A bone to pick...

[Guest GBJacksonCGDC]

Okay.

I recently was told that my idea for bringing the unique features of all the Doom spurce mods into one MegaDoom mod was ridiculed in a discussion about Skull Tag.

I was told that someones said that the programmers wouldn't like having their individual work added together into a single peoject.

I have only one thing to say about this:

TOO BAD!

Doom is under GPL, which means that all projects developed using its code are to be released publicly for others to use. You get to use DOOM's code to make your own Doom version, and the terms of GPL state that you must make your work available for public use.

If someone comes along and wants to take all the unique features of the individual projects and add them together to create a completely new and well-rounded mod, then due to the spirit of the GPL, that person has every right to do so, provided that that person also releases the source code of that mod.

If you, as a coder, did not want this possibility to occur, then you should have coded your own engine from scratch, thus gaining total control over your work, releasing it or keeping it private at your own will. But you chose to use DOOM. And it is under GPL.

GPL is a two-edged sword. It gives us the freedom to use the GPLed material for anything, including professional projects to be sold. However, it also cuts us out of exclusive rights to material developed with it.

MegaDoom would not have been sold. It would have been a project to freely allow the Doom, Heretic and Hexen communities to experience a complete experience.

But it's not going to happen now. At least, I won't be involved. This community can just continue to deteriorate, for all I care. I've tried to help bring it together so that its greatest work could be done, but instead the elitist attitude and unnecessary hard feelings between mod developers that I have been observing since shortly after the source code for all three games was released has driven this community further and further apart.

When Doom3 comes out, the people who are serious about creating new material will flock to that game, and classic Doom would have died the worst possible death. It will leave no grand legacy behind. Only memories of a squabbling splintered community that refused to work together.

At that time, Doom WILL be dead. But it will not have been new gaming technology that killed it. It will have been its own community of fans that did it because they refused to BE acommunity in anything more than name.

Are there any of you out there who want to see classic Doom survive, even with Doom3 coming? If so, then join with me and help save what's left of the community. I'm not asking you to join The Chaos Crew. The Chaos Crew will be a part of what I'm inviting you to join.

Id Software released the source code, thus entrusting the fate of classic Doom to its community of fans. At first it was great. Everybody was discussing what could be improved/added to maximize the Doom experience.

But then, something happened. a unified vision broke into three pieces: Boom, DosDoom and Doom Legacy. It was fine when these were simply the representation of different directions that people wanted to take Doom, but something happened yet again that ultimately caused those and the mods to follow them to assume an isolationist policy. The exact nature of what that was is known only to those who were involved.

But I do know that there have been accusations that people are stealing other people's code and ideas...

It is to these people that I am pointing. Doom is now GPL. Whatever is developed with it becomes public domain. Your code is up for grabs. If you didn't want it used then you shouldn't have coded it and released it.

As for ideas, isn't it logical to assume that you're not the only ones thinking along the same lines? I've had ideas about things and never tell anyone about them, and then a few months later some company has pattented it, packaged it and is selling it. Tere's an old saying: great minds think alike.

Incidentally, if you post an idea to a public forum, it becomes public domain, and therefore, if someone decides to run with it and doesn't bother to credit you with it, then you have only yourself to blame for blabbing it out in the first place. Granted, it's not good ethics for someone to not give credit where credit is due, but any time you deal with the public, you run the risk of this happening.

This community needs to put its unwarrented hard feelings behind it and pull together. Or else there will be no community left.

Like I said, I will not be doing MegaDoom, unless this community gets its butt off its shoulders and becomes a community again, in practice as well as in name. Stop slamming newbies. Stop looking at each other with suspicion. Stop acting like your mod is the best.

To my mind, all mods are the best. They all do something unique. Something that would be great as an added feature to a single mod that covers everything. That is my vision.

IF I have made an unfair assumption here, or if I am wrong about where this community is heading, then this community will pull together and work together for a common goal. But if I'm right, then by the time Doom3 releases, nothing of classic Doom will remain but Chaos!


Prove me wrong! Please!


