The most f'ed up Doom3 vision yet (Long post)

[Jayextee]

Hmmmm... I've finally decided in my head how I want Doom3 to be. And I'm posting purely for the purpose of how many people blatantly start disagreeing, and how many of you want it to instead be a half-life clone :P

These ideas maybe are a little strange (Or radical?), but I peronally don't want a stale genre to just become staler by repeating itself...

STORY:
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This is post-Doom2, pre-quake3 (Huh? You'll get it somewhere along the line). Basically, the UAC have set up a covert operation to see off the resistance, y'see the UAC own about 95% of all the revenue generated by the Earth alliance. People are not happy with this, and there is a strong resistance. The people don't like the fact that this revenue is _not_ being spent on colonisation of new world and mining, but the experiments with slipgates to the 'other dimension', and attempting to utilise the lifeforms found there as bio-weapons.

Three of the best, from the operation, decide that enough is enough - they were being USED by the UAC, and see the resistance point of view, so decide to try and bring them down from the INSIDE. One of the three, codenamed Phobos, has already been betrayed by the company (See Q3A's apalling storyline). The other two, Doom, and his mentor Crash (Merely codenames) are the best (But Crash is so lame in Q3A - I put this down to the fact that she must have been badly injured somewhere along the line.)

Basically, the three vs the demons AND the UAC. Naff story, but it's not what I play Doom for. Why change?

CHARACTERS:
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Bet you knew I was going somewhere...? I like Hexen's character classes, so this is nearly the exact thing, with Doom (Token all-round guy), Phobos (Mr. Strong-but slow) and Crash (The ubiquitous female-that-is-weak-but-fast). All would be slightly different in usage of weapons, namely Crash would use a grenade launcher, but Phobos would prefer to use his strength and throw them, for example.

WEAPONS:
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Not many weapons, all slotted, all can be upgraded (Providing secondary fire)

1: Fist, Gauntlet (0 slots. Default)
2: Blaster, TAZER add-on (Hold button for prologed shock. Weak) (1 slot)
3: Shotgun, SSG (2 slots)
4: Nailgun, SNG (2 slots)
5: Grenade/Rocket launcher (4 slots)
6: Lightning/Railgun (6 slots)
7: Plasma/BFG (6 slots)

I sould argue that 10 slots be more than enough.
8 for Crash, who is more accurate

Notes: 2 uses no ammo, tazer is line-of-sight only.
4 Regular NG fires accurately but slowly, SNG has 2x rate of fire, but less accurate.
5: Phobos doesn't lauch the grenades, but throws them. The benefit is that they can be held, instead of just lauching.
6: Ammo usage, lightning is just cells, railgun is cells AND slugs. This weapon hums VERY loadly, giving away position to enemies, or foes.
7: The BFG uses ALL cell ammuntion for 1 shot. Similar to Q2 BFG. Plasma gune is as original, maybe lesser fire rate.

Items:
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NO, I DO NOT WANT AN ITEM INVENTORY.
This is OK for more RPG-esque games, such as hexen, but in Doom I think that pick-and-use is the best way. The only inventory screen I want to see is the pick/drop weapons one. More on that later...

As for powerups, all the Doom2 ones, bar Invulnerability.
Lite-amp is now Night-vision, and beserk pack now makes the player unsteady (Like using the PSG1 in Metal Gear Solid), but more resilient to damage. Kinda like green armour that never goes away.

ENEMIES:
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Not going into detail about enemy types, I beleive that the 1/2 cyber enemies (Spiders, cybie, macubus) were tampered with by the UAC. Let's see the original beasts, please. I'd imagine the spider 'brains' to act like a non-exploding spawn from Quake.
Mancubus would beat you with his fists, Cybie (With real legs) VERY agile. Kinda moves like the fiend from quake, but about 100 times tougher to kill (How scary a thought is THAT?)

Obviously, there's going to be pack/territorial behaviour, some monsters are carnivorous, some just prey on others. As for the Pain Elemental, I'd say that it wasn't actually attacking, but reproducing. Let's see a halfway stage between Lost soul, and the evolution to Pain Elemental.

Variations, of course. Mostly either random height/mass/skin/hair/colour fluctuations, but also for beasts that change as they grow, some middle-stages. Also, as for the UAC experiments (Cybie, Spiders, Mancubus), I'd like to be attacked by the ones that went wrong. Mancubi (correct plural?) with faulty weaponry, that explodes. Too bad if you're too close...

