Is MouseTurn Cheating?

[RestlessRodent]

printz said:

I use Y-axis movement to move very slowly. It's useful when backing off from Demons just 10 centimetres. I first saw it in some nightmare demos where the player was moving very little to avoid the bites.

I find it a nice feature and I don't get why it's so disliked. I do however choose to use just the keyboard when I have to move on a thin bridge. It's a small handicap but it doesn't happen all the time.

I use in that way, to gently back off to avoid the bite and then move back up so it tries to attack again so it never actually moves up. Do not try this on Cacodemons however.

[Avoozl]

It's funny because in modern games people would call auto aim cheating, but with old games people would call mouse look cheating.

[RestlessRodent]

Avoozl said:

It's funny because in modern games people would call auto aim cheating, but with old games people would call mouse look cheating.

Depends, sometimes autoaim makes you worse off. Games such as Goldeneye and Perfect Dark when playing on higher difficulties add a delay to autoaim, the easiest difficulty the aiming is instant like it is on multiplayer, however on the most difficult there is about a half second to a second response time when auto aiming which means if an enemy is moving fast enough in a direction perpendicular to you then you will miss.

[printz]

Mouse looking is not cheating. Without it, certain encounters become excruciating, particularly those which are meant for circle-strafing, which is hard to do with the keyboard alone. I had serious difficulty in situations like Hell Revealed MAP13 (the "Eden" level, just near the start) and the KDiZD finale.

[snapshot]

It's not a cheat as long as it's available by default (Original .exe) .

[Azuruish]

Game looks weird if mouselook on Z axis is available. The first time i saw this in Duke Nukem 3D but as i know it's not exist in original game.

[Maes]

Da Werecat said:

Why don't you try and beat some speedrunning records with a gamepad first?

Rather than beating them, I personally would be happy with a "gamepad league", a "keyboard-only" league and so on, with their own range of records, and people who train to excel within their limitations, so that we can see how much they can be stretched.

Of course, a gamepad league (or rather, joystick league) would have to comply with vanilla/IBM PC limitations on joystick input, which means that only 4 functions can be mapped to joystick buttons and only one joystick's axes can be used (I think).

This means that gamepads/joysticks can only operate in pure analog mode (stick) OR in pure D-pad mode (e.g. Gravis Gamepad), or switch between the two on-the-fly, but not have both active at the same time. Unless of course there was a mixed playstation-style gamepad with both kinds of controls and 4 axes of control, which could be attached to a standard gameport back in 1994), or there were people hardcore enough to use two controllers (e.g. pedals + a flight stick) with Doom back then.

[wallabra]

My 65th try of beating MAP01 with a mouse. I just don't git gud!

[fraggle]

printz said:

Mouse looking is not cheating.

What about on MAP30?

[RestlessRodent]

Beating DOOM2.WAD MAP07 with jumping in 7 seconds makes you look like a cheater.

Beating DOOM2.WAD MAP07 without jumping in 7 seconds makes you look awesome.

[Voros]

fraggle said:

What about on MAP30?

Yeah, that can be considered cheating or qn advantage...

[Maes]

What if you manage to activate the all-ghosts bug in MAP30, idclip to Romero's head, and kill it from there?

[printz]

fraggle said:

What about on MAP30?

Oh, I was only talking about horizontal mlook. I thought I was talking to hardcore keyboard users denying even that.

[Azuruish]

printz said:

Mouse looking is not cheating.

If: We are talking about original Doom or PRBoom then it's not cheating as even if you press 'P' (vertical mlook) in PRBoom, AutoF#####Aim will still in priority.
Else if: ZDoom then... cheating i guess as jumping and crouching... But wait: This is cheating within original Doom not within ZDoom.
Weird. How can be it cheating if it available? Non-sense.

[VGA]

If you play maps contrary to the way they were designed and balanced for, giving you an advantage, then it can be considered cheating.

[Maes]

VGA said:

If you play maps contrary to the way they were designed and balanced for, giving you an advantage, then it can be considered cheating.

The most COMPET-N demos could be considered cheating, as even simply exploiting the full gap-crossing ability of Doomguy by simple SR-40 was not even considered at the time. And that's not even beginning to factor in stuff like glides, squeezes, SR50, wallrunning etc.

[Azuruish]

VGA said:

If you play maps contrary to the way they were designed and balanced for, giving you an advantage, then it can be considered cheating.

It's heart attack for speedrunnes like me.

[VGA]

Maes said:

The most COMPET-N demos could be considered cheating, as even simply exploiting the full gap-crossing ability of Doomguy by simple SR-40 was not even considered at the time. And that's not even beginning to factor in stuff like glides, squeezes, SR50, wallrunning etc.

But all of those were possible in the original game, so it's fair play!

[Maes]

VGA said:

But all of those were possible in the original game, so it's fair play!

It's a tricky boundary, really. One could argue that everything that is achievable through carefully planned/executed regular input (and not e.g. memory or executable hacking) is "fair play", though that would include many forms of TAS which "just" feed the game VERY precisely planned input.

If we restrict this to be REAL TIME input executed by a talented human being (and not pre-scripted/recorded at a lower speed), than you have what speedrunners do :-)

[RjY]

printz said:

Oh, I was only talking about horizontal mlook.

Please for the sake of everyone's sanity do not refer to turning as "horizontal mouselook"

[SavageCorona]

If nobody wanted you to be able to jump, crouch and freeaim they wouldn't have made ports that allow you to do such things. There are settings that let you forcibly disable these optional features even within ZDoom and its derivatives.