Does he ever die?

[Buckshot]

I mean, Hellspawn building spaceships and cruising around the galaxy isn't the strangest thing I've ever heard.

There's that tidbit about scientology: A big evil alien named Xenu, a Boening 747 flying through space, a giant volcano that destroys an entire planet, etc, etc.


So Yeah.

[RestlessRodent]

Well during the first invasion, Hell may have just sent some things to space so that there could be a backup plan in waiting?

[Gez]

Buckshot said:

I mean, Hellspawn building spaceships and cruising around the galaxy isn't the strangest thing I've ever heard.

There's that tidbit about scientology: A big evil alien named Xenu, a Boening 747 flying through space, a giant volcano that destroys an entire planet, etc, etc.


So Yeah.

Those were spaceships shaped like the Douglas DC-8. The Boeing 747 is a full 15 years younger than scientology, so the aliens didn't get to fly space jumbos.

[LanHikariDS]

Voros said:

Doomguy starts an instant teleporter to finish the job in the other facilities, all by pressing the right switch. And in Hell? Even they have teleporters, or how else would they have attacked mankind? With spaceships?

It's been a while since I read it, so I should flip through it again, but as I recall, at the end of the "Knee Deep in the Dead" Novel, this is addressed.

Spoiler

As I remember it, it said that after Flynn and Arlene defeated the Spider Mastermind, and they looked to the spacious void, they saw ships coming from where they were, going towards Earth.

[yakfak]

my headcanon is that our trusty Doom Marine sprains his ankle falling into the secret Mega-armor area, takes some gunshots to tertiarily-critical body locations, survives the ambush in front of the exit door through sheer dumb luck (the shotgunner shoots the barrel) and then gets eviscerated in the lift fighting with the Imp, dying shortly before arriving at E1M2.

I sorta reject action heroes as a useful fictional element

[Maes]

Voros said:

Plus, these demons seem more like brutes than brains, so why would they need a spaceship? They're not even from space!

Hah.
Heh.

[Csonicgo]

scifista42 said:

Yes, Doomguy actually dies every time his health counter reaches zero. However, the player can choose to return Doomguy back in time (in the Doomguy's timeline) and try to change his fate, as many times as the player wants.

What about savegames?

[Voros]

Wait. Demons come from other planets? Not a fiery dimension meant for punishment?
Spaceship huh? Well, where did that ship come from? How did it go into our dimension's space?

[LanHikariDS]

Csonicgo said:

What about savegames?

It's like a time beacon for when he goes back after death. There's one at the beginning of each level, and he puts one down when the player saves.

[Deleted_Account]

Maybe Doomguy is having his very own groundhog day?

[Maes]

It's all in his head. That'd explain a lot of things.

[SavageCorona]

He dies when you die. Because you suck. You're a fucking murderer.

[SYS]

He dies and comes back. Only it's like the movie groundhog day coupled with the Nameless One's (planescape torment) amnesia.

[Voros]

SavageCorona said:

He dies when you die. Because you suck. You're a fucking murderer.

We all done killed him at least once in our lives.
we are all murderers.

[Clonehunter]

Voros said:

We all done killed him at least once in our lives.
we are all murderers.

Actually, I'm a life giver. Every time I hit the spacebar Doomguy revives. I give life. When I take it, it is not murder, but divine love.

[Doomkid]

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/death/

[Maes]

SavageCorona said:

He dies when you die. Because you suck. You're a fucking murderer.

That made me think deeper...when YOU, as in, REALLY YOU, die, then "your" Doomguy also dies for good. Except in preserved LMPs, that is. Kinda creepy if you think about it...

[Voros]

Maes said:

That made me think deeper...when YOU, as in, REALLY YOU, die, then "your" Doomguy also dies for good. Except in preserved LMPs, that is. Kinda creepy if you think about it...

So basically, we are the Arch Vile for Doomguy.

[Zulk RS]

Voros said:

So basically, we are the Arch Vile for Doomguy.

You may be on to something there.

What if, Doomguy does die at the end of E1M8. Someone like a friendly archvile takes him to the start of E2M1 and resurrects him.

