Columbine Victims Familys File Suit...

[Guest DIRE]

...Against the Gaming Industry.

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1002,11%257E24990,00.html

I urge everyone here to read that artical as it could effect the games we play.

I am so sick of this everyone blaming Movies,Music and Video Games for all of societys flaws. Did the thought ever enter their mind the reason those 2 kids shot up there school we because they hated their school that much. Maybe because the school system wasnt doing its job. I have done lots of reasearch into the columbine situation. and i found multiple examples of the school system not doing its job here is 1 such example...

Eric Harris (1 of the gunman from columbine) we shoved up against a locker and threatened by a bullie (star sports player for the school) and when he informed a teacher of the event, the teacher replied "Just deal with it"

Now i ask, is that anyway to deal with that type of situation. could it be Eric hated that kid, and the teacher who failed to correct the situation that much? I am by no means trying to defend Eric and Dylans actions. But Angry Parents and Politicians want to point fingers at everyone else, its so easy to blame videogames,music and movies. But the underlying truth is much more painfull, I urge all parents to take a look in the mirror. and as a side note, Japan has much more violence in its media (as well as nudity) and they have less then %10 of the crime we do. so the link between violence and media is nullifyed.


sorry to go off for 10mins like that, but this whole blaming the software industry thing just really pisses me off.

[Guest Liam the Bard]

Amen, brother, amen.

What parents and teachers don't realize (or at least don't want to believe) is that it is THEIR FAULT.

If the teachers would-like you said-remedy situations like bullying and other issues, than kids would feel safer and more comfortable in school.

Also, parents need to be aware of the mental state of their children. I mean, look. Who knows how many kids/teens are playing games like doom, quake or whatever and then look at how many are seriously influenced! Those kids were likely not feeling well mentally and if the parents noticed this, then they could take these games from their children and help their psychological problem. The many, many kids/teens that handle these things as "just games" don't deserve them taken away.

The columbine victims parents are just looking for a scapegoat, and I hope that they lose in court, if it goes there.

[Rubilacxe]

I just read the article, and I am pissed! They have no right to revoke us from the games we play. Some of us, acutally many of us, can play those games and we are smart enough to realize that your not supposed to go off killing people in real life!

And why do they blame Doom? Doom's not nearly as violent as Half-Life, or Soldier of Fortune! God, I hate people like this.

The reason they're blaming Doom is because everybody knows what it is. So when some parent watching 20/20 hears "They should blame Doom" he/she will think "Oh yeah Doom. I know what that is. Thats GOTTA be it"

You really should tell people what you've found out, Dire. I mean a lot of people.

[Megalyth]

From the article:

"And on Friday, the family of injured student Evan Todd had their lawyer fire off a letter to the co-creator of the game "Doom" - a favorite of Harris and Klebold - asking that he stop selling adult games to kids."

WTF? Stop selling adult games to kids? Stop letting your kids buy violent games! Jesus...

Also from the article:

"The suit asks for $5 billion in damages, plus damages of $5,000 to $10 million for individual parties in the class action.
'But money may be the smallest part of the goal,' said John DeCamp, the Sanders' Nebraska-based attorney. 'This is a class action that says that, ultimately, money ain't gonna do it.'"

Bullshit.

"He called on Carmack to prohibit the sale and distribution of all video games rated for mature audiences to children under 17 -and to do it by April 30."

How does Carmack or any game designer/company have any control over who gets their games? I bought Doom II from Walmart when I was 15. The box has a clearly stated RSAC advisory on the front. To quote the box, "Mature. Animated blood and gore. Animated violence." The guy never asked me if I was old enough to play such games, and rung me up without a second thought. How is that John Carmack's fault? And, just like movies require ratings, games require ESRB ratings, which clearly state what audience they are appropriate for.

I work at a software store, and when I help someone find a game, just for the sake of courtesy, I ask what kinds of games they let their kids play (in the case of a parent buying a gift). You'd be surprised that most parents don't care what games their children play.

The one that sticks in my mind most was around mid-December of 2000, right before Christmas. A woman asked if I would suggest a good action game. I asked what age group she was buying for. "An 8 year old and a 10 year old", she responded. I asked if she didn't mind violent games. "I don't really give a shit what they play" were her EXACT words.

Article excerpt:

"We need to wake up," Todd said. "These kids don't need to be playing violent games. But corporations don't have social consciences. You have to force them through economics."

And this from a victim's father! Maybe if you tried some actual PARENTING, your kids WON'T play violent games, and that's just simple truth.

[Zeratul 982]

A couple of days ago I heard something on 60 minutes that they compared the shotgun used in Columbine to the super shotgun used in Doom 2. I mean just about ANY sawed-off shotgun would look similar to it, but still all their fingers point at Doom.

