TNT Revilution: Final release now on ID Games!

[dobu gabu maru]

rdwpa said:

Are the limits really annoying? I have never worked on a vanilla map and having to deal with visplanes is a big reason why.

Varies from person to person. My biggest issue is that all the little details I add bite me in the ass later, and since I don't like compromising my vision (as pretentious as that sounds) I often stumble upon unexpected visplane errors from certain angles or doorways that I have to solve in convoluted ways. I think the vanilla limits are a cool restriction that gets you thinking about mapping in an unexpected way—like where you can use walls to break line of sight and how splitting sectors with trimming can be really costly—but the worst issue is that you wind up spending a lot of time making sure the map doesn't break instead of simply mapping. At least that's what it's like for me... IIRC AD hates the drawseg limit more.

I'd consider giving it a shot just to see what the restrictions are like, and to ascertain a greater appreciation for vanilla mapsets. At first the limits don't seem too bad, but once you start expanding your room layouts are when all the problems arise.

[AD_79]

dobu gabu maru said:

At least that's what it's like for me... IIRC AD hates the drawseg limit more.

I was just going to post about this, haha. Yeah, for me the drawseg limit gets in the way much more often than the visplane limit, though the latter does give me the occasional annoying problem. It definitely varies based on the mapper's style and how they go about their mapping.

[gaspe]

While working for the TNT sequels (it was the first time I mapped for vanilla) I learned that the limits actually are really generous if you manage well your stuff and I didn't find difficult to stay under them. Also for me the seg limit is the one that gives me more problems.

[Xaser]

Heh. I know all the limits inside and out, in theory, and I always find ways of hitting them still. It's a fraggin' curse.

[purist]

I don't usually have too much trouble with visplanes unless I'm making a very open level as I don't use much detail anyway. I do sometimes hit seg limits, which I think cause HOMS? Anyway when I do I don't notice anything wrong in game so I have sometimes ignored them.

[valkiriforce]

For some reason the textures GATE_SK1-3 are causing Chocolate Doom to crash; anyone know why this would happen?

Also here's a WIP screenie because I promised one:

[Steve D]

dobu gabu maru said:

Also a little teaser for MAP05:

Hmmm, that looks familiar. ;)

I'm guessing maybe you're opening a path to the blood river area?

Which reminds me, I agreed with Gaspe when he said some of the big rooms in Map04 looked a bit bare. I was really tired towards the end of that map with checking again and again in CRL for problems. Like you and others have said, it's mostly seg limits that kill me. For example, in the room where you get the Backpack and it opens a Revvie trap plus a path to the room with 3 pumps, I spent days on that sucker cutting down all the original detail, and you can still get an HOM looking through the fence from the secret area, towards the 3-pump room, but you have to be in just the right place, so we let it slide.

The upshot being that I was gonna say, wouldn't it be cool if Dobu or tourniquet took a whack at detailing this map? ;)

BTW, because I design room-by-room and put the monsters in more or less right away, testing in CRL means I have to start in God Mode with full ammo in order to clear the monsters and observe the map in peace.

Like you, I'm not eager to work on another vanilla project. Funny, back in the good old low detail vanilla days, we seldom worried about it. I hardly ever hit the limits, even through 1999. Sigh.

[Steve D]

Just wanted to say that I'm back at work on Map16 and it's going well so far. I might post a screenie a bit later.

[Steve D]

JDoyle said:

Finished versions of Crawl and Neato:

Very nice work. I picked Crawl for Map16. I hope I can live up to it.

Do you do ambient and industrial by any chance?

[dobu gabu maru]

SteveD said:

Like you, I'm not eager to work on another vanilla project. Funny, back in the good old low detail vanilla days, we seldom worried about it. I hardly ever hit the limits, even through 1999. Sigh.

I can see that. Times change, development has expanded, and standards have risen. The current trend makes mapping a lot harder, but we're producing better quality content... that's the hope at least :P

Also I'm not necessarily against detailing/spiffying up maps for this project, though like I said, I have to get through my assignments before I think about helping anywhere else.

