TNT Revilution: Final release now on ID Games!

[Jaws In Space]

T-Rex said:

I want to check, doesn't PRCP use Plutonia.wad as its base? I could have sworn it does, but my memory's a little fuzzy as it's been ages since I've played PRCP, so I don't know if it does or just uses Doom2.wad. I think Devilution is going to use TNT.wad, just like how Plutonia 2 used Plutonia.wad, so if Revilution is the PRCP of TNT, you might as well follow what the PRCP team did to keep it consistent with the parallels.

I don't consider Revilution to be the PRCP of TNT, I believe that PRCP came about because it's map authors felt that Plutonia 2 strayed too far away from what Plutonia was, whereas Revilution pretty much has the same ideals as Devilution as far as I am aware. Either way I have no intention to associate Revilution with PRCP & to help avert this parallel I had decided awhile back that the final filename for Revilution will not be titled TRCP, it's going to be titled TNTR or TNT-R. Also I'm not going to change my stance on using Doom2.wad either, deal with it.

Gez said:

If you dump Lithosphere, will Convilution get two Lithospheres?

I've been mulling about how I want to handle Convilution for awhile now, I won't touch the project at all until after Devilution is released. I want to see if they have any more rejected maps that they will give to Convilution & also so that we can use their custom textures.

There's two ways I can approach Convilution, one is to take a dedicated approach & attempt to "fix" as many of the maps as possible by heavily editing every single map in there to my quality standards. I'm actually very against this approach, mostly because I'm kinda done with TNT projects for awhile, I wouldn't have the passion for it & I want to put most of my effort toward a Perdition's Gate fan project. The second way I could approach Convilution is to take a much more lax approach & just release the damned thing when there are 32 maps, which isn't too far off. This sounds like a much better idea to me, simply because I wouldn't have to do much work other than some bug testing & compiling, & this approach would result in a wad much closer to what Kyka & Ragnor had originally envisioned for Revilution in the first place. Also since since Convilution isn't exactly the most inviting of titles, I will probably end up changing the name of the project to TNT:Infinity as a slight reverence to Eternal Doom which has the large complex maps that inspired Kyka in addition to TNT's own Drake O'Brien maps.

Edit: ugh, fixed horrible writing because of tiredness.

[TMD]

Did somebody ask for a baby sized quarryesque map!?

[Jaws In Space]

TheMionicDonut said:

Did somebody ask for a baby sized quarryesque map!?

If you have one I'll take a look at it, but we do have a surplus of high quality E3 maps at the moment.

Also I can't help but laugh at the fact that we are getting all these map offers after we have already gone into beta.

[Tristan]

From TNT2, no less :P

[Steve D]

Given that the usual work pressures that force me into DWMC fails happened yet again, I figured I might make myself useful by testing some revised maps. In this case, I tested Gothic's Map10 revisions, and . . .

. . . they really don't work for me. Monster count has risen fromm 300 to 343 as per GZDoom, and the cavern fights at the end have turned from a walk-in-the-park to a remarkably lethal slaughtery kind of thing that I found to be unfun.

Gothic put 3 Mancs at the bottom of the initial drop-off into the caves. Playing on GZDoom, I was able to fly over their heads most of the time, but this should be extremely uncomfortable for players using infinite height since they'll likely be forced to land in front of them, at which point getting around those bad boys is a real hassle because their hitboxes take up almost all the space available. The inner caves have a bunch of Cacos as before, but there are now about 25 Spectres as well, completely invisible even in GZDoom thanks to brightness set at 112. Given that the RL is the natural weapon to use against Mancs and Cacos, you have that taken away from you by the Spectres. IMO, this makes the battle unfun because you have no idea how many Spectres there are, where they are coming from, or any way to strategize on when you can unleash the RL. Using the SSG is too slow and I ran into many instances where a single shot failed to kill a Spectre and where I was flanked and paralyzed by more before I could get another shot off. I died 5 times in this battle before I decided to try the Tyson approach with the goal of eliminating the Spectres first. This worked on the first try, but RNG must have liked me, and besides, Tyson is easier on GZDoom than PrBoom because you get a lot more 1-punch kills.

