Maps Without Secrets

[scifista42]

I'm also not a fan of hard battles inside secrets, but I'm fully OK with secrets that give you goodies AND open a monster closet somewhere outside the secret to release monsters to await you on your way out of the secret. It shouldn't be a punishing encounter, just somewhat challenging at most, and the goodies found in the secret should be able to balance it out to feel worth finding anyway, unless you play overly sloppily (in which case punishment by losing health/ammo is appropriate).

[termrork]

Memfis said:

Putting secret items in your maps feels like killing the balance. You're going to test how your map plays without any secrets, right?

The only time I put secrets into my maps I balanced it with using the secrets of course. Otherwise like you said the map will become too easy, what is for sure not my task. But I am also someone who opens doombuilder and searches for secrets. I apologize to any mapper and any player of my maps!!

[baja blast rd.]

Memfis said:

Punishing for finding secrets is bullshit, always disliked that. Putting necessary items in secrets is maybe even worse. Making secrets generally useless = might as well not have them then. \o/

I don't think a fun battle is punishment, really. It's not like it has to be among the toughest fights in the level. It just has to introduce another "vector of difficulty" -- e.g., if you can win this AV + three rev fight in this medium-sized room with pillars without making a major mistake or two, you emerge with a free soulsphere (or at least a fraction of one)! It's sort of like a trade-off from the player's perspective. Yeah it's true that if the player doesn't have the skill level to beat that fight, the secret will be punishment, but if the fight is commensurate with the rest of the fights on the given skill level, I don't see it as a problem.

I'm not referring to "necessary" items, as in "Hey, let's put a mandatory key and the important SSG in a secret". I'm just talking about picking up a medkit here and an armor there and a helpful-but-not-mandatory radsuit here and a couple of rockets there, and dispersing them among secrets. So the map's balance shifts a bit from (for example) "tough, and you are allowed to make X minor mistakes" from "tough, and you are allowed to make X+2 minor mistakes", with the latter being the "intended balance" but the former not being too prohibitive or anything.

Secrets can be useless from a gameplay perspective but offer interesting sights or whatever. In my map "From Tears" I decided to put in a cacodemon computer terminal. In retrospect I should have made the caco teleport closer, and one player found the small amount of health inside very useful given the tightness of the balance elsewhere, but anyway, it's just a serviceable example of the philosophy, not meant to be a perfect example.

[pritch]

My thoughts for secrets;

1) Not too many of them. Scale it per size of the map. Generally keep below double figures on even the biggest maps.

2) Vary the challenge and reward accordingly.

3) Do not make the player worse off by compensating the reward with a nasty trap.

4) Mix up the clues that give away secrets

5) Do not make secrets a matter of wall-humping or similar to find

6) Vary the style. Don't just offer material reward all the time. Offer architectural reward, or a chance to make a certain battle easier (route to allow an approach from behind monster etc.)

7) Don't make finding a secret necessary to complete a map! (personal bugbear) And avoid tagging an area that really isn't secret e.g. player start sector as secret. Once per megawad MAYBE and it had better deserve it.

8) Occasionally put some secrets within secrets

9) Don't fall in to patterns

10) Make the secret exit secret really special, and the super secret exit even more so, where applicable.

There's nothing wrong with a map without secrets, but it should be the exception, not the rule. There would ideally be a thematic or other reason why it doesn't have them, e.g. it's map32, or it's something like Plutonia Map11 "Hunted" although that does have 1 secret.

[VGamingJunkie]

Memfis said:

Putting necessary items in secrets is maybe even worse.

Nitemare 3D sort of did that but it wasn't as bad because, if you had anything in the eye power, the pupil lit up when you were near a secret door. Theoretically, it could be possible in ZDoom with some ACS trickery. Well, that and the fact that destructible walls stood out like a sore thumb.

[Xaser]

Yakfak gets it -- it's super-cool when secrets lead to interesting, complex, or downright strange stuff. Sorta a smaller-scale version of the cool-factor that secret levels bring to the table*.

Otherwise, pretty much neutral re: secrets vs. none. Cool stuff gets a bonus, lack thereof doesn't dock any points.


[*when they're not for vanilla doom2.wad and always exist on MAP15. :P ]

[Job]

Noiser said:

This is curious. Personally speaking, I never felt pressured to find secrets. Unless the map has some bullshit difficulty or something almost required to proceed.

I'm a self-proclaimed completionist whore. When I hit tab at the start of a map and see 0/0 secrets, I know I can enjoy it without wall humping every other sector.

[Doomkid]

Memfis said:

as a mapper I find it kinda sad to rape my own maps with secrets. Who's going to appreciate my cool balance if the secrets ruin it? I doubt the player will agree to deliberately ignore all secrets just to please me.