In Christ,
G. B. Jackson
Director, The Chaos Crew
http://www.doomworld.com/chaoscrew
"We give Order a purpose!"

[NiGHTMARE]

Not all Doom ports are GPL, because a lot of them were started before the source became GPL, and changing the licensing for things like source code is not retro-active.

In fact, if so someone was to get hold of the original, non-GPL Doom source code, they could still make a port that was non-GPL. It's stupid, but that's how the law works.

Also, ports like ZDoom, CSDoom and Skull Tag could do not be GPL even if they wanted to, as they contain code from other games (Heretic and Hexen) that isn't GPL.

[Guest GBJacksonCGDC]

Leaving the issue of pre or post GPL development aside, would it not benefit the community more if everyone pulled together again and worked towards a common goal?

And when even the non-GPL projects like Boom were released, and their source code with them, were the developers not indicating that they wanted to share their work?

Be that as it may. I hoped to see a collective creative project when Doom's source came out. I think Id Software hoped to see it, too. It's not too late. We can do this.

In Christ,
G. B. Jackson

[Arioch]

It was tried, and it failed miserably. End of story.

[Guest GBJacksonCGDC]

Who tried it?

When?

What was the name of the project?

Why did it fail?

To my mind, there is no failure. Only setbacks. One only fails if he refuses to try again. I know. I've been there. Not with Dom, but with something else.

Had I given up and said it can't be done, I would not currently be administrator of a worldwide internet fan community for an actress. That community has now been granted approval and I have the honor of having been granted direct communication with someone closely associated to that actress and speaking on her behalf.

I live on a dirt road in an underdeveloped area far away from California, and yet I run a worldwide officially authorized fan community for an actress who was one of the stars of Jurassic Park, one of the most incredible and profitable films of the last decade.

My endeavor succeeded because I refused to give up, even though my own family told me that it was a waste of time. That it wouldn't work because I didn't know anybody in Hollywood. I didn't listen. It took five years of patience and careful attention, but it worked.

So don't tell me something can't work, or that it'll fail. I know better. It all depends on how badly you want it. Setbacks happen all the time. learn from them and pick yourself up and go for your goal that much harder.

This community needs unity. I want to help it find it. So I say this to anyone reading. Help me help this community. We can and will succeed with the dedication that existed in this community before the source code was released and we only had the ability to make new levels and use DeHackEd to make the game behave as closely to what we envisioned. Now we have the ability and the experienced coders to revamp Doom into something beyond its original abilities, tailored for complete customizability.

We are the future of Calssic Doom. All of us.

What will it be? Will you join with me and breathe life into Doom once again, or will you remain complacent, convinced that one unsuccessful attempt at a project similar to what I have proposed indicates that it is doomed to failure, thus letting Doom pass into memory and obscurity?

Your statement, Arioch, sounded very defeatist in nature. There was a time when no true Doom developer in this community would accept the words "It cannot be done." If someone wanted to do something that Doom wasn't originally designed to do, then they found a way to make it happen or at lease fake it to the point where it made players who didn't know better think it was real... remember true bridges?

I challenge any and all of you developers in this community, from the level author to the coder, regardless of what team you're on. I challenge you to take a chance on working together. Help make a doom mod that is complete in every way, including all aspects of the mods that exist now. Once that's done, then we can carry it a little further, brainstorming together and adding features.

With this all-in-one mod, it won't matter what your design preferences are or whether or not you want to be able to jump or not. a configuration file can be developed that would allow any non-standard feature to be turned off or on at will. Or better yet, a data lump that carries preset configuration data can be added into the pwad itself, thus reconfiguring MegaDoom on the fly, with the settings in megadoom.cfg remaining untouched when standard wads are played.

What have we got to lose?

My e-mail address is jaxndoom@aol.com. Contact me if you want to help. Surely there must be some of you out there who would be interested...

