Mapping for limits

[Soundblock]

I want to try to limbo under the old 128 visplanes again. Still loving mapping for limits removed, but for certain needs nothing's like the old vanilla feel.

So, now that I'm good and spoiled about limits being removed in ZDoom, how do I enforced these constraints again? Is there a "best" setup for mapping old school, when editing on a somewhat modern OS? I'm using Windows 7.

DOS Box and Doom2.exe?

Any good links to wikis or such?

[Rayziik]

You could just use chocolate doom. AFAIK, it is exactly like the original exe.

[AD_79]

If you're doing vanilla mapping, there's ChocoRenderLimits, which is a handy fork of Chocolate Doom that is designed specifically for testing in vanilla, as it displays visplane, seg and other limit counts on screen so you have an idea of how close you are to breaking limits.

[boris]

There's also andrewj's Visplane Explorer. GZDB also includes the Visplane Explorer Mode, which is based on andrewj's work. It can't catch every case, but it can be a good indication where you might run into problems.

[scifista42]

A summary and explanation of all vanilla limits can be found here: http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Static_limits.

You may also want to take a look here: http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Engine_bug ("Tutti-frutti effect", "Medusa effect", "Long wall error", "Numeric overflow crash in tall areas" and a few others should be considered during mapping)

What AD_79 said - Chocorenderlimits is very useful for playtesting vanilla maps.

Also, use the Visplane Explorer plugin for DB2/GZDB, which allows you to view amount of VISPLANE/DRAGSEGS/etc in each area. Just keep in mind that the amount might increase during the game, for example when doors open, the player will suddenly see areas behind them as well as in front of them. To counter this, you can manually open all your doors/lifts/etc in the editor, then use Visplane Explorer, then manually set them back again - and either way, keep a reserve under the maximum VISPLANE/DRAWSEGS limits.

NEVER rely on ZDoom/advanced ports to playtest vanilla maps. There are other problems than just vanilla limits and engine bugs that may occur. For example "zdoomisms" - like using S1/SR/W1/WR/G1/GR linedefs with tag 0 (which doesn't refer to the linedef's back side, but to ALL sectors with tag 0 in the entire map), or linedefs with a special action (even walkover, scrolling, all other...) will block player's attempts to press use "through them" on a switch-activated linedef behind them.

[Doomkid]

scifista42 said:

Also, use the Visplane Explorer plugin for DB2/GZDB

I had no idea this existed until now - This is exactly the push I needed to fully move to GZDB.

[scifista42]

The plugin is available for DB2 too, though. When I said "for DB2/GZDB", I meant "for Doom Builder 2 and/or for GZDoom Builder".

[Memfis]

My Visplane Explorer has some "Open Doors" option.

[Doomkid]

scifista42 said:

The plugin is available for DB2 too, though. When I said "for DB2/GZDB", I meant "for Doom Builder 2 and/or for GZDoom Builder".

Yeah but I only started giving GZDB a crac recently, until then I was using DB1 because it had everything I needed.

[gemini09]

I have DOSBox, but I don't think I have doom2.exe anymore..............!!!! :O

[esselfortium]

In addition to Chocorenderlimits and Visplane Explorer for testing, it's also worth keeping in mind that your nodebuilder can have a significant impact on your segs and visplanes. My usual choice for vanilla is the "ZenNode - Vanilla Optimized" setting from this file, which you can drop into the /Compilers/Nodebuilders/ subfolder of your GZDB or DB2 folder in Program Files: http://esselfortium.net/wasd/CustomNodes.cfg

"BSP-W32 - Fast Optimized Visplanes" is a good second choice if you don't get along with ZenNode. BSP-W32 generally manages less visplane reduction than ZenNode, but is a bit more lenient with regard to oddball sector-reference tricks. (ZenNode generally supports sector tricks, but is very particular about sector numbering.)

Either of those will give you more freedom in vanilla than the usual modern default of ZDBSP, which is mainly optimized for detailed sourceport mapping.



Also, make sure you keep archviles in mind when testing visplane limits... Having your height jump up from one of their hits can often cause more floors to come into view. There's a hotkey in Chocorenderlimits to simulate vilejumps for this purpose :)

edit: Also, avoid the common mistake of trying to use doors to block planes -- they're not reliable enough to depend on, and there are usually better ways to limit line of sight. I recommend testing for limits with all doors propped open, to be safe.

[Soundblock]

Many useful links, cheers!

Sounds like Chocolate Doom and BSP-W32 is what I need to start with.

scifista42 said:

NEVER rely on ZDoom/advanced ports to playtest vanilla maps.

Including Chocolate Doom?

esselfortium said:

Also, make sure you keep archviles in mind when testing visplane limits...

Never mind being juggled by multiple viles in slaughter maps! I guess most slaughter maps are limit removed by their very nature though...

Ah... looking forward to strategically placing pillars to save long views again. The visplane limit really helps shape a map as much as it is a nuisance.

[scifista42]

Soundblock said:

Including Chocolate Doom?

Chocolate Doom is OK.