Worries about Doom ]|[

[SoKatH]

Yeah, so I've been looking around the community and I'm seriously worried. Too many people out there are talking about applying "modern" computer game traits to the new Doom; I mean not that they have any real say in how the game is develloped but still...

For example, there are people out there who say "Oh if the AI from Q3A is used we won't need a room full of 50+ badasses". I mean honestly what the Hell?? What made doom great was the room of 50+ imps, plus a few odd baron's running around for good measure. And you in the middle with your shotgun, blasting away at them, and that grunt everytime you got hit? How about how the screen went red??? You wouldn't be able to feel those kind of odds, that kind of intensity, that kind of FEAR if you had two smart imps running at you. I'm still all for smart creatures, but for it to be Doom, there has to be A LOT of them!!!

There are other things too, many other things. In order to live up to its namesake Doom 3 has to contain all the original elements of the original. Sure the premise of most FPSs is one guy going up against unimaginable oddds but how often does that REALLY happen??? I mean the closest a modern game has come to emulating the feeling of isolation that doom gives you is Half-Life, and even in that you still meet NPCs within the game. Doom had nothing, everybody was dead!!! And the only thing between you and the monsters was you comparatively puny arsenal of weapons. The odds were not in your favour.

I think Doom would be great with all the technological elements of modern games, ie console, freelook, jump, etc, and all the visual elements lighting lots of polys, and think how the sound could be improved, (God I remember the first time I met those barons at the end of episode 1, it was about 11 at night and I was ten) that sound they made scared the piss out of me). But all the /elements/ of modern games??? You can't have that, you need the simplicity of the original Doom to make it Doom.

I just think that too many people who may have loved Doom in the past have changed with the times and are expecting a game with the Doom name, but made it the modern style. And that's how it should NOT be. But my real fear is that there will be enough of these people within the community to actually make an impression on the iD and have them change the style in which the make the game to make them happy.

Feel better having gotten that out, thanks for indulging me.

And I thiink that they should ask Romero and Hall back for this, I mean what's Doom without them??? You know that sound that play at the beginning of the Icon of Sin in Doom II: "oremoR nhoJ em llik tsum uoy emag eht niw oT" That's where it was at... I hope you figure out what I'm talking about.

SoKatH

[Guest Xero]

This is what i have been saying since quake... (about the next DooM, since quake/when romero left later) You can't sacrifice game play for poly's... quake is quake that's how it plays ... but DooM is the father of it all (well more like mother with WS 3d) it was scary...it was hard ... it was the first FPS i ever played, back the you could feel the breath of an imp on the back of your neck, you swore the barons were right behind you on the couch when they screamed, you could feel the heat from the rocket that cyber demon nearly hit you with ... if they put the AI from Q3A in DooM 3..they might as well make it a 3rd person shooter ... or RPG...its DooM for Christ sake ... the game is not going to work with 5 enemies per level ... that's not the game i remember ... yeah, i know the times change, the graphics change, but not the Game play ... not when you have something as meaty as DooM!... So if you want QA3 AI play Quake 3: arena but if you're a man ... take your DooM extra chunky.

[deadnail]

You still have HOPES for Doom 3? Ha.

I gave up on thinking that the game is going to make me happy I bought it a good while ago. There just won't be as many enemies. There just won't be the same originality within the level design. There just won't be the same fast paced and frantic gameplay.

It's not going to be the Doom we all know.

If it was, it would've been out in '96.

With the better half of a decade in between, I'm certain the game is going to be a completely new and different experience, and I'm sure that, to me at least, it won't live up to the legacy that has been set.

iD could still prove me wrong.

Q3A has filled me with nothing but doubt.

[Guest Sadistor]

Xero said:

This is what i have been saying since quake... (about the next DooM, since quake/when romero left later) You can't sacrifice game play for poly's... quake is quake that's how it plays ... but DooM is the father of it all (well more like mother with WS 3d) it was scary...it was hard ... it was the first FPS i ever played, back the you could feel the breath of an imp on the back of your neck, you swore the barons were right behind you on the couch when they screamed, you could feel the heat from the rocket that cyber demon nearly hit you with ... if they put the AI from Q3A in DooM 3..they might as well make it a 3rd person shooter ... or RPG...its DooM for Christ sake ... the game is not going to work with 5 enemies per level ... that's not the game i remember ... yeah, i know the times change, the graphics change, but not the Game play ... not when you have something as meaty as DooM!... So if you want QA3 AI play Quake 3: arena but if you're a man ... take your DooM extra chunky.

