10 SECTORS - AN ILLEGAL ENTRY FOUND

[sparky]

I was pretty disgusted when I first saw that 6 maps in the Top32 Megawad only got one Top32 vote from the judges (one map actually got NO votes), while the following maps got two votes and missed out:

01/02 10sector-fraggle.wad -- Simon Howard
01/07 brute10.wad -- Paul Corfiatis
02/01 10s_vrgl.wad -- Vick Bobkov
02/08 def monsters.wad -- Slayer
02/16 kodo10.wad -- Paul Corfiatis
03/02 1dayhell.wad -- Sascha \" The Prophet\" Müller
05/17 stphrz.wad -- Stephen Robinson

The authors of these 7 maps were robbed of their "15 minutes of fame" !!!

These authors can feel especially cheated now that I've just found a further flaw in the judging:

MAP10 'TENSION' BY CYB (cyb@frad.org) CONTAINS 11 SECTORS !!!

How could the author and judges not have picked this error up when it was the whole point of the contest?

Once again, Doomworld and the 10Sector judges owe the above-mentioned authors an explanation about why their maps were pushed out of the Top32 Megawad by inferior maps (MAP31 - zero votes) and illegal maps (MAP10 - 11 sectors).

[ReX]

Sparky, I checked Map10 using WadAuthor (i.e., View, Statistics) and it said that the map had 10 sectors. How did you figure 11?

[X-DOOM]

Sparky

I have check it that too and i found 11 sectors too.

I have put a article at http://www.doom-expert.com
that concerning this post !

I hope to have some answer for that.

[stphrz]

Indeed. Map 10 does only contain 10 sectors. No problems there. As to the other stuff, well, no biggie I say. Ling did say in the text that something like 27 or so maps were chosen by the judging results. The other five were levels that he liked. If you factor in Ling as another judge(which in fact he was imo) there's no real reason to think anything's amiss. I think the top maps(the ones that actually won prizes) were fairly picked.
I've personally played through all but a few of the levels in the first megawad and have few complaints about the levels chosen.

[sparky]

ReX said:

Sparky, I checked Map10 using WadAuthor (i.e., View, Statistics) and it said that the map had 10 sectors. How did you figure 11?

Here's the output from WadWhat:


WADWHAT 2.3 by Gregory P. Kwok (gkwok@jps.net)
Based on WADWHAT 1.1 by Randall R. Spangler (rspangle@micro.caltech.edu)
===============================================================================
PWAD FILE 10sector.wad:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MAP 10 Difficulty: S1 S2 S3 S45 | M1 M2 M3 M45
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Play modes:
Single player
Cooperative (4 player)
Deathmatch (1 starts)
Bosses:
Baron 1 1 3 3 | 1 1 3 3
Cyberdemon 1 1 1 1 | 1 1 1 1
Monsters:
Trooper 4 4 5 5 | 4 4 5 5
Sergeant 5 5 5 5 | 5 5 5 5
Chaingun guy 0 0 0 2 | 0 0 0 2
Imp 4 4 8 9 | 4 4 8 9
Demon 5 5 4 4 | 5 5 4 4
Lost soul 10 10 10 10 | 10 10 10 10
Cacodemon 5 5 7 7 | 5 5 7 7
Revenant 1 1 2 2 | 1 1 2 2
Mancubis 3 3 3 3 | 3 3 3 3
Mini Baron 2 2 3 4 | 2 2 3 4
Pain Elemental 1 1 2 2 | 1 1 2 2
Weapons:
Shotgun 1 1 1 1 | 1 1 1 1
Super shotgun 1 1 1 1 | 1 1 1 1
Chaingun 1 1 1 1 | 1 1 1 1
Rocket launcher 1 1 1 1 | 1 1 1 1
BFG-9000 1 1 1 1 | 1 1 1 1
Equipment:
Backpack 1 1 1 1 | 1 1 1 1
Berserk 1 1 1 1 | 1 1 1 1
Expendibles:
Bullets 700 350 355 355 | 700 350 355 355
Shells 384 192 192 192 | 384 192 192 192
Rockets 20 10 10 10 | 20 10 10 10
Cells 200 100 100 100 | 200 100 100 100
Armor points 1000 500 500 500 | 1000 500 500 500
Health points 1010 505 505 505 | 1010 505 505 505
Difficulty:
Total monster hp 1212 1212 1623 1693 | 1212 1212 1623 1693
Max ammo damage 4188 2094 2099 2099 | 4188 2094 2099 2099
RATIO 0.289 0.579 0.773 0.807 | 0.289 0.579 0.773 0.807
Other info:
Average brightness 138 (0=dark, 255=bright)
Secrets 0
Nukeage / sectors 0 / 11
Triggers / linedefs 37 / 1551
Reject resource YES

