TNT Revilution: Final release now on ID Games!

[tourniquet]

Here you go, 11 with changes according to the club and more MP Rads. Should be final, hopefully.

[Gothic]

Update

-Cyberdemon and red pillars removed

Download

[dobu gabu maru]

Jaws In Space said:

Map 6: Outside of general lack of interest for the map, which there can't be too much done about that, the only issue people had was the Arch-Vile in one of the exterior environments. Personally I think that he's fine, but if anyone else thinks he should be removed or stay as is let me know.

I did a few minor tweaks to this map already—like having the colored area doors stay open when you hit the PG/RL switch—and I definitely want to swap the AV out for another monster, since he's not really too effective (and very spongy). After MAP22 feedback is finished, I'll provide you with a single update to all my maps like before.

[Jaws In Space]

dobu gabu maru said:

I did a few minor tweaks to this map already—like having the colored area doors stay open when you hit the PG/RL switch—and I definitely want to swap the AV out for another monster, since he's not really too effective (and very spongy). After MAP22 feedback is finished, I'll provide you with a single update to all my maps like before.

Just to be sure, that includes map 8 as well?

[dobu gabu maru]

Yes: MAP06, MAP08, MAP12, MAP16, MAP22

[Jaws In Space]

I'm pulling Europa from the project, I'm not happy with the current state of the map & there's so much work that needs to be done to the gameplay to make the map actually fun to play. I don't want to spend any more time working on Europa any more, maybe it'll be finished sometime in the far future, but for now consider it abandon. No this isn't up for debate. No I don't want anyone else fixing the map for