[plums]

Just felt like poking my head in here, saw this:

valkiriforce said:

For some reason the textures GATE_SK1-3 are causing Chocolate Doom to crash; anyone know why this would happen?

Are you using them as a mid texture on a 2s line? They're made up of more than 1 patch in the current resource wad, which makes them a no-go for a vanilla 2s midtex. (Actually I think this is only a problem when the texture has more than 1 patch vertically; things like long multi-patch skies should be OK.) Maybe someone could change that in the resource wad if it was important for you?

[valkiriforce]

No, I didn't use it as a midtex - it was used on a lower ledge of a platform. I later tested it on a plain 1-sided wall and it still crashed. I guess it could be for the reason you stated though; it's just a no-go for being patched twice vertically or something.

[dobu gabu maru]

I can confirm that I used GATE_SK1 as an upper texture today and it crashed ChocoDoom when I looked at it. Definitely needs a fix, since it's a nice texture too.

[plums]

Ohh maybe it's because there are flats named GATE_SK1/2 as well? Try renaming those in the texture pack and see if it works. fix below!

edit: I can't remember whether you can't have flats with the same name as patches, or textures, or both, but in any case here's a list of conflicts.

flats with the same name as patches:

GATE_SK1
GATE_SK2
ROCKGRN
ROCKGRY

flats with the same name as textures:

COMPTAN1
COMPTAN2
GATE_SK1
GATE_SK2
LITERED1
ROCKGRN
ROCKGRY
SILVER1
SILVER2
SILVER3
SILVER4

[kuchitsu]

Even DOOM2.WAD has textures and flats of the same name (STEP-something).

[plums]

Oh yeah :)

In that case here's a fix: 4 patches renamed to GATESK01, GATESK02, ROCKGREN, ROCKGREY appropriately, with TEXTURE1 and PNAMES entries updated. So you should be able to use this without changing any texture of flat names in your map.

If it doesn't work or I borked something up, sorry!

http://www.mediafire.com/download/d2hmppsc3b30nmx/RevilutionTextures_p1.zip

[Steve D]

dobu gabu maru said:

I can see that. Times change, development has expanded, and standards have risen. The current trend makes mapping a lot harder, but we're producing better quality content... that's the hope at least :P

Also I'm not necessarily against detailing/spiffying up maps for this project, though like I said, I have to get through my assignments before I think about helping anywhere else.

I hear ya on all fronts, Dobu. I'm currently doing a casual playthrough of BTSX E1, which may be my fave megawad ever. You might call it the Fava Beans of megawads, because while it's fairly easy, even on UV pistol start -- but much harder than Fava Beans! :D -- the action is still good enough to keep my attention, while the beauty and atmosphere is what really wins me over.

Speaking of beauty, when I saw that you were opening Map 05 from the ending of my Map04 -- assuming that's what I saw ;) -- I actually thought at first that maybe you were just detailing the map. When it comes to mapping, I'm fairly confident in my ability to make stressy fights, and maps that look pretty good, but I can't do what you and tourniquet are ninja warriors at, which is to create beautiful maps. Natch, Ribbiks and essel fall into that category, too. And when I watched that Suitepee mapping session and saw what you did with his map, I thought, "Ooooooh, I want me summa dat!" :) The day will come, Dobu, I'm sure of it, even if it doesn't come now. ;) I reckon I'll just have to suck it up and see how many more segs I can squeeze from some of those blandish areas. I'll admit I was kinda traumatized by using CRL so much, so I sorta gave up, but I'm refreshed now.

[baja blast rd.]

dobu gabu maru said:

I can see that. Times change, development has expanded, and standards have risen. The current trend makes mapping a lot harder, but we're producing better quality content... that's the hope at least :P

Also I'm not necessarily against detailing/spiffying up maps for this project, though like I said, I have to get through my assignments before I think about helping anywhere else.