[deadnail]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2001-04-23

Even Penny-Arcade is on this one.

The answer? People are stupid. No one wants to accept the responsiblity. No one wants to admit that they are a shitty parent. Those kids had no morality, no honesty, no concept of social existance, no God and no hope for the future.

To them, shooting a bunch of people and then themselves was as meaningless and empty as drinking a Coke or kicking the dog.

"Hey dad, I'm having some problems at school..."

When was the last time those kids asked that huh? When they were 8 when their parents brushed them off to watch Jeopardy uninterrupted?

Of COURSE the parents are to blame, they are fucking accessories after the fact. The kids had pipebombs sitting IN OPEN VIEW in their bedroom. The kids had access to dangerous firearms. Both of these are Felonies. Why aren't their parents IN TRIAL RIGHT NOW?

When I got shoved around unending in the Ghetto school I snapped too. I grabbed the black kid that kept tormenting me (oh no, I'm white -- I'm the root of all of his trouble) punched him in the face, kicked him in the ribs... when he was bent down I kneed him in the skull and punched his kidneys right before I threw him down that fucking staircase. The next day he flashed a knife at me. That weekend I moved.

Why? My parents listen to me. "All the black kids are TRYING TO KILL ME because I'm white!" They could plainly see in the paper that six people were shot in that school in the first 2 weeks.

So a kid is getting the shit beat out of him everyday by a football player twice his physique. The teachers didn't care. He didn't talk to his parents about it because why? If they had NEVER cared about him up to that point why would they now? I doubt they even CONSIDERED their parents a:
1) Help to their problems.
2) Threat to their plan to assault their school.


Television is not a parent.
Playstation is not a baby sitter.
Internet is not a tutor.

Only the parents (or guardians) have that role, not even the schools take on those tasks.

I couldn't watch Tom & Jerry when I was a kid, my mom thought I might wing a brick at the cat the way the mouse did. Now we have 12 year olds with easy access to high powered rifles listening to Marilyn Manson and playing video games like Mortal Kombat 4?


I will say this, that it's EASY to scapegoat entertainment and blame all of YOUR SHITTY PARENTING ABILITIES on someone else.

However, young minds do absorb what they see. I'd say, though, that at age 14 that cuts right off and R rated movies and M rated games don't have any lasting deep rooted impressions.

6 year old kids, after watching Power Rangers, began ninja kicking around the room (I saw that on Dateline). 14 year olds who watched The Matrix didn't feel compelled to wear trenchcoats and carry 500 guns.

It took **A LOT** more than Doom to turn these kids into killers. It took YEARS of neglect and abuse to mold their minds into something else.

Not to sound like a dick but I'm curious... you would think someone had firebombed their parents house by now. There's been life-threatening vandalism in this country with LESS motivation, that's for sure.

[skadoomer]

This really makes no sense at all. Remeber a few years back when post men went on shooting rampages? Then the game postal was released and i havn't heard news of a postal shooting since. Its a proven fact that videogames don't encourage (and in some cases, drive down) violent behavior. Adults seem to think that kids have a bad case of "monkey see monkey do", when its really the parents that model the kids behavior and teach them by examples. If anyone should be blamed, its the parents of the kids that shoot up schools.

[Megalyth]

deadnail said:

Well said.

[Grul]

No one can really say that a video game is entirely responsible for a violence action, but it might trigger a dormant psycical disease in the subject. This gives rise to arguments like "this wouldn't have happened if the video games weren't there", even though the video games aren't the actual problem. In other words, you might as well spend the money to prevent and detect psycical deseases at young age. No normal human thinks that it is ok to grab a shotgun and do some fragging in real life just because he has played doom; a severe psycical disturbance that silences the natural urge to not kill other humans unless necessary must also be present.

[Disorder]

When a snake is trapped in a corner long enough, the possibility exists that eventually he's gonna take a bite at you. I think it's the same with people > If you bullie (don't know if I write this right) a person long enough the possibility exists that after a while he or she is gonna snap. Nasty things could happen...

So why blame Carmack ?? It's not his fault these kids where bullied..

[fodders]

deadnail said:

Only the parents (or guardians) have that role, not even the schools take on those tasks.

Not sure of the law in USA but in England teachers and the school are given the authority "loco parentis" which means that while children are under the supervision of the school, the school has in fact the duties of care that a parent has.
For real BS fear mongering go visit http://www.capalert.com

[elbryan42]

Will those idiots shut up already? I know that it's instinct to place the blame somewhere, but they're creating more hate than two kids bringing guns to school and shooting a few people ever could. Will this circus end already?