[sparky]

ReX said:

Sparky, I checked Map10 using WadAuthor (i.e., View, Statistics) and it said that the map had 10 sectors. How did you figure 11?

WinDEU32 v5.99b1 shows the following stats for MAP10:

things 176
vertices 1408
linedefs 1551
sidedefs 2388
sectors 11

==============================

WinTex also shows 11 sectors (numbered 0 to 10)

==============================

I'm sure I've got lots of other editors and utilities I could use, but all 3 tools I've used show 11 sectors.

I think I've proven my point... the judges fucked up in a big way this time.

[sparky]

Stphrz said:

Indeed. Map 10 does only contain 10 sectors. No problems there. As to the other stuff, well, no biggie I say.

You're definately wrong about the number of sectors in MAP10.
I've used 3 tools - WadWhat, WinTex and WinDEU and they all say 11 sectors (numbered 0 to 10).

I could try more tools, but why bother? I'm satisfied.

And your comment about "no biggie"... I wonder if the 6 authors who missed out with two Top32 votes agree with you?

================================================================

I found five of the maps unplayable, even on skill 2 !!!

Here's some notes I made at the time... feel free to comment.
Remember, with 138 maps to test, I bet the judges used a liberal amount of cheating to get through them all. Evidenced by AndrewB's liberal use of the expressions "great weapons balance" and "great balance" on maps which had no or poor difficulty settings.

MAP08
- too hard after the Cacodemon/HellBaron fight - trapped in a room with Hell Knights, Imps and a heap of Revenants! With no skill settings, this map was obviously designed with the Doom God Demo Makers in mind.

MAP26
- not enough ammo after the yellow door - good luck punching out Cacodemons, Pain Elementals, Revenants, and others!
- I also got sick of getting hit by monsters after getting stuck to the wall decorations and 3D floors. Perhaps on a 600MHz+ machine I may have been able to make my ammo last longer :(

MAP27 - once again, on only skill 3, I ran out of ammo shortly after crossing the bridge. After a lot of dying, I managed to find some, but nowhere near enough to finish the level. I might try again and punch all the lesser monsters at the start to conserve ammo. No way is that a technique for typical skill 2 players with no prior knowledge of the map. Even though this map has skill settings implemented, once again, I get the impression that it was designed with the UV100 Demo-Gods in mind.

MAP30 - a nonlinear map with oceans of lava - once again, designed for demo makers with knowledge of the map. Teleporting the player to the next part of the puzzle would have made more
sense than teleporting him back to the middle. If I were a marine I'd rather bite the business end of my own shotgun than die horribly in nukage without a rad-suit.
- this map definately shouldn't have been voted #1 as it isn't a general-purpose level, and would only appeal to demo makers and iddqd'ers.

MAP31 - a disgustingly horrible map with absolutely no place in this Megawad. It's a travesty that Linguica would include this
map, which received no votes from the judges, instead of one of the seven maps which missed out after getting two Top32 votes from the judges.

[stphrz]

I did a HAND COUNT (heh) of the sectors in map 10. There are 10. They range from 0 to 9. There is no sector # above 9 or below 0. That means there are 10 sectors. Those other tools are simply wrong. They must be counting a pillar or some other area of void space by virtue of some bug in their programming. Or something. Ling WAS A JUDGE. I stated my opinion. I stand by it. You stated yours. Who's right? Eh? Eh?

[boris]

Both of you are right. It may sound a bit strange, but the maps uses 10 sectors (as Stphrz hand-counted), but actually has 11. You ask how this is possible and why different tools get different results? Have a look at the SECTORS lump of MAP10. It's 286 bytes, what means that it *defines* 11 sectors (each sector is 26 bytes). It could even define 19087234981234 sectors, but only 10 of them could still be used in the level. Now it could depend on the method the tools are using to get the sector number. Let's say it would simply take the size of the lump and devide it by 26. Then it'd get 11 sectors. But when it goes trugh all linedefs (for instance) and counts the sectors this way it may only get 10 sectors.