Once I eliminated the Spectres, I was able to rocket the Mancs and several Cacos, which brings up another problem -- with the Backpack in a secret room, I ran out of ammo for both the RL and CG and ended-up killing the last batch of Cacos with SSG. There's more bullet ammo scattered about -- in the dark -- and I was able to tank up again, but it reveals a problem in ammo management that became critical later.

The RK battle now warps in a shit-ton of monsters, including Barons that soak up a lot of ammo, and FIVE Archies. You have a ton of rockets, but that's a poor weapon with Lost Souls everywhere. You can try provoking infights in all the corridors leading towards you, but with Revvie homing rockets coming from 5 directions, plus the Lost Souls and then the Archie LOS attacks, I decided to run away instead. I don't inherently enjoy fleeing a major battle, but this battle begged for an energy weapon. Unfortunately, all the PGs and the BFG on this map are multiplayer-only.

I ran into another ammo problem at the exit thanks to the Pain Elemental. I literally emptied the SSG and Chaingun on all the Cacos and Lost Souls and had nothing but rockets for the exit reveal. That should be okay, actually, but I died and decided not to do anymore testing.

I like hard fights, but these encounters seem really awkward to me. The mix of monsters makes RL use potentially suicidal, the lack of a PG or BFG encourages flight from a battle with too many Archies -- though I admit I could have tried chokepointing them somewhere -- and the positioning of the PE at the end creates an ammo-starvation issue in an area where, yet again, rocket use is a terrible idea. I'm generally not a fan of encounter design that punishes using your preferred weapon, so that's why these encounters were, for me, frustrating and even dull. A PG would encourage pistol-starters to be more aggressive -- continuers will already have it -- while still facing a rather significant challenge against the Archies and the ammo-sponge Barons. I think the Mancs at the bottom of the initial drop-off are a bad idea. They shoulkd either be moved or eliminated. I also think the Backpack should be a gimme somewhere in the map, before you reach the caves. This will help prevent complete loss of shells and bullets at the exit.

It will be interesting to see what others think of these fights. There are different ways to go. The big cave fights could be based on Mancs and Cacos, and maybe Imps replacing the Spectres. It could be an all-Spectre battle that favors Tysoning, or maybe Cacos and Revvies.

The map still has some texture alignment issues in the ice-cream cones and even up above with a Metal1 texture.

Prior to the caves, the map was much as I remembered it -- very good-looking, IMO, with remarkably easy combat and some tricky pathing. It was the easiness overall that made the new cave section seem like something from another mapper. I wouldn't mind seeing the bulk of the map toughened up some, while at the same time reducing the number of Imp ledge-snipers that mainly just slow things down. Maybe reduce their numbers and toss some barrels up there as well.

[TMD]

Jaws In Space said:

If you have one I'll take a look at it, but we do have a surplus of high quality E3 maps at the moment.

Also I can't help but laugh at the fact that we are getting all these map offers after we have already gone into beta.

If you are good, you are good.

I just heard some secondhand grumbling.

[Jaws In Space]

Okay so the club is done playing through Revilution. There's more than enough feedback to go off of, so get to work making changes to your maps. Everyone has until March 31st to update their maps, that's one month from now, if you don't make that deadline your map doesn't get updated. Revilution will be uploaded to the archive on April 1st so get moving.

[Benjogami]

Jaws In Space said:

Revilution will be uploaded to the archive on April 1st so get moving.

hah, good one

[Tarnsman]

Uploading it 1 day after the deadline is a horrible idea and is asking to put a bugged release on idgames. Give it at least a week or two to be tested less you end up like BTSX.

[dobu gabu maru]

^ Ditto. Once all maps are finally collected we need at least a handful of players to replay the wad and make sure nothing is busted.

Here are my updates. I included one new texture. Also Jaws, I could take a look at MAP29 and rework it if you want.

[cannonball]

I know this would probably be a no, but given that Europa is out (So 32 is open), then maybe putting Duality in that slot which would leave the question of Lithosphere and Tarnsman's map. I would suggest leaving Lithosphere where it is albeit possibly tweaking the map to make it more engaging and put Tarnsman's map into slot 29, not too long but pretty hard so it wouldn't be a bad candidate.