In Christ,
G. B. Jackson

[Guest Dream Destroyer]

It's a god damn game for christ's sake, calm down. I can just see your face going red.
Doom will never die, I will continue to play it. As long as people continue to play it, it won't die. The community can fry in hell, but if people still play the game, the game isn't dead.
You walk in here, and expect everyone to follow you like your the next christ or something (excuse my blasphemy), but your not. Your not going to save the community, this port idea of yours won't save the community. What will happen to the community will happen. I for one am not going to stop playing the game because there is no Megaport. Personally, I like to be able to choose my port. I am a programmer. You are not. It would be near impossible to Merge all the ports. Don't talk about it unless you know what your talking about. If all the ports were merged, it would be buggy as hell. The community has a hard enough time developing ports as it is. And oh, right, yah, if all of the programmers in the community worked together. Also not going to happen. Some of the programmers are noticably better, and would drag the project down. Kick them out? Then what do they do? They make their own port. What have you done then? NOTHING.

[Guest Dream Destroyer]

GBJacksonCGDC said:

I recently was told that my idea for bringing the unique features of all the Doom spurce mods into one MegaDoom mod was ridiculed

That's because it sucks.

[Guest GBJacksonCGDC]

Dream Destroyer said:

> It's a god damn game for christ's sake, calm down. I can just> see your face going red.Nope. I am as calm as a lake on a peaceful spring day. And I am as rock-steady as a mountain.> Doom

-

[Guest GBJacksonCGDC]

Dream Destroyer said:

Nope. I am as calm as a lake on a peaceful spring day. And I am as rock-steady as a mountain.

> Doom will never die, I will continue to play it. As long as
>people continue to play it, it won't die. The community can fry
>in hell, but if people still play the game, the game isn't dead.

If the community dies, then there will be nothing new for you to play.

> You walk in here, and expect everyone to follow you like
>your the next christ or something (excuse my blasphemy), but
>your not.

Never thought I was. and it's not me who can excuse blasphemy, but rather the one whom you plaspheme

> Your not going to save the community, this port idea of yours >won't save the community.

Can you deny that it would make it stronger?

> What will happen to the community will happen. I for one am
>not going to stop playing the game because there is no
>Megaport.

Good... if you like only playing the game, that's fine. But others like to create things. Who was the last person who got an article posted on DoomWorld for just playing the game?

> Personally, I like to be able to choose my port. I am a
>programmer. You are not. It would be near impossible to Merge
>all the ports. Don't talk about it unless you know what your
>talking about. If all the ports were merged, it would be buggy
>as hell. The community has a hard enough time developing ports
>as it is.

>And oh, right, yah, if all of the programmers in the community
>worked together. Also not going to happen. Some of the
>programmers are noticably better, and would drag the project
>down. Kick them out? Then what do they do? They make their own
>port. What have you done then? NOTHING.

Nobody would be kicked out. Those coders who willingly work together could learn from each other and improve their skills. The way it would go would be that all existing features in existing mods would be added into MegaDoom. Then when it comes time to add new functionality, the team will discuss the next feature to add, and then it is put up for grabs for the coders. If more than one coder wants to take a crack at it, then a special mailing list will be created allowing those coders to collaborate on the issue. If they do not want to collaborate, then they may develop their own version of the concept and compile it into the test build. Three coders for the same feature would mean three test builds. When all three are in, everyone on the team will playtest them and choose the one he/she feels fits the game the smoothest. Minimum 2/3 majority rules.

No decision will be arbitrarily made.

Is it clear yet? I'm not just posting randome thoughts here and romping around like an elephant with a fly up its trunk. I have a plan. one that I feel can and will work. It just needs people who are willing to help.

It's okay, Dream Destroyer. You don't have to be part of it. Just don't deny that you'll play it if it happens out of simple curiosity just to see if there's something you can ridicule.

Incidentally. Never tell someone that his/her idea sucks. Let it be developed then make your judgments. It's attitudes like that that make some people not even want to bother trying.

In Christ,
G. B. Jackson

[Espi]

GBJacksonCGDC said:

I would help if I could, but I can't. I don't know programming and stuff, but the idea is good, to make a doom port that has the best features of them all, but it seems that's never going to happen. I'll just have to have a dozen ports which each do something that others don't and if they do it's done different ways and this sucks.