Monsters can be held onto with the USE button, for disorientation, and causing fights.

Levels:
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Barrels should be IN. Not only do they have an area effect, but they fire shrapnel (Remains of the actual barrel). Keep away!

Lava KILLS. But there could be a puzzle here. Lava lake. You MUST get to the other sied. Blind Mastermind (Think about the variations). You have to hitch a ride on the M/Mind, but you're too heavy - it'll notice, and shake you off. Drop your weapons down to 4 slots, and you're light enough for him/her not to notice. Now, did you REALLY need all those weapons?

Nukage poisons for a while, causing health to slowly decrease, but this wears off. REALLY radioactive nukage has the welcome side-effect of replenishing cell ammo, so it's not all bad.

Geo-mod engine? No, but I think there should be some visible 'weak walls' that have to be destroyed. Actually, the game should be based around a HUB structure. When you have the grenades, you can now go back to level two to bomb the weak wall at the beginning, etc. Maybe keycards are inter-level, too.
Obviously, new troops are always going to be waiting, alerted to you position, or new monsters, feasting off the corpses of the ones you've slain. Time passes and things happen.

Music:
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Oh god, did I have to bring it up?
Actually yes. It should be context-sensitive, a la the 'Cyber-Sound' in Saturn game, NiGHTS. Basically a variation on the theme, new riffs and instruments are added/taken away as things happen. Maybe a once quiet background riff will become louder when you're low on health - inducing paranoia. Music would raise slightly in tempo when more enemies are present, and maybe the drums would become more pronounced when new weapons/powerups are picked up. Music should echo underground, and be muffled when underwater. Hell, I loved hearing that on Super NES games!
I also remember the instrument thing in Super Mario World - when riding Yoshi, the drums would play and the mood changed.

MODES:
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Single play, and DM that's it.
Leave the rest for mod-makers, who IMO always produce better CTF/whatever mods than the companies.

Maybe added modes upon completion, a proper time attack (Instead of just trying to beat par) and maybe different routes added/taken away - the door with the boulders in front of it on your first go is now cleared, etc.

That's it. Some of it a reiteration of what I've already said, and maybe some other peope, but I personally want Doom3 to be a GREAT GAME, rather than a 'what we all think post-apocalyptic combat is like' simulator...

And of course, I've left room for other people to build on these ideas. What do you all think?

[NiGHTMARE]

No offence, but if the game was made like this, then Quake 4 would be a more appopriate name...

[Jayextee]

NiGHTMARE said:

No offence, but if the game was made like this, then Quake 4 would be a more appopriate name...

None taken. I'm not a Doom purist, nor a Quake purist. I like good games, and I've described what I think will be a good game.

Besides, who's to say whether it would be more a quake game or not? The quakes are hardly all alike are they? To me, I described a Doom game, with a few quake-like elements, that's all.

[sirgalahadwizar]

*Characters: Sounds ok, but they should be seperated at some point (and possibly see glimpses of each other later on in the game).

*Story: Sounds really cool, actually alot like my deathTC storyline (well, they both share the same plot as UAC and demons both being badguys).

*Selective weapons? (wtf?):
I DONT'T WANT TO SEE ANY MORE OF THIS CHARACTER HAS CERTAIN WEAPONS CRAP AGAIN!!!!!!!!!
Hexen and Hexen 2 put the fires of hell in my eyes over this. Any character should be able to use *ANY* weapon in the game.

Sure they can be specialized in certain weapons or prefer some weapons over others (an AI issue), but Doom shouldn't be restricted from using weapons that either Crash or Phobos can use, and the other way around too.

*Weapons:
Suck, I thought nailguns died (and never saw the use of them over standard firearms anyways - anything that shoots a solid projectily you can actually *SEE* cant be dangerous [unless it is explosive]).

remove the tazer, gauntles, both nailguns, rocket launcher (because they said it wouldn't be in there anyway).

add lots of bullet-type weapons and energy weapons (needs at least 5 "energy" weapons, or weapons that don't use solid ammunition).

railgun should shoot like a machinegun but with bullets that are 2x to 3x as powerful (about as dangerous as original doom plasma rifle but with absolutly no travel time). It is unbalancing to ahve a portable and light weapon that can kill instantly from long ranges (or with only 2 shots).

and BFG shouldn't neccicarily use up all cells, lowest setting uses up 40 (ball-effect, lose the spray), 80 will buy you a ball and spray, 160 will blast through normal doors and create a large explosion, all of the cells used blasts through any door and creates an overload in the weapon.

