOOONG time. I think it was a better game overall, but then doom was my first contact with the genre so I may be clouded in that respect.

[Hellbent]

I don't understand why this contest is not worth attempting just because it is vague what constitutes an e1 doom level. And I don't see how it hinders creativity to have that sort of guideline. If anything, it forces you to really hone your skills, and focus your creativity on a specific mood, atmosphere and the overall experience.

At least there's one person who understands that the e1 phenomena was not simply a result of it being the first doom levels and that there actually is something there. I think this contest would be a great exercize in having focused creativity. It's hard to do, but there are so many good level designeres, I'm sure poeple would be able to come up with some good stuff. And why wouldn't it be interesting to see what everyone's different interpretation of e1 is? Wouldn't it be interesting to see what everyone thinks is true e1ness? Ok.. maybe I shouldn't have said everyone has failed at creating knee deep in the dead levels, since that is just my subjective opinion, but I don't think that is grounds to shoot down the idea.

[Hellbent]

Don't get me wrong, I am glad you guys are pointing out problems with the idea as this naturally allows me to make changes to the idea that will increase the odds of it being a success. Although I didn't care much for Aardappel's arrogant response- that wasn't exactly helpful.

[Guest jay_moser]

I think everyone here agrees that Doom e1 levels were great. e2, e3 and e4 were great too. Doom2 was better. A lot of the addon maps that I have played have kicked the pants off id's origionals. Why would you want to make a level that looks just like e1. I do think that it is a good idea for a contest, but why not try to make an e1 style level, that is superior to the origionals in every way. People have gotten better and better at making doom levels. When people were first making doom levels, I admit, lots were crappy. But over time, the levels became almost like a work of art. So I guess what I am trying to say is that everything doom related is the best, and it's a good idea for a contest.

[stphrz]

Finding addon levels that *look* better than id's original maps is not hard to do. Even I, with my limited mapping abilities, am capable of that. Source ports allow more detail, new graphics allow a more varied appearance etc. That's not what I was talking about at all...

[Guest Confusion]

If you want episode one style levels, go and get Vengeance from Walnut Creek. You shall not regret it.

[Guest Confusion]

http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/pub/idgames/levels/doom/Ports/v-z/vengnce.zip