[Jayextee]

If I could actually be any use at all, I would support this movement, but alas - I'm a lowly level editor. And these are ten-a-penny.

Doom 'Community'? Such an ambiguous statement makes me laugh.

[Guest GBJacksonCGDC]

Espi said:

I would help if I could, but I can't. I don't know programming and stuff, but the idea is good, to make a doom port that has the best features of them all, but it seems that's never going to happen. I'll just have to have a dozen ports which each do something that others don't and if they do it's done different ways and this sucks.

Never let yourselves think that you are unworthy of any endeavor simpley because of what you believe to be limited skill.

If level design is all you can do, then that's fine with me. For what good are source ports without a fresh infusion of levels to play them with?

And if you're new to editing, that's fine, too. Everyone here who is a level author was new at some point, but some have been doing it so long that they forget that time when they first loaded up DEU or some other early generation old-school editor and couldn't get DOORS to even work right :)

I myself am no level designer. I never had the time to design levels. I've spent years thinking about and documenting more game concepts than I'll ever have time to do anything with. But that doesn't mean that I don't know how levels are edited. I bought three doom editing/hacking books and read them all cover-to-cover three times. I understood how everything went together. I even began preliminary development of two TCs: One was to be called "Star Wars: Doom of the Empire" and the other one was "Jurassic Park: Doom on Isla Nublar".

For the JP one, I even did a little DeHackEd experiment, replacing the blue key with a sprite of actress Ariana Richards as Lex from the movie. I made it so the key did not flash. The idea was to have a level where you, as Doctor Grant, have to rescue Lex and Tim before you can leave the level, avoiding Dilophosauruses and Velociraptors every step of the way. I was amazed at seeing Lex standing there in a corner. I even thought to add a sound thing to the area that woudl trip off a sample of dialogue from the movie:

LEX: "He left us... He Left us!!!
GRANT "But that's NOT what I'm gonna do!"

I cut the project on both TCs short due to lack of time, and lack of propper equipment to generate sprites for the dinos. and the toy JP dinosaur proved to be a real pain to pose.

I could probably do the sprites now, but time is still a major issue. I mostly only have time for ideas. Besides, Star Wars and Jurassic Park are heavily copyrighted materials, and I decided that it was probably legally better that I didn't pick up the projects.

I had it all figured out how to make the projects work under Doom's limitations back then. Had the ideas come after the code release, just imagine what could have been done with the them... We're limited only to our imagination, now.

So anyway, guys. Don't think that just because you lack a certain skill that I wouldn't want you as a member of the MegaDoom dev team. I'm talking about rebuilding the Doom community, and as such, we'll need every developer we can get, regardless of his or her skill level. Newbies' low quality levels can get better over time as they learn new techniques.

MEgaDoom, as a proposed community project will not exclude anyone who is willing to contribute.

Think about it. What have you got to lose?


In Christ,
G. B. Jackson

[Guest Dream Destroyer]

GBJacksonCGDC said:

Okay, here is what I'm saying. I personally don't think it will work.
However, if you can find the support, and actually do end up making it. I will play it with an open mind. I'm not here to mock you for your attempts. I just have a really harsh way of speaking my opinion. heh. Oh well. :)
Still think it's a bad idea, but good luck anyway.

[Jayextee]

GBJacksonCGDC said:

Maybe I _can_ help. I'm always thinking of new, original ideas for things like fun game modes, and features, but mainly I keep them to myself - one post I recently made about a proposed new DM mode was ridiculed by people who didn't read or understand the post.

But the problem here, is that it's very easy to give orders and watch people do as you say.

Hmmm.... nonetheless, I could mail you with most of the ideas I've had up to yet, if you're interested.

[Jon]

Ok, you couldn't merge zdoom with any other port without breaking GPL licensing because it contains portions of heretic/hexen code which ISN'T licenced under the GPL, and was based on the pre GPL doom source code and cant' be converted without a great deal of work.

So there.