[Jaws In Space]

dobu gabu maru said:

Also Jaws, I could take a look at MAP29 and rework it if you want.

If you think that you can improve it the latest update to the map is in the OP.

[Xaser]

Arbitrary release dates are poor motivators. This declaration translates to "I'm going to upload this to /idgames with avoidable mistakes still in the wad."

[baja blast rd.]

SteveD said:

[map10 stuff]

Haha, you had me really scared when I was playing this. Three of the five archviles are multiplayer-only.

Would move back the mancs 128 units or so. It's always possible for monsters like this to attack immediately, and since they see you while you are still in the air that is even more likely. Two+ mancs firing as your feet hit the ground would be somewhat unfair.

Had a lot of fun with the RK fight, was looking very dangerous at first but then I chickened out and ran back to the drop-off point. :D

[dobu gabu maru]

cannonball said:

I know this would probably be a no, but given that Europa is out (So 32 is open), then maybe putting Duality in that slot which would leave the question of Lithosphere and Tarnsman's map.

It's definitely a good idea to keep in mind, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a new MAP32 personally.

Also I took a peek at the Convilution version of MAP29 just to see if there was anything else worth salvaging from it, and hoo boy that is some map. For funsies I did some calculations to find what the average monster per map in each megawad was (in their current version):

TNT: 152
Revilution: 210
Convilution: 370
Maps in Convilution with Kyka's name attached:

Spoiler

drumroll please

Spoiler

490

Reminder TNT maxed out with Mount Pain at 332 monsters.

Anyway, I'll get to work on MAP29 hopefully this weekend—got a few ideas rolling around in my head already.

[Tristan]

heh dobu, I actually already calculated that average a couple of years ago - it was the basis for me going to Kyka and telling him every map was just too much. MAP02 took over 20 minutes and MAP03 had about 400 monsters.

[Pinchy]

Here's an update with fixes noted in Dobus Feedback.

The Superweapon Facility V0.99

[Jaws In Space]

I've got confirmation of updates for every map except from Phobus & Eradrop. I'll wait a few more days for Eradrop, but since Phobus has been pretty inactive lately, I will make changes to his map myself.

[Steve D]

^^Phobus is currently serving in the British Army. Probably won't be hearing much from him for awhile, so good call, Jaws. ;)

I'll be putting my maps through the Choco grinder within the next week, and then getting the revisions done. I'll try to crash Choco with both of them. I sort of pray that 14 will survive instead of crashing above the Plasma Gun like last time, but I have ideas about what to do if it doesn't.

[Steve D]

rdwpa said:

Haha, you had me really scared when I was playing this. Three of the five archviles are multiplayer-only.

Oops! I should have looked harder at the map. :D

Thanks for giving this a spin. I was hoping someone would give it a go to see if they had a countering opinion, especially if they typically play on an infinite height port.

You and Magnus were the only ones who posted your secret count in the thread, and you both got 100%. I know that the only secret I missed in Rev10 was the Backpack. I watched your casual FDA of the original and soon realized that Gothic swapped the Backpack and Zerk secrets in the new version, because I got the Zerk. IMO, that was a really bad move because the Backpack is vital for mere mortals like myself who cannot match your skill. I obviously needed the Zerk in order to defeat the cave Spectres expeditiously, so I'm saying that for players at my skill level the Zerk and Backpack are both necessary and should not be secrets. It's the same logic I used for Blood Factory when it was suggested I put the Bacpack where the cavern Soulsphere secret is, but because of the high monster density, it's vital for ordinary combat. So it had to be a gimme.

I still think the 25 Spectres is a bad idea after giving the player the RL. The original fight didn't have them. I don't recall anyone asking for them, only for more Archies and other mid-tiers. Magnus asked for a Cyb. I'm glad Gothic didn't take him up on that. ;D

I decided to open the save I made just before getting the red key. First, I got the Backpack, then came back and fought the battle. I died 3 times, mainly because I had trouble separating the Archies and PEs. Which brings up another reason for the Backpack as a gimme -- with Archies rezzing and PEs spitting, your enemy count goes up unpredictably if you can't use rockets to melt your way through any wall of meat protecting the Archies quickly enough. You can always try to lure the meat hordes down the tunnels in order to get them away from the rocket stash, but if that doesn't go well, you might be screwed.