By the way, figure this one out. The kids listened to KMFDM. So of course, the parents are blaming that too. The thing is, most of the songs are anti-violence. Am I sure glad they never had Smurfs on the web site. Because Smurfs are evil.

[Zaldron]

fodders said:

Not sure of the law in USA but in England teachers and the school are given the authority "loco parentis" which means that while children are under the supervision of the school, the school has in fact the duties of care that a parent has.
For real BS fear mongering go visit http://www.capalert.com

Heheheh, that means "Crazy Parents" :D

It´s latin, but it´s pretty much the same words in spanish (after all, spanish is a product of latin).

[nightmare imp]

god damn idiots,they can got to hell with there kids for bugging the shooters.

they deserved it anyways...

people nowadays.

[esco]

YO WTF KIND OF SHIT IS DAT!!!!!???? If parents don't want their kids exposed to dat kind of shit, they should pay more attention to them, and actually try being parents!!

I grew up in fucking brooklyn, NEW YORK, one of da most violent places in da US, and I sure as fuck would never dream of going on a shooting spree when I was a child or now! Why? Because I ain't nuts, and if I had done something like dat, my parents would seriously have BEAT MY ASS!!! They kept a close eye on me, and so did all of da other parents around in my hood! We all tried to look out for one another!

Up north I noticed dat all of da families stuck closer together than they do in florida! Why? Because they knew dat their was a high chance of their kid gettin' shot, or stabbed, or something else really bad happening! In most parts of florida, people actually feel safe enough to leave their doors unlocked when they are home, so they think their kids will be okay. Every time I go out, I see a bunch of 13-16 year olds trying to be "genuine thugs!" Goin around talkin' about smokin' weed, drinkin' 40's, and fuckin' mad hoes! Why are these kids doing this... simple:

BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS AIN'T PAYING FUCKING ATTENTION TO WHAT GOES ON WIT THEIR KIDS!!!

I never saw shit dis bad in NY! Most of the shit dat happens there, happens wit peeps who is 16 and up, not no GODDAMN MIDDLE SCHOOLERS! Then when some shit goes down, they try to blame rap music, or gangsta movies, or TV, or in dis case, video games! Dat's BULLSHIT!!!

A ghetto movie like menace to society gets all kinds of hell from critics because it "encourages violence", and yet a movie like the godfather is considered OK! What da fuck is da difference, they both got mad killings and violence in them! Except one is centered around real life in da ghetto, and one is centered around real life in da mafia!! Big fucking difference there (Yeah right!)

Now, these fucks want to blame da gaming industry for da fact dat their kids decided to go postal, instead of looking at da fact dat maybe they should have paid a little more attention to them! WTF WERE THESE KIDS DOING WIT EXPLOSIVES AND FIREARMS! If mah mom, even saw me fuckin' around wit firecrackers back in da day, she would have beat my ass SERIOUSLY!!! WHY? cuz I could get hurt, or hurt someone else, and mama wasn't having dat!

I know for a fact dat everybody get's fucked wit at least once while they is growing up and in school! It's usually da smaller peeps, who are different from everyone else who get fucked wit da most. Some peeps is even too ashamed to tell they parents about it, because they don't wanna look like pussies! But, it shouldn't be dat way. Kids should be able to tell their parents when they have a problem, and feel secure about it. If they don't, then guess what... they parents is sure as fuck doing something wrong! And if their parents can't do anything, they should be able to tell da teachers!

Personally, when I was in middle school I gots fucked wit by some peeps in dat school! But then again, so did even da baddest mothafuckas in there! I'll tell you what I did... I picked up a fuckin' desk, or whateva da fuck I could get my hands on, and preceded to smack da shit out of them bullies! But, there are some times when you is better off walkin' away (much as I hate dat shit, but dat's my problem!) then throwing up fists! Such as when you are outnumbered, or when they is packing heat! Dat's called using yo head, not bein' a pussy!

These kids need to learn dat they ain't always gots ta be hardasses to come out on top. Them two guys dat shot up dat school was probably trying to show them peeps dat they wasn't gonna be pushed around any more, but they chose da wrong way to do it! Simply finding da mothafuckas who fucked wit them and beating them wit a bat around they neighborhood would have been more than enough payback! Rather than killing them and a bunch of other students who hadn't done shit at all to them! Now dat shit just ain't right!

I could sit here all day, and what I have written here don't nearly sum up how fucked up I think dis whole situation is! This little post doesn't even nearly come close, because I can't actually put what I want to say into words here, without coming off da wrong way. I hope ya'll feels what I mean. And dat's mah word.

[fodders]

Zaldron said:

Heheheh, that means "Crazy Parents" :DIt´s latin, but it´s pretty much the same words in spanish (after all, spanish is a product of latin).