You don't see any appeal in playing a map the second (or even first) time and finding that badass secret that allows you to plow through what would have otherwise been a slog? Hell, I love empowering the player like that if they actually bother to explore my maps. "That's right, you took the time to try that weird jump, or find that pixel out of place - Go on, have a soulsphere, on me!"

Memfis said:

Yes! I dislike it when people complain about secrets being obtuse. Yes, they are secrets, you're not supposed to find them, that's the idea lol.

Now this I hate. "Can you make your secrets a little less secret?" Rofl, that's the whole point, they're called secrets for a reason! Of course a fucking soulsphere and backpack is going to be hard to find!

[esselfortium]

I love well-done secrets. They can be a great way to add some exploration and mystery to a level.

When I was newer to mapping I used to put in a lot of really involved and elaborate secret passageways and puzzles. I ought to try doing more of that again, but for some reason it doesn't seem to come as naturally as it used to.

[DeathevokatioN]

I like secrets... but at the same time I legitimately prefer a map with no secrets than one where you open/lower a 64x64 sector that has a stimpack that got repeated in a modern mapset (which was otherwise fucking awesome, with expressive vibrant visuals and energetic gameplay) because said author didn't want to break the balance of the gameplay.

I hope I'm being vague enough that no one picks up which mapset it is, but basically, secrets done well or no secrets for me. :P

[Dragonfly]

esselfortium said:

When I was newer to mapping I used to put in a lot of really involved and elaborate secret passageways and puzzles. I ought to try doing more of that again, but for some reason it doesn't seem to come as naturally as it used to.

This is so true of me, too. When I started I was a real secret hunter when I played game, all those hidden nooks and crannies in older games like Doom, Sonic, Pokémon, etc made the games far more entertaining to me. Perhaps I too should map with huge secret areas, stop giving a damn if people will see it or not and let the minority of secret hunters be greatly rewarded!

[Yuki Senmatsu]

I'm a fan of those myself, but finding placements can be trickysome sometimes and I don't want it to be too simple to find.

Hope to add some to WintCity.wad. For now, making it less linear.

[pritch]

esselfortium said:

I love well-done secrets. They can be a great way to add some exploration and mystery to a level.

When I was newer to mapping I used to put in a lot of really involved and elaborate secret passageways and puzzles. I ought to try doing more of that again, but for some reason it doesn't seem to come as naturally as it used to.

One of my favourite secrets, or one that sticks in the memory, is from possibly a Wolfendoom map, where the secret passage led all the way around the outside of the map layout and weaving in and out of void areas, and almost back on to itself. Felt spooky, and with a low light level, makes the player tentative. Gets you anticipating that fullbright powerup. Just being given extra yardage, when it's done right, is special.

[killer2]

I absolutely love secrets! Whenever a map has no secrets I always feel a tad disappointed, although I don't outright hate it. They break down the (fun) monotony of only shooting stuff that can get old sometimes, especially in a map that is visually lacking.

Secrets are awesome for many reasons! From the simple yet loved medkit/ammo, to the cool weapon that makes things easier, to full fledged new exciting, cool looking areas and even cameos, I feel secrets offer a LOT to every level that has them if they are done right.

I must say, I never felt the "too many secrets" thing some of you have felt. Nothing makes me happier than to open a huge map and see the secrets are in the double digits.

That being said, there are some secrets that are best to be avoided. Bland secrets, stupid secrets (oh, I just had to press that portion of a wall that stands out in NO way and isn't marked on the map. COOL!), multi-secrets (remember when secrets used to be marked 3-10 times for the same area? Stupid.) and secrets that either make the level way too easy (by a ridiculous margin, hello D2M6) or are complete dogshit (adding a stupid-hard area in the level for virtually no reason than to piss you off for taking your time to look for the darn thing!).

I mostly prefer secrets in newer maps because there's more room for them to surprise you, but that doesn't mean oldschool secrets can't be completely awesome!

Some maps with great secrets I can remember:DMP2012's M13, DMP2014's M22,zDMP2014's M1 and M8, Grove (although it's way too overkill for me, gave up like halfway through), most Tormentor667 levels, most PCORF levels (especially Doomed Space Wars), Threshhold of Pain (2), Action Doom (2), Thunderpeak (IIRC, played it long ago), Winter's Fury (complete with secret story logs), Knee Deep in Zdoom, Z-Pack, Deus Vult II,Zdoom Community Project Take 1/2 (although the soul-bfg weapon secret, while cool to find, completely wrecks ANY balance the last part of the map was supposed to have and is therefore pretty bad), the original Neodoom, etc.

Mappers, don't you worry, there are plenty of guys who love secrets around here! That's one of the elements that has drawn some of us to Doom and HeXen in the first place, after all.