[Guest GBJacksonCGDC]

Jayextee said:

Maybe I _can_ help. I'm always thinking of new, original ideas for things like fun game modes, and features, but mainly I keep them to myself - one post I recently made about a proposed new DM mode was ridiculed by people who didn't read or understand the post.

But the problem here, is that it's very easy to give orders and watch people do as you say.

Hmmm.... nonetheless, I could mail you with most of the ideas I've had up to yet, if you're interested.

By all means, send them. After the game's functionality issues are resolved, we'll be ready to add new material.

And incidentally, if a codebase is not GPL, then I will ask the coder who put it together if he will allow us to use his code in our work.

If he says no, then one of our coders will just have to take a crack at the feature himself. But why would a doom coder with a non-GPL codebase release his code if he didn't want to share it?

What is the difference in wanting to base a project off of MBF, ZDoom or Legacy and wanting to base a project off of features that exist within all of them?

Since I have no intention of selling this project, use of the Heretic and Hexen source code for those games' unique features should be okay. Nobody's faulting Randy Heit for using them in ZDoom.

If it's credit the coders want, then I don't have a problem with that. I plan to document every code resource that goes into this project. Originating source ports of all the features will be credited to their coders, within the MegaDoom source code and in the credits file that will accompany the mod.

And on the issue of more than one mod having a similar feature done differently, why not implement both methods but let them be chosen by the wad developer at edit time? That way, everybody's mod gets included.

We're talking about already existing mods, not new features to be added AFTER MegaDoom is released. Those would be based on the "Here's the idea, it's up for grabs" method I outlined above. Multiple coders working independently on the feature will have their method voted on by the rest of the MegaDoom team. The one that takes the vote will be the one that goes in the public build. Of course, this could lead to hard feelings, which is why I would encourage multiple coders who want to tackle the feature to work together. That way, they all have input.

Any thoughts on this?

[Shaviro]

Humans are of a self-destructing race. So is this community!

[Shaviro]

Jayextee said:

Doom 'Community'? Such an ambiguous statement makes me laugh.

uhh?

[Jayextee]

Well, there isn't really much of a 'community' spirit, is there?

Coders are selfish, sound/art guys think they're the elite, and level designers, who are ten a penny, all think they're god.

[Linguica]

Remember OGRE?

Originally, OGRE was going to be the "next generation" of Doom source port, a "megaport" if you will, that would combine the resources of Boom, DOSDoom, WinDoom, XDoom, and LxDoom (I think) into one big executable with everything anyone would ever want. In fact, I asked TeamTNT leader about this back in 1998:

***

What was once going to be "Boom phase 2" is now planned to be a source merger between many of the main ports like DOSDoom and glDoom. Has work began in earnest on this merger? Has the team drawn up definite plans for what features this merger will include? Can you name any?

glDoom isn't part of it, though Bruce Lewis' WinDoom is. We're not really moving forward at the moment, though various discussions have been held. Both teams (TeamTNT and DOSDoom) wanted to release their "final" versions before diverting energy to the next engine. We've done ours now, so we're just waiting for them. With ours out of the way, we'll probably be more participative in discussions. I'll be working on the group infrastructure over the next month or so and will try to get a web site going.
Like a lot of things in this hobbyist environment, the activity comes in waves. We just released our final version of Boom, and the DOSDoom team isn't quite ready with theirs yet. We fully understand that they need to concentrate on their current work, and so we're not putting any pressure on anyone to move quickly. We'll be doing a complete design from the ground up, and we need the full attention of all members for that. In addition to TeamTNT folks (which includes Bruce Lewis and Florian Schulze) and the DOSDoom team, Udo Munk and Colin Phipps just joined the merger team as well, giving us a good cross-platform representation. It'll be fun.

***

It failed miserably. There was lots of talk but never any real action. TeamTNT ended up giving its blessing to ZDoom as the "next incarnation" of Boom, even though ZDoom was created by (surprise) one guy working alone with no collaboration or input other than from user suggestions.

[Guest GBJacksonCGDC]

Guess what... I was on the OGRE development mailing list. All they did was discuss going back to the very roots of game development. They wanted to reinvent the wheel. They wanted to do their own engine from scratch. DOOM didn't even seem to be a part of any of their plans.