Extract from the English 1990 Childrens Act of Parliament:
Most important of these is how far a school takes on a legal responsibility for children - in Loco Parentis. It is legislation concerning child protection ..............snip

prep. (in loh-coh pah-rent-iss) Latin for "instead of a parent" or "in place of a parent," this phrase identifies a foster parent, a county custodial agency or a school which is taking care of a minor, including protecting his/her rights.

[fodders]

esco said:

I know for a fact dat everybody get's fucked wit at least once while they is growing up and in school! It's usually da smaller peeps, who are different from everyone else who get fucked wit da most

One thing I learned growing up and, being in the Royal Navy, bar fights from Portsmouth England, to getting my ribs broke in a bar in Puerto Rico, is don't pick on the smaller guys unless you have to, the big ones are easy to whoop, hardly had a fight all way through school, it's the little 'uns you got to watch out for! All way through school and in later life they have had to protect themselves, they learned how to fight :) They HAD NO CHOICE

[Guest fraggle`]

Grul said:

it might trigger a dormant psycical disease in the subject.

is this your official prognosis, doctor?

[Ralphis]

nightmare imp said:

god damn idiots,they can got to hell with there kids for bugging the shooters.

they deserved it anyways...

people nowadays.

Noone deserved it.

[Guest Cacodemon Leade]

Megalyth said:

To allow them to continue distributing their M rated software they may need people's profiles to make sure that they are of legal age to play those games. That should make things better for id to stay alive.

[Speshul Eddy]

Geez, I'm starting to get really sick of hearing this shit, and the fact that there are other shootings happening pretty much on a monthly basis doesn't help either.

Now when I was in high school, I was one of those quiet kids who nobody really knew. Now I'm not gonna dump my boring-ass life story here, but I'd like to point out a little something that I've noticed while reading the all too common articles about kids shooting up their schools. In every one, somebody describes the shooter as being "well liked", and possibly "friendly".
Now obviously, the kids in the Columbine incident are an exception to this rule, but in any case, when I look back, I remember teachers commenting on how much they liked having me around, which is strange, because I never really felt that anyone enjoyed my company.

What I'm getting at is that the adult perception of many of these individuals may have been positive, but it may not have been very accurate; and even if a person is reasonably well liked by his/her peers, if nobody reaches out to this person, he/she may be of the impression that people just don't give a crap about them. This is exactly what happened to me in high school, although thankfully, I'm keenly aware of the fact that shooting my classmates with a high-powered assault rifle, in addition to being illegal in most states, is not a very good way to make friends.

As far as the Columbine thing goes, I was really pissed that someone could make such a poor example for the outcasts of America, and I was especially pissed that they had to forcefully drag the game industry into it with that stupid video where they made the Doom reference.

I hope that when those little shits get to hell, they get stuck in a room full of Imps and Demons who will tear them to shreds, and just to make things interesting, they should be forced to respawn every time.

"It'll be just like Doom.." (ya got that right, bucko) >=)


I'm also a bit annoyed at the ability people have to completely ignore any and all evidence that games don't cause violence whenever it suits them.

Facts that should be completely obvious seem to be forgotten on a daily basis; for example, I saw an article in the paper that left me scratching my head. The headline read "Solid Evidence That Greenhouse Gases Cause Global Warming". Now if people actually have to be reminded of that, then you know something is seriously wrong with our society.

I suppose the assumption that people ought to know right from wrong, and fantasy from reality, is something akin to the assumption that if a freaky guy who just escaped from his rubber room and is all hopped up on God knows what, barges into your house with a chainsaw, trips over your dog and falls on said chainsaw, royally messing himself up, he shouldn't be able to sue you........well that just shows what we know about REAL justice.

Games, besides being nothing at all like real Kombat..err, I mean Combat, do not make kids hate each others guts, and anyone who can't get that through his skull is swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool, if ya know what I mean.


Oh my, it seems my Super Bar has run dry.
Guess I'll have to go throw a few fireballs at my punching bag before I can post again.......huh?, what do you MEAN that's not real =P

[Lüt]

All I can say is they asked for it. The day the news showed the world what happened it was never gonna stop, and it hasn't. The best thing to do is never cover any of this in the news again. But until then, no pity for the rest that die in those shootings. In fact, now I'm anxious to see the numbers rise; not exactly good for everybody, but it's the only way it'll stop. It has to get really bad before it gets good. Might as well just get it out of the way.

[Grul]

fraggle` said:

is this your official prognosis, doctor?

Heh.

When you're at it, you might as well sound professional :)

[Davidoom]

Megalyth said:

It is our job as parents to know what is going on in our kids lives. It is our job as parents to take whatever corrective and/or disciplinary action necessary to insure that our kids act in a respon

This is true.