Heh, I think this was my longest post ever.

[stphrz]

Then the way I see it, the map is legal. If there's some sector in the map that has no linedefs assigned to it and is not used in any way, then the map adheres to the spirit and the letter of the rules.

[Guest Fanatic]

boris said:

Both of you are right. It may sound a bit strange, but the maps uses 10 sectors (as Stphrz hand-counted), but actually has 11. You ask how this is possible and why different tools get different results? Have a look at the SECTORS lump of MAP10. It's 286 bytes, what means that it *defines* 11 sectors (each sector is 26 bytes). It could even define 19087234981234 sectors, but only 10 of them could still be used in the level. Now it could depend on the method the tools are using to get the sector number. Let's say it would simply take the size of the lump and devide it by 26. Then it'd get 11 sectors. But when it goes trugh all linedefs (for instance) and counts the sectors this way it may only get 10 sectors.

Heh, I think this was my longest post ever.

I have the same problem in DOOMCad 5.1, you delete a sector, it's gone from sight, but not removed from the lumps.

You have to use a seperate tool to clean the unused sector.

Technically, I would say that it's a legit 10 sector level, since only 10 were used. The extra one is unused, and probably left over from a buggy level editor, like the one I use.

[Guest Dimiter]

linguica said they would load the wad in deth, clean the unused items (including sectors), and then judje the sector count. that explains it all :)

[Linguica]

Let's see... where to start, oh yes, how about

"Shut up."

Now that that's out of the way... let's see here. I am so glad that despite having been given two full megawads for free, you still find it necessary to bitch and moan over it. Do you complain about your Christmas presents?

First off, Map10 of 10sector.wad does in fact have 10 sectors. As stated in the rules, I would open the WAD in DETH, remove all unused resources, and count the sectors. I did exactly that and counted ten. End of discussion.

As for the method of judging... the first thing that I did was include the top ten levels from each of the four judges. I forget how many this turned out to be in total, maybe around 20 levels or so. Why did I decide to do it this way? When you're played 138 levels, it is hard to remember them all, and it is even harder to try and decide which 32 of those are the best in your mind. For some of the judges, they felt it came down to which WADs were "least worst" rather than "best." I knew that each of the judges would be able to find 10 levels that they definitely liked and definitely thought should be in the megawad. Choosing solely from the top 32 would mean that there would be some WADs that people had in their top 32 because they thought the WAD was OK but they didn't want to go back through and see if there was another one out of a hundred which might be a little better.

After I counted all the top-10 entries, I took the WADs which were selected by at least three of the four judges in their top 32. I thought that this would ensure good maps since a clear majority of the judges had to like it enough to be in the top 32, as opposed to just half.

As for Map31, that level was in AndrewB's top 10 list. Don't ask me why he put it there.

[Cyb]

Calm yourself. Sheesh. First off, the map does indeed have 11 sectors, but one of them has no linedefs or sidedefs. How I originally made the map was by making all the sectors seperate and merging them with Waded's flimsy sector merging techniques. This moved all the linedefs and sidedefs to one sector, but left the empty shell of a sector which I couldn't remove (I recently 'quit' Doom and removed all my spiffy editors that could have done that). However, Ling said he would remove all unused resources in the contest rules, and that's just what that 'sector' is, an unused resource.

So really what we have here is not an error on the part of anyone, it's some freak with waaaay too much time on his hands and absolutly no knowledge of doom levels and level editing (or at least not enough to make such an accusation). If you had thought about this, you would have noticed that one of the sectors viewed did not display anything. Also, when viewed in WadAuthor I believe that ghost sector doesn't even register and it counts 10, but I might be wrong. Either way, count all the used sectors and you'll see there's 10.

Thanks for making an ass out of yourself, we all appreciate it.

[Guest fraggle`]

linguica must have excluded my wad as punishment for starting the free hissy campaign!!

[Jon]

Sparky said:

But if you try DETH, which linguica said he was going to use, you'll find that its only 10 sectors.

[stphrz]

Cyb said:

Wadauthor counts sectors by going through all the sidedefs, checking which sector number they reference. A much more accurate method than dividing the size of the sector lump by 26.