The went too far and not far enough at the same time.

MegaDoom will not be like that. It will be Doom using all the readily available material that is available to be used. We will not reinvent the wheel. We will modify the car :)

Come on, guys... Give MegaDoom a chance. Help make it happen.

All I need is a coder with the a win9X compiler to start it off. I remember the enthusiasm that this community had when Ogre was announced. I can't help it if they pussy-footed around and din't bother to deliver on what everyone was expecting. I have a solid goal in mind, and that goal is Doom.

Aren't any of you the slightest bit curious as to what can be achieved with this proposed project? If you are, then don't listen to these nay-sayers. Help make this thing a reality.

Jeez.. you would think I asked you all to throw yourselves on a sword. All I'm asking for is some help. And the quicker that someone comes forward to help, the quicker the community will have phase one of MegaDoom.

That's all I'm going to say, today on this issue. I'm going to try to get rid of a headache


In Christ,
G. B. Jackson

[Guest Fanatic]

I don't think the point is that programmers don't want their work merged with other ports.

No one wants to do it.

Everyone enjoys programming the way they do, and the GPL has always been in place, as is the opportunity to merge them all and make a super port.

But no one wants to do it.

[AdamW]

GBJacksonCGDC said:

Never. Ever. Not a chance in hell.

I've worked on two megawads, so don't call me for lack of experience. Requiem took two solid years to get together, even though everyone could work virtually independently of everyone else, simply through people dropping out of sight for six months. Some kind of super-uber-mega-programming project is never, ever going to come off, since coders *can't* work entirely independently of each other. This means everyone is going to virtually have to keep in touch with each other 24/7. It's simply not an efficient method. I mean, look how games are programmed - how many coders worked on Quake? Two, maybe three, and that was a revolutionary new engine, not just a frickin' Doom mod, and the programmers were actually physically in the same place working under deadlines. Trying to put 30 independent egotistical Doom coders to work on the same project and co-ordinating them through a mailing list just will NOT work. Believe it.

Apart from that, I don't think it's a particularly good idea anyway. Having things the way they are encourages new ideas and individuality, while a certain amount of convergence is natural over time - ZDoom now incorporates features that used to be unique to, say, Boom, MBF or Doom Legacy, and then there's recursive ports - things like csDoom and Skulltag which base themselves off ZDoom in the first place. Trying to stop this kind of independent development and shove all the coders into a giant monolith to make one project won't save Doom development, it'll kill it stone dead.

[Afterglow]

Fine, don't do MegaDoom. See if anyone gives a rats' ass.

[Guest GBJacksonCGDC]

Frankly, I don't care whether they do or not. I'm tired of trying to whip a dead horse into motion. I have abdicated the directorship of The Chaos Crew to Chris Lutz. I will fulfill my obligations to the completion of Caverns of Darkness, and then I will be out of this community for good.

I offered a major contribution to this community with the concept of MegaDoom. It would have made it easier on everybody, players and developers alike, by making everything accessable through one mod. It's not gooing to happen. I'm sorry

Doom is dead to me, now.

At least the spirit of what once made it great is.

There is no community of shared ideas. There is no grand future for Doom.

Good luck to any newcomer here hoping to get support for an idea...

Farewell, all.

The Love of Christ Jesus and the blessings of God the Father be with each and every one of you all the days of your lives.


In Christ,
Gregory B. Jackson
Developer, The Chaos Crew
http://www.doomworld.com/chaoscrew
"We give Order a purpose!"

[Ralphis]

Jayextee said:

Well, there isn't really much of a 'community' spirit, is there?

Coders are selfish, sound/art guys think they're the elite, and level designers, who are ten a penny, all think they're god.

I design maps and i dont think im god. I do consider myself a fairly good map maker but nowhere in the detail fields.

[Afterglow]

GBJacksonCGDC said:

Good; at least Chris Lutz knows what's going on. Now go pray to your God, you will be saved. blah blah blah.