*Items:
At least i agree with you on something. The characters are going to be more apt to carry weapons and ammo than med-kits, they would just remember in their minds where they saw health packages and go back for them if they got hurt. And special powerups such
as invulnerability would probably instantly imbue the person who touched them with the associated abilities, not something you can carry around (and they shouldn't be in important areas either, should ahve to go out of your way or run a long distance to get the invulnerable player to the impoartant area before the effect wears off).

*need invulnerability and quad-damage like powerup (placed in useless areas though),
*light goggles (makes everything bright and sees infrared interposed on top of it),
*medi-kit (25%),
*medi-resource (nanoprobes that enhance you or fix problems, gives 50% health that can go upto 200, but wears off),
*soulsphere (a spiritual version of the medi-resource, double powerful),
*armors of varying degrees (and don't make them color coded either)
*no more berserker or little bonus items like the potions or helmets

*Enemies:
I wanna see all the monsters from quake, doom, doom2, quake2 make another appearance. This time upgraded and with the "levels" concept added to them (described by deadnail, would make a level 3 demon into a fiend, level 2 into a spectre, and level 1 a simple demon).
Variations must exist, smaller, larger, etc. (and smaller does mean weaker!).
Monsters, even human zombies are probably 2-3x as strong as the player at least! (so holding onto them isn't a good idea).

*Levels:
Need different kinds of levels.

Lava kills quickly, and does residual damage (and hurts you if you even get near it).

Nukage needs to do residual damage (it's toxic, not radioactive). Radioactive nukage should not only do more damage (about 1/3 that of lava), but be residual and downright eat away at your energy cells! (if not make them explode in your face if you have them maxed out).

Geo-mod like red faction is cool, but how much extra will it eat our systems with?

Back and fourth level systems with hubs are a good idea, but shouldnt be all that complex (esp like the one in hexen demo, geez!!!). Should only *have* to switch between two or three levels on two or three occasions (otherwise it's optional). And levels should ahve some "splits" that allow you to go down differet roads, ie, dont ahve to follow a specific course of events to beat the episode (or even beat the same boss), Episodes should also flow into one-another. If they (iD software) wants to knock the player down to size at some point they can engineer the spider duodad (lose weapons and armor), or do something like they did in duke3D (captured in a prision, lost all his goodies).

Needs lots and lots of keys (and things that aren't keys as well). It was explained earlier, maybe a rusty door's computer board shorted out, gotta go to the lab and get a replacement chip because the old one has a hole melted through it (or maybe blast it witht a bfg on highest mode, but a blast door will end up killing your gun).

Maybe a weird fog has been following you since you started and if you go back a level a few times there it is waiting for you (carries massive amounts of monsters in it). Yes, new enemies should be waiting for you when you go back.

I would also like to see some bloody footprints on the ground too, possibly even blood smears from dragged bodies. I also want to see big footprints that have depressed the ground, possibly even scenes of destroyed scenery (what the hell could have smashed that thing? [::player says in worried tone::], sees 3-ft wide footprints on the ground).

Music:
im not into music that much, but it probably wont be *IN* the game like it was with doom and doom2 (but probably a music cd instead).

Doom is not a simulator, HL was very close to one. Doom would lose all of it's fun if the player experienced fatigue from running or if there was lots of emphasis on locational damage.


Visual tinting:

Bluish and black screen tinting for injury (any one of you ever been hurt and lost lots of blood pressure?).

Purplish tint for a radiation suit (which should make you slower btw).

Brighten vision and obscure it with an orange tint when invulnerable.

Reddish/orangish tint for damage from toxic waste, radioactive sludge and lava.

Items brighten screen momentarily (a white tint rather than orange one like original doom).

Vehicles:
I want there to be Miniature tanks, ie, a tank that is 6ft by 6ft and carries a 40mm gun.

I want there to be forklifts.

I want there to be small flying crafts.

and that's all i have to say for now...

[Espi]

Jayextee said:

I personally want Doom3 to be a GREAT GAME, rather than a 'what we all think post-apocalyptic combat is like' simulator...