[sparky]

Cyb said:

Calm yourself. Sheesh. First off, the map does indeed have 11 sectorsbut left the empty shell of a sector which I couldn't removeHowever, Ling said he would remove all unused resources in th

Well Cyb,

where do I start here...

a) get stuffed

b) don't blame your tools and another person (Ling) for a fuckup which was your responsiblity.

c) the error was not mine, I simply pointed out the fact that you had 11 sectors in your level. The burdon of proof is on you to defend yourself (which you did by blaming Ling and your editor).

d) aren't we all "freaks" with "way too much time on his hands" being so obsessed with a 7 year old game. I suggest you look outside the Doom Community for an answer to this one.

e) "absolutly no knowledge of doom levels and level editing (or at least not enough to make such an accusation)."
What a totally unreasonable thing to say. I didn't even manually count the sectors myself in a level editor. I wasn't interested in "why" there was an 11 sector map in a 10-sector competition, I was merely questioning what it was doing there at all!


So now let's talk about map14 in 10secto2.wad (by Espi).
Once again, 11 sectors... but guess what, I haven't even loaded it into an editor to find out why.

BTW Cyb, thanks a lot for some really cool wads over the years. I've enjoyed a lot of your stuff. But in this case, be a man and take responsibility for your own fuckup.

[Linguica]

Oh shush. His level appeared to have 11 sectors because of the way his editor worked, not because he used 11 sectors. Now Map14 in 10secto2.wad does in fact have 11 sectors... I didn't check the levels in 10secto2 for that because I didn't feel like taking the time. Oh well.

[stphrz]

Hehe... Nobody's perfect :)

[Test-0]

Sparky said:

fuckup.

Just add 'shut the' in front of that quote, and you got exactly what I want to say to you. Quit bitchin at someone who has more talent then you. :P

Get lost nummnuts, and if you have a problem with someone's level, just put it on a floppy disk, turn that floppy sideways, and shove it right up your '1337 @$$'!

Test-0

[Cyb]

Sparky said:

>>b) don't blame your tools and another person (Ling) for a >>fuckup which was your responsiblity.

Uh, I never blamed Ling anywhere in my post, so I don't know what orifice you pulled that out of. Second, my 'tools' did fuck up. Waded (as much as I love it) is a shitty ass editor. If I had made that map in WadAuthor (which would allow me to use the same techniques) it would have deleted the ghost sector. It WAS my editors fault, you retard.

>>c) the error was not mine, I simply pointed out the fact that >>you had 11 sectors in your level. The burdon of proof is on >>you to defend yourself (which you did by blaming Ling and your >>editor).

Once again I didn't blame Ling, and I think I DID defend myself. I explained why it was there, how it got there and all that garbage. The extra sector isn't used for anything, and if you manually look at each sector you'll notice sector 9 has no linedefs or sidedefs, thus it's not really a sector. I can't make it any simpler than that.

>>d) aren't we all "freaks" with "way too much time on his >>hands" being so obsessed with a 7 year old game. I suggest >>you look outside the Doom Community for an answer to this one.

You're a freak with too much time because you chose to start this stupid argument and feel the need to pick apart something which I think was a very cool idea. Who gives a fuck if my map has a ghost 11th sector? I didn't win the VooDoo5, so what's the difference? It has 10 sectors, end of story.

>>e) "absolutly no knowledge of doom levels and level editing
>>(or at least not enough to make such an accusation)."
>>What a totally unreasonable thing to say. I didn't even >>manually count the sectors myself in a level editor. I wasn't >>interested in "why" there was an 11 sector map in a 10-sector >>competition, I was merely questioning what it was doing there >>at all!

And I told you, yet you still carry on. Plus, if you had knowledge of this sort of thing you'd know what I'm talking about and stop. Let it be already, you're wrong.

[sparky]

You just can't let it go, can you?
Be a man, accept responsibility,
and drop it.

[sparky]

Test-0 said:

Just add 'shut the' in front of that quote, and you got exactly what I want to say to you. Quit bitchin at someone who has more talent then you. :P

Get lost nummnuts, and if you have a problem with someone's level, just put it on a floppy disk, turn that floppy sideways, and shove it right up your '1337 @$$'!