What a wonderful game Doom 3 would be if it's game play was identical to that of it's predecessor. Yes, re-rendered models would look great, 4 speaker sound instead of 2 would aim to please and maybe even the integration of Quake 3's freelook and mouse bindings. I really hope they don't go about it from ground up and butcher any of the levels or characters into a faint vision of the past...... That would be like watching an icon to the gaming industry get chewed up, swallowed, partially digested , shit back out, burned, boxed and shipped out to retail outlets and sold for some ridiculous price.

Give it your best, do it for the fans/players/addicts and make us proud!

[Zaldron]

C´mon people...
Yeah, DooM III isn´t DooM 1 or 2. It´s obvious, there is too much progress in the FPS genre to avoid such a clear statement.

We all remember the famous features of DooM, large enemy count; revolutionary graphics; a new genre in PC gaming; intense multiplayer; etc.

Look at this features with the eyes of tomorrow. They´re even less than the expected. DooM was a great game when it hit stores, and it´s still REMEMBERED by the fans as a great one. Note that i wrote REMEMBERED, not IS. I don´t care what you say, but if a new game with the DooM engine appeared in the market, with the same features, even the same "feeling" that everybody here loves, it will suck big time. In the fan section and in the rest of the society.


I´m tired of reading "it isn´t DooM", "it would not feel like DooM", and such. Everyone here believes that DooM was great because of the amount of enemies, or the level desing, or the weapons, or the singleplayer.

Something earns our respect because it made an impact on us. Take your favorite music, do you like it because they´re sounds?
No, because you connect with the song. Do you think that your favorite movie is good because of the composition of the colored-pixel array?? You know what i mean.

Think for a moment, do you believe that the amount of enemies shocked you???
Not at all, it was the fear of seeing so many forms to die...
The scary concept of the game is the key feature. Whatever tools iD use for telling this new incarnation of DooM, if they can make the fear come back again, then all it´s done.
John Romero said it, "keep it scary". He and Hall were more than 50% of the design. Did he say : "place 2000 monsters per level"??
or "don´t write a story"??

DooM is a universe, a franchise almost. This universe had an history, a compelling tale for the 90´s, we call them DooM 1&2
There is so much to tell, to explore, to desing, that those old boundaries must be broken. Take for example, many persons here believes that NPCs will ruin the "feeling".
I think it will enhace it. Imagine, would you like to see how the humans see this evil? know how was your life and yours friends before such a disaster? How they call the Cacodemons??
It would be so marvelous to see not just NPCs giving game flow, but making richer the DooM by adding elements than a flat-plain old FPS can´t translate.
What would be more inmersive, more scary??
12 imps running at you in zig-zag? or only one, in a shadow filled corridor, where noises bounces from every direction because of echoe, where the flashlight stretches new shades an uncover strange symbols in the wall, symbols imbued in evil, painted in blood, the blood of your friends and equals.

With a little bit of luck, we all are gonna play a game in 2002, much awaited for us, called DooM III. And when the first enemy falls to the ground, you´ll stare at the world, look at the nightmarish look of the Earth, and comprehend what horrors lie ahead, then we all are goind to sense that DooM feeling again. The real one, the one when we were kids and played it for the first time. The feeling that everything is doomed, ruined.


And yes, this will split the community in half, but who cares?
Those people won´t be saying "DooM is cool", it would be "DooM 3 is so cool". The sanctity of the fathers of FPS will remain intact. But like a Phoenix, a new incarnation will serve to make people aware of who is the god of all FPSs.

[SoKatH]

Yeah, I suppose to a certain extent you're right. Perhaps I am whining too much, perhaps Doom is a thing of the past. And yes Doom III is NOT Doom one or two, in that I agree with you. But honestly, think of what it would be like if it was similar. Upgraded, but similar, that would be excellent.

[SoKatH]

Zaldron said:

And in rereading your post Zaldron I agree with you. Fear is what made the original as I'd touched on in my original post. I guess I didn't show how important the fear factor was to my enjoyment of the game! It was all about fear, something that modern FPSs lack.

S.

[Zaldron]

SoKatH said:

Yeah, I suppose to a certain extent you're right. Perhaps I am whining too much, perhaps Doom is a thing of the past. And yes Doom III is NOT Doom one or two, in that I agree with you. But honestly, think of what it would be like if it was similar. Upgraded, but similar, that would be excellent.

Would it be good?
that´s a tough question.
Well, if D3 were similar to DooMs, then i´ll never play DooMs 1&2 again. (cool looking levels, monsters,weapons, sounds, etc)
But, in the end, is more of the same. I´ll always wonder what can you archieve by adding today´s features.

Anyway, if DooM3 sucked to your opinion, there´s allways come crazy guys who would made a TC for DooM3 of DooM (?). Someone would make besides a WAD to WHATEVER conversor utility. And finally, there would be plenty of stuff to make a decent movie.