'what we all think post-apocalyptic combat is like' simulator would be a great game! Not that fucking crap you're talkig about, I'd never buy that kind of lame game... sounds like just another damn mediocre FPS, for chrissakes we have enough of those already! Nailgn... yeah right nailguns... it was in Quake just for an excuse to write NIN in the damn ammoboxes... :)

[Espi]

sirgalahadwizar said:

Why the fuck peope want to see the damn simplicity of doom remade in to doom 3? Are some of you so braindead that anything that includes any hint of thinking further than finding keys and solving simple puzzles makes yer head hurt? :)

[sirgalahadwizar]

Because we want it to be fun to play. That doesn't mean that it can't have puzzles. But it can't be like hexen either where about half the game is thinking (I never did get to the end in the demo w/o cheating).

Too much thought required = bad game (or not a game at all)
Too little thought required = boring
In the middle = where doom 3 ought to be.

and no, thinking does not make my head hurt - im actually kinda good at doing puzzles in the first place (well, at least math an science).

Im just saying that this thing can't be a braindead shootfest. Now that i think about it, did you even READ the two posts? (because I don't know where your assumptions of simplicity came from).

[sirgalahadwizar]

sirgalahadwizar said:

Well, maybe not the monsters from quake2 mind you. They probably wouldn't fit in unless it were the radical ones like that shark they have and maybe some of those peon soldiers with gun appenadges (the blaster/machinegun/shotgun dude who doesn't drop ammo), and those guys should probably be zombified in some way.

[Espi]

sirgalahadwizar said:

Im just saying that this thing can't be a braindead shootfest.

That's what I want too.
I would like to see an inventory kinda like in roleplaying games in Doom 3, but why you don't want an inventory? Is it too much trouble to use a goddamned inventory, when you can just run around and if you happen to step on something useful well good for you you pick it up? Doesn't that kind of stuff belong to a braindead shooter?

[Gokuma]

Jayextee said:

None taken. I'm not a Doom purist, nor a Quake purist. I like good games, and I've described what I think will be a good game.

Besides, who's to say whether it would be more a quake game or not? The quakes are hardly all alike are they? To me, I described a Doom game, with a few quake-like elements, that's all.

Bah... Doom 3 should just be a bunch of purple leprechauns running around stabbing each other with sporks.

[sirgalahadwizar]

Espi said:

That's what I want too.
I would like to see an inventory kinda like in roleplaying games in Doom 3, but why you don't want an inventory? Is it too much trouble to use a goddamned inventory, when you can just run around and if you happen to step on something useful well good for you you pick it up? Doesn't that kind of stuff belong to a braindead shooter?

Well, now that I have thought about it from a different prespective - It does need an inventory.

Mind you - not everything should be storable. Invlunerability shifts the game's balance waaay to far out of whack when you are able to use them at any time.

Items like a flashbomb, some other minor weapons not important enough to make *actual* weapons could be stored here (much like how shadow warrior does it). Mines and other subterfuge devices could be auxillary and not exactly something specific enough to put on the number keys.

Health kits should be able to be stored, but one at a time and if you pick up a larger one it replaces the smaller one. And absolutly should not be used in percentages - lose 5 points of health and use the kit and you lose the rest it would normally be able to provide.

The nano-bot pack i explained earlier should be storable, but spiritual items like soulspheres, quaddamage, etc. should not (and only work on touch - the enrgy is transferred into the person who intentionally touched it). In addition, i feel that the mapeditors should intentionally place items like invulnerabiltiy and quaddamage far away from any place where they could actually be useful (like laughing at a boss or something). Should only be condidered a bonus rather than something that you actually need.

[Espi]

Umm what's the point in having these items in the game then if they're of no use? Yeah I find it hard to imagine too to carry soulspheres etc. around in a backpak I'm not suggesting that. And a quaddamage? Bah, even a lucky-shot black-magik amulet or something would be better than that :) And I think that rad-suit should work like armour. And armour shouldn't just vanish when it's percentage is gone, you would keep wearing it ('til you get a new one) it might have areas that are in good to almost shot through conditon but still giving full protection and others that have been shot through, giving no protection there.

[sirgalahadwizar]

Well, they are of use, Im just saying that it shouldn't be blatant. Many times I have found a sphere of invunerabiltiy sitting right next to a cyberdemon, is it just a coincidence, or does it just mean that cyberdemons are all that less tough?