Test-0

a) well, that was a well reasoned arguement... very mature.

b) obviously Cyb is better at building Doom maps than me.
So what's that got to do with it?

c) If I "have a problem with someone's level" I generally notify them about it. Wad authors rely on the feedback of others. The only reason I'm even using this forum to discus the matter is that there's nothing Cyb can do to update/bugfix his map - it's really up to Ling if he wants to fix all the bugs in 10sector.wad (and there's quite a few).

d) Your pre-occupation with "nuts" and inserting things into anal cavaties makes me seriously question your sexual preferences.

[sparky]

Linguica said:

Oh shush. His level appeared to have 11 sectors because of the way his editor worked, not because he used 11 sectors. Now Map14 in 10secto2.wad does in fact have 11 sectors... I didn't check the levels in 10secto2 for that because I didn't feel like taking the time. Oh well.

Ling, in retrospect, don't you think the maps should have been checked for validity BEFORE they even went to the judges? With 138 maps to play-test I'm sure the judges would have been happy to lose some which failed to meet the contest criteria.

Is there any chance of updating 10sector.wad to fix the myriad of bugs before the demo makers start churning out lmps? Perhaps you could email each author and specify a closing date for bugfixed wads. Proper guidelines on skill settings would also have been welcomed by most players, as many of the maps have no/poor settings.

[Linguica]

At the beginning I checked every WAD as it came in for compliance but I got sick of that pretty quickly.

As for bugfixes, the purpose of the contest wad to build a WAD in 30 days and then release the 32 WADs that the judges thought were the best. Tweaking the levels afterwards would sort of invalidate both the one-month time limit and the idea that the levels were judged to be the best. If this was a normal megawad project then of course tweaking the levels to be perfect would just fine, but it was a contest and the levels should be as-is. I think Map16 is unbeatable, at least the version I put into the WAD... I might offer a revised version to fix that.

[Test-0]

Sparky said:

a) well, that was a well reasoned arguement... very mature.

b) obviously Cyb is better at building Doom maps than me.
So what's that got to do with it?

c) If I "have a problem with someone's level" I generally notify them about it. Wad authors rely on the feedback of others. The only reason I'm even using this forum to discus the matter is that there's nothing Cyb can do to update/bugfix his map - it's really up to Ling if he wants to fix all the bugs in 10sector.wad (and there's quite a few).

d) Your pre-occupation with "nuts" and inserting things into anal cavaties makes me seriously question your sexual preferences.

Ha! I was wondering if you would try and call me something right back. I don't even have to say anything to you anymore, because I have just 'pulled' you down to 'my' level, and thats more of a comeback then anything I can possibly say to you.

Oh yes, and while I'm at it... you free for tomorow? =)

Test-0

[SoM]

Sparky said:

Sparky,

instructions to find out how many sectors the map uses:
download DETH 2.42
load the wad using deth (deth -file <wadfile.wad>)
go into the level editor (command: e 10)
press F10 and select "Check references and delete unused objects"
Press y when it tells you that there are unused sectors and asks you if you would like to delete them. THEN COUNT THE SECTORS.

ahem...
Steven

[Cyb]

Sparky said:

You just can't let it go, can you?
Be a man, accept responsibility,
and drop it.

I decided to check this thread to see if Sparky had anything interesting to say. I wasn't going to respond, but what he posted just makes me laugh.

>>You just can't let it go, can you?
>>Be a man, accept responsibility,
>>and drop it.

First off, I DID accept the responsibility, you moron. I SAID, flat out, that there are 11 sectors, but one is a ghost sector. If you had ANY knowledge of Doom level editing you'd know that a sector with no linedefs or sidedefs is a USELESS SECTOR THAT SERVES NO PURPOSE. IT IS A LEVEL EDITOR BUG, NOTHING MORE.

Second off, you should take your own advice and let it go. Instead of finding one tiny, stupid half-assed flaw you should applaud (sp) the efforts of Ling and all the judges as well as the authors of the 32 levels for their hard work and creativity with a mere 10 sectors. People like you make the world the annoying place it is. Just shut your ignorant mouth and enjoy the damn megawad.

[sirgalahadwizar]

HAHA!

I can't even make maps so I am going to laugh at you. I don't even know what a sidedef or linedef is so there!

This gives me that feeling of foreign nations watching the united states and laughing at the crisis with the voting.