When Doomguy wakes up, he has no memory of dying or thinks it was some weird hallucination. The guy who resurrects him is a kleptomaniac. He can't help stealing all of Doomguy's weapons and leaves a pistol with 50 bullets so that Doomguy can still survive.

[Lila Feuer]

This is every game in a nutshell, even without savegames the player character is always suppose to succeed in whatever they're doing, unless it's plot defined for them to die. It's up to us to guide them on their way and they'll only fail if we suck at the game.

I especially like it in games when the player character is suppose to be a badass that can't lose and the game is really hard so we make them look bad despite (if they talk) they say 'that was too easy'. See Devil May Cry.

I figured the Doomguy stepped into a telepad that was corrupted and temporarily transported him to a bad place in E1M8 but upon E2M1 he fully recovers albeit stripped of extra weapons and supplies from said corrupted telepad. He's just lucky he's still alive.

[Buckshot]

Cyanosis said:

This is every game in a nutshell, even without savegames the player character is always suppose to succeed in whatever they're doing, unless it's plot defined for them to die. It's up to us to guide them on their way and they'll only fail if we suck at the game.

So then, that's it? You never die. period.

Which seems so.... wrong? What's the challenge and the risk if you never expire? It's immediately given you will conquer, even amongst numerous attempts, so long as you keep attempting. How is that fair?

What if, you played a game, and the moment you die... that's it. game over. can never have a second chance, can never player again. Game suddenly erases itself from whatever existence you've installed it on, and you lose $60. Seems a little more intriguing and intimidating, doesn't it? To die permanently... Much more rewarding to make it through.

[Deleted_Account]

What if it's all just, I don't know a simulation of some kind? Like it's some kind of electronic thing that humans interact with, like it's a game or something.

[Buckshot]

Piper Maru said:

What if it's all just, I don't know a simulation of some kind? Like it's some kind of electronic thing that humans interact with, like it's a game or something.

I've said this before... but technically, per science, DOOM is based on a true story.

In a quantum universe, with infinite outcomes & infinite possibilities, across parallel dimensions... Everything you have thought of (or haven't thought of, or have yet to think of) has happened, hasn't happened, will happen, or is happening right now.


Hell, that means, even in some instances of a reality somewhere along the infinite dimensions, you (literally) are the DOOM marine yourself, fighting the hordes of demons on mars and in hell.

I've always used that logic as a measurement of my own personal success actually. Sure, I might not be doing the very best in life, but somewhere out there, there's other me's doing far worse. Course, that mean's there's other me's out there doing far better (and always better than the current best), and there's some realities where I don't even exist at all.


I know, everyones probably like "Well, thanks Buckshot, I feel a little dumber after reading that", but as crazy as that sounds... that's exactly what science implies (theoretically, anyways)

[Zed]

Buckshot said:

What if, you played a game, and the moment you die... that's it. game over. can never have a second chance, can never player again. Game suddenly erases itself from whatever existence you've installed it on, and you lose $60. Seems a little more intriguing and intimidating, doesn't it? To die permanently... Much more rewarding to make it through.

I think that could only work with very simple/easy games. But the thing is, if you can make it to the finish in your first try, maybe it would be rather boring. And if you can't make it, and you don't get another try, then what? Go play something else? Either way, I don't think that's a good idea.

[Buckshot]

Zed said:

I think that could only work with very simple/easy games. But the thing is, if you can make it to the finish in your first try, maybe it would be rather boring. And if you can't make it, and you don't get another try, then what? Go play something else? Either way, I don't think that's a good idea.

I think this is why D&D was always so appealing to me. Make too many mistakes (or one big one), and it's over. Gotta start from scratch, under a entirely new story.


And thinking back to 'Masters of DOOM' between Romero & Carmack's D&D story; where Romero gets too ahead of himself, makes a mad dash for the all-powerful daikatana, yet unleashing forces that end the universe in the process which cause complete destruction of the decade-long campaign that Carmack had created (and bringing it to an abrupt and permanent end), Romero is left sitting there in utter shock and disbelief that everything they had worked to build, all the great times and all that effort... lost in one moment of error and over-confidence. Very punishing, and very damning.

I love games like that.