So my suggestions remain;
1. Turn Backpack and Zerk into accessible items rather than secrets
2. Move or eliminate the cavern Mancs
3. Consider eliminating the cavern Spectres because they serve as a species of Rocket Launcher trolling. If they are eliminated, consider replacing them with a smaller number of Revvies, maybe 6.

[FearTheReaper]

For me this is exactly like TNT continuation: inconsistent, with themes that represent best and (that is questionable in terms of quality but some are trademark of specific Evilution atmosphere) eclectic, very personal devised vision of adventure through pseudo-realistic themes leading to half-confusing final maps. This is it, no flatness, no tuned down levels in fear of being less pleasant, without flaws of original, all the strengths. You can doubt if it's enough TNTish but unlike Plutonia, Evilution never had distinct one single style and many people remember it differently for what is worth, so if you fear that you failed at recreating this specific something, you didn't failed, essence is definitely there without its past flaws, all other is subjective, after all you can't please everyone's perception or memories of things. ;p

[Tristan]

I'm pulling Frozen Wilderness from the project.

[gaspe]

I accidentally replied in the old formus so I'm reposting this. I made an update to my map, with some small changes based on the feedback received by the Megawad Club. Overall health and ammo should be a bit more loose especially on lower difficulty levels now. The biggest change is in the cyberdemon battle: the secret invul was replaced by a megasphere on easy and a mega armor on medium/hard, and the teleporting monsters aren't hitscanners anymore. For the new midi I choose Grandfather Clocktower. Also I noticed that the wfall and sladrip textures don't animate anymore as they used to do before the beta.

[Gothic]

Update to map10

• Adressed most of the complains by SteveD
• The backpack secret was removed, and it's now accesible before entering the cave
• A new secret at the cave entrance was added

Download

[Jaws In Space]

Oh god I made it, thought I was going to be the only person on old Doomworld. Anyways I've got your updates Gothic & gaspe.

[hawkwind]

I miss the old forum. Anyway, map 5 sector 386 has a skywall issue in R3D. Can be reworked to fix without changing visuals.

 

Also, map 8 sector 163 has the monsters stuck into each other, and line 1503 needs an X align fix.

Edited March 15, 2017 by hawkwind

[cannonball]

Given a lot of the feedback for Map07, I decided to try and up the ante a little bit whilst trying to add some visual polish to the map as well. Here is the result. At the very least to lessen the impression that this map is fillerish compared to some of the other maps in the first episode.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ebuc7yn2t6vlk3d/nmsv6.wad

 

So I redesigned the start area to removing the odd bug which was present, added a bit more threat from some turret sergeants (zombiemen on lower difficulties). The co-op lost souls are now in single player with cacos placed for co-op plus a couple of evil chaingunners. 

The south east wing was edited slightly to allow for another mancubus at a different angle to slightly increase the difficulty here. 

The monsters in a couple of monster closets have been edited, again increasing the difficulty slightly.

Northern outdoor area has been redesigned mostly for aesthetics but one caco has been replaced by a revenant by the switch to access the red key.

Lastly, the music has been changed to Target NeuTralised by Bucket upon request by Jaws who wasn't keen on the previous track.

 

I don't intend to make any more edits to map25, but if there are things people want changed I will consider it at the very least.

Edited March 16, 2017 by cannonball

[Jaws In Space]

Anyone know how to fix all of the visual bugs on the Cyberdemon platforms in Map 21?

 

Edit: Nevermind. Seriously though vanilla Doom bugs can be pieces of shit sometimes.

 

Edited March 26, 2017 by Jaws In Space

[Jaws In Space]

Did you notice that it's the 30th today?

[Tristan]

I also noticed the map32 theme is still in the project despite the op having seemingly changed since..

again, please remove it, I like lithosphere but I don't want an ice-themed midi going to a lava-based map.