Yeah man, it's kind of amazing how much better mapping has gotten. I said this elsewhere, but I can download a random map in W&M (Boom format or lower, I can't speak for (G)ZDoom maps, since I really haven't played a lot of them) and it'll usually be at least passable, whereas there really are a lot of clunkers in the community mapsets of yesteryear.

[dobu gabu maru]

^ Yup, the Community Chest series is an exemplary indicator of how far we've come IMO. Some may lament the apparent standardization, but ingenuity is not valuable in a vacuum; there must be some level of refinement and restraint to make good ideas flourish. I think that's something a lot of mappers nowadays—at least those contributing to big-name community projects—understand well.

SteveD said:

The day will come, Dobu, I'm sure of it, even if it doesn't come now.

Thanks—I just want to clarify that your maps look great on their own, and I think the majority of the TNT:R maps look perfectly fine as is. Perhaps tourny may agree with me that being an unapologetic stickler for involved architecture feels most often like a curse at times :P Occasionally I wish I had the skill set of some of the other mappers on here, but hell, we all get envious now and then. Plus competition helps breed better art!

[JDoyle]

SteveD said:

Very nice work. I picked Crawl for Map16. I hope I can live up to it.

Do you do ambient and industrial by any chance?

Thank you! I'm really happy you'll be using it, especially considering what an Osiris fan you are. I haven't really released much music on my own since the late 90's, mostly I've played in rock bands. The stuff I have done has maybe some ambient and industrial influences, but I definitely wouldn't classify it as such.

[Steve D]

Finally uploading a couple screenies of Map16. As you can "see," it's a really dark room. ;) Goes with the music. I'll try designing the map in such a way that this bigass room can be completely removed if the overall result is deemed too large.

[Jaws In Space]

JDoyle said:

Finished versions of Crawl and Neato:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B79YBwbj0yrTZ2dqVTRWS0ZhWmM

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B79YBwbj0yrTeVhwUV9DQmpEcWM

Cool these sound great, I'll get these updated midi's into Revilution ASAP. Also I'm assuming that you didn't notice, but I am using the midi REQ-JD10 for map 23, so when ever you have the free time I'd like to have the finished version of that midi up as well.

As for everyone else my computer is now completely fixed & and once I catch up with things over the weekend I will once again start pestering you all to hurry up & make your maps :)

[valkiriforce]

The good news is I'm practically finished with my map - I just need to work out the thing placement and add secrets and test it out plenty.

[Jaws In Space]

valkiriforce said:

The good news is I'm practically finished with my map - I just need to work out the thing placement and add secrets and test it out plenty.

Good to hear, I've also finally been able to add you updated map 31 into the wad you sent me in April. Once you finish up map 24 I'll post the updated wad in the OP along with the fixed texture pack from plums, thanks for doing that by the way.

[dobu gabu maru]

Almost done with MAP22! Only one more area to add at the bottom right. I'm keeping it under 200 monsters and making sure action stays fast. Really proud of the secrets I've added in here. Also Jaws, I'm gonna change the name to "Pharaoh's Claim", as "Inner Fear" isn't evocative of anything special.

[Gez]

Inner Fearaoh

No wait, this isn't the terrible horrible awful pun thread

[Jaws In Space]

sounds like fun Dobu & the name change is fine.

[valkiriforce]

Finished testing my MAP24 and sent it to Jaws In Space; I forgot to mention I'd like for my map to be called Redrum (bonus points if the letters are written backwards, that would be major awesome) and hopefully it's not too big of a map, as I got a little carried away with it.

[dobu gabu maru]

Question:



When I run this area in choco doom, the midtex (SUPPMM2N) appears as a some kind of black+purple striped error. Any idea why that is/how to fix it?

[Jaws In Space]

plums said:

Are you using them as a mid texture on a 2s line? They're made up of more than 1 patch in the current resource wad, which makes them a no-go for a vanilla 2s midtex. (Actually I think this is only a problem when the texture has more than 1 patch vertically; things like long multi-patch skies should be OK.) Maybe someone could change that in the resource wad if it was important for you?

Try this Fixed texture pack