[SavageCorona]

Maes said:

That made me think deeper...when YOU, as in, REALLY YOU, die, then "your" Doomguy also dies for good. Except in preserved LMPs, that is. Kinda creepy if you think about it...

Bruh

[Face23785]

LanHikariDS said:

It's been a while since I read it, so I should flip through it again, but as I recall, at the end of the "Knee Deep in the Dead" Novel, this is addressed.

Spoiler

As I remember it, it said that after Flynn and Arlene defeated the Spider Mastermind, and they looked to the spacious void, they saw ships coming from where they were, going towards Earth.

I do believe you're remembering that wrong. They don't see ships, they see nuclear explosions across the planet and Fly realizes the invasion has already happened. They do use a ship themselves, that they PERSONALLY built, like true badasses to get back to Earth.

Keep in mind, you never actually see him die. Obviously that's done on purpose to leave the details of exactly what happened up to the player (which I think is a great storytelling device that more games should use instead of force feeding the entire story to us - that's the difference between a game and a movie, a game is by default more interactive, so let us be involved in deciding the direction of the story). I will point out, if you enter the Gate with full armor and health, you can kill all the demons before the screen fades out. The damaging floor continues to damage you, but what if Doomguy after killing all the demons manages to find a way out of the room? Yes I know, there are no secrets in this part of the map. But I think we'd all agree Doomguy is more badass than any of us. Perhaps he's able to find secrets that none of us can find. He loses his weapons and a lot of health, but he survives, finds a pistol and some medikits on Deimos, and you pick up the story at that point.

The view that it's all a dream or nightmare from that point on is not very plausible. Dreams/nightmares don't normally tend to stick to reality. Since the game plays exactly the same way after the Gate as it does before the Gate, I'd say this indicates it's not a dream or nightmare. The angle that he died and the rest of the game is his personal Hell is more realistic. I prefer the view that he survived the trap, he's just that damn good.

[Maes]

Face23785 said:

Keep in mind, you never actually see him die. Obviously that's done on purpose to leave the details of exactly what happened up to the player

I always believed that with "death exits", the player actually undergoes a controlled death, rather than being killed in a fight. The purpose is so that his body (and soul, ofc) can travel to some other domain/plane of existence, but he will still retain control/consciousness, rather than becoming yet another tortured soul in Hell (whether he actually is that anyway, is another matter).

It's more like a transmogrification, from the realm of the living, into that of the not-so-quite-dead, from which he will eventually return (?).

[geekmarine]

I see one of two possibilities. One is that he can technically die, but as he's literally been to Hell and back, if he ever were to die, he could simply fight his way back to the land of the living again. In that sense, he could only really "die" if he simply chose to stop fighting and accept his fate. Alternatively, he could have actually died at the end of Episode 1, and everything following is simply his own personal hell. He is given the illusion that he can fight back, but no matter what he does, the outcome is the same - there are always more demons to fight, more invasions to stop, etc., so that he may never rest. If that's the case, he never fought his way out, Earth was merely an illusion, and he accomplished nothing. If that is the case, he never won, he never really saved Earth, and his battle will never end unless he simply chooses to stop fighting, which he never will. Sort of like Sisyphus, he is given this small hope that he may one day be successful, but no matter what he does, there will always be a new threat for him to face.

Personally, I like to go with option 1, but that's just my take.

[Fonze]

geekmarine said:

I see one of two possibilities. One is that he can technically die, but as he's literally been to Hell and back, if he ever were to die, he could simply fight his way back to the land of the living again. In that sense, he could only really "die" if he simply chose to stop fighting and accept his fate. Alternatively, he could have actually died at the end of Episode 1, and everything following is simply his own personal hell. He is given the illusion that he can fight back, but no matter what he does, the outcome is the same - there are always more demons to fight, more invasions to stop, etc., so that he may never rest. If that's the case, he never fought his way out, Earth was merely an illusion, and he accomplished nothing. If that is the case, he never won, he never really saved Earth, and his battle will never end unless he simply chooses to stop fighting, which he never will. Sort of like Sisyphus, he is given this small hope that he may one day be successful, but no matter what he does, there will always be a new threat for him to face.

Personally, I like to go with option 1, but that's just my take.

100% agree.