[SoKatH]

Heh, seems apropriate. Its good to have people who think out what they're going to say in response instead of just blasting someone and telling them that they're going to "h4x0r j00 b3k4us3 j00 sux0rz". Not that everyone does that, but it can get tedious.

And God bless TC's the neverending joy of the online gaming industry.

Thanks

S.

(BTW are you German)

[Zaldron]

SoKatH said:

And God bless TC's the neverending joy of the online gaming industry.

Amen


This forum is quite calm, there isn´t much flamers around here.
BTW, im from Argentina, but it would be good to know why you see me as german.

[Zaldron]

deadnail said:

iD could still prove me wrong.Q3A has filled me with nothing but doubt.

Why?
I mean, yeah, Q3A isn´t my favorite game, because it´s just multiplayer and i don´t play that much online. But i seem that this game is quite a nice package, great engine, fun game, highly modificable.

Besides, they were making a online quake, there isn´t that much territory to explore and redesign. It´s quake, possibly the last one.

[SoKatH]

Zaldron said:

Amen


This forum is quite calm, there isn´t much flamers around here.
BTW, im from Argentina, but it would be good to know why you see me as german.

Argentina eh? Cool... Just the way you write english, when you translate german directly, there are a couple of extra words that show up like "to" before a verb, when there wouldn't be one there normally... and you have those, I guess it comes from translating spanish (or is it portuguese forgive my ignorance) into english..

I'm canadian by the way

[Zaldron]

Yeah, you´re right. English is like 10 times simplier than spanish, something that i can´t finish to understand. Besides, i never went to english courses, everything is result of playing games & reading imported books.

[SoKatH]

wow I'm impressed.. VERY impressed...

[Guest Xero]

Sadistor said:

What a wonderful game Doom 3 would be if it's game play was identical to that of it's predecessor. Yes, re-rendered models would look great, 4 speaker sound instead of 2 would aim to please and maybe even the integration of Quake 3's freelook and mouse bindings. I really hope they don't go about it from ground up and butcher any of the levels or characters into a faint vision of the past...... That would be like watching an icon to the gaming industry get chewed up, swallowed, partially digested , shit back out, burned, boxed and shipped out to retail outlets and sold for some ridiculous price.

Give it your best, do it for the fans/players/addicts and make us proud!

Putting NPCs in the game won't kill the game, just ... not you find dozens of tech guys with the same 4 faces (HL...)
OK read the book (
http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=3LPLG668U7&mscssid=NJVDS1E0W0DT8HPHLBCUCPX4CK6H67R3&salesurl=Rwww.bn.com/&isbn=0671525557
Bubooks.com has it cheaper though)
their can be bots in the game... NPCs... just not dozens of them ... and not no many civilians ... but you can't take away the loneliness of DooM... yeah PFC. sanders would work ... but you can't make it so she'll kill everything for you ... can't make it so that she'll jabber on for hours ... she can't have weapons you can't ... with NPCs... you have to do it tastefully... i can't name to many games that can do that ... but ID could ... well at least i think so ... but who gives a flying flip about what i say ... what made the game good is different for everybody ... it was the scariness the loneliness that made me a happy lil psycho ... so just do your own thing ... let it be what it is for you ... but don't hate it because its different ... don't be raciest against story telling games... they can be good.. just they can't make ya thunk to hard (yeah yeah bite me) ... but as I've said ID will come through...

(and PS sorry for the thoughtless postings to busy to sleep, and i have had to many jolt colas in the last.. 5...10 minutes)

[NiGHTMARE]

Xero said:

This is what i have been saying since quake... (about the next DooM, since quake/when romero left later) You can't sacrifice game play for poly's... quake is quake that's how it plays ... but DooM is the father of it all (well more like mother with WS 3d) it was scary...it was hard ... it was the first FPS i ever played, back the you could feel the breath of an imp on the back of your neck, you swore the barons were right behind you on the couch when they screamed, you could feel the heat from the rocket that cyber demon nearly hit you with ... if they put the AI from Q3A in DooM 3..they might as well make it a 3rd person shooter ... or RPG...its DooM for Christ sake ... the game is not going to work with 5 enemies per level ... that's not the game i remember ... yeah, i know the times change, the graphics change, but not the Game play ... not when you have something as meaty as DooM!... So if you want QA3 AI play Quake 3: arena but if you're a man ... take your DooM extra chunky.

Umm, I think you misunderstand. If Doom 3 has the AI from Quake 3, it doesn't mean it will be a bot based game. It means it will be a game where the enemies have the intelligence of bots.

See FAKK2 or Elite Force for games that use Q3's bot AI for normal enemies (well, for some enemies anyway), and also Half-life for enemies with good AI (even though they just use a load of nodes, but no-one bashes the various Doom bots for doing that).