Are the cyberdemons supposed to be tough? They sure look tough but you always seem to find big stores of weapons and artifacts around them - is it their personal stash or is it more like an attempt by the mapmakers to allow you to beat the damned thing (if the ammo and artifacts weren't there it would most likely be many times harder to beat him).

And in places wherer there wern't invunerabilty spheres, there always seemed to be a vast amount of space to put inbetween you and him (episode 2, mission 8), and sometimes both (episode 3, mission 9). Effectivly acting as invulnerabiltiy becasue he cant hit you if you are dodging his shots from such a great distance (sounds like he needs a reach weapon like a railgun or one of those defense machineguns tanks have).

Im just saying that it would probably be best to incoprorate such powerful characters like any other, dont treat them special jus' because they are big and the player is small. If the player want's to beat him then he needs to stock up on his ammunition before attacking him. The levels need to be redesigned so that the final level in each episode functions just like any other level, it just has a particularly nasty opponent in it somewhere. There should be enough ammo in the level to kill the big badguy, but it should be spread out like any other level and not in any convenient denominations either (no packs of 50 rockets sitting there together on the floor, or 50 rocket packs spread out throught level either - just the same old shotgun shells, cells, and clips as usual, maybe a rocket or two if U are lucky).

Invulnerability is an effect that counteracts *any* creature you come into contact with (until the effect wears off), and Damage-Enhancing artifacts might as well be invulnerability if you have the reaction time and ammo for it <grins>.

I agree wiht oyu about the rad suit. Perhaps put an armor vlaue against sludge in the upper right corner of the screen or something, and the suit shouldn't fully protect you either. Read on.

Armor shouldn't jsut vanish to begin with, but kinda act like it did in hexen - the armor doesnt work in percentage points like an additional health value, but instead blocks an amount of damage proportionate to it's strength (sure, if it is hit you will lose some protection from it, but it's probably tougher than the wearer). Should effect the rad suits too.

Never thought of the quaddamage being an amulet, guess it's jsut uncreative thinking on my part. That might actually be a good idea to throw in the game - an amulet with gold trim and a pitch-black opal in the center. Using the artifact will double damage from any weapon you have, the quaddamage is jsut a pureified form of it and does double of what the amulet does, but isn't as portable.

[Guest Aradiel]

Great ideas, Jayextee. A game like that would be in-f*ckin-credible. The only problem I can see is the weapons. Let's have some original weapons, instead of Quake weaponry. Jeeze, we've seen enough of those. The only 'keeper', IMHO, is the ordinary shotgun. Cause let's face it folks, the shotgun is the Doomer's main weapon.

How about these weapons:

1 - Shock Stick. Causes weak-type enemies (zombies and whatnot) to convulse in spams as their central nervous system is disrupted (do zombie's CNS's even work? hehe)

2 - Toxic trail. Not a true 'weapon', but rather, you leave behind a trail. If any enemies step into this toxin, they take damage. Useful for traps.

3 - Shoulder-mounted Weapon System. One pod on each shoulder, each housing a mini-rocket launcher and small-caliber machine gun. Depending on what type of ammo the player has, the player can shoot in random combonations of fire, creating an aspect of uncertainty, so it's different every time.

4 - The Horror. A hand-held alien device that spits out tiny beetles, which are born inside the gun. The beetles then tunnel into their opponents flesh (only usable against non-mechanical enemies) and release a deadly virus, causing a violent chain reaction, graphically showering the surrounding area with blood n' guts (yay!)

5 - Energy Broadsword. An broadsword incorporating a power generator in it's blade to generate a force field around the sword that can cut through walls, vehicles, etc.

6 - The Tunneler. A simple pnematic drill that you can drill into enemies. It has a 50% chance of being stuck in the enemy if you rip into them. Causes a massive, graphic display of carnage, and the player is covered in blood for a few seconds (in multiplayer, would appear as a bloodsoaked marine)

Cool ideas, eh? :) Now only if someone from iD were listening. Oh well. And vehicles, yeah, it definitly has to have vehicles. We only really, really need two types of vehicles, and they're both transports. We need truck-type transports, with machine guns mounted on the truck itself that the players can fire. And the second type would be high-flying aircraft the players (or enemies!) could parachute out of.

What do you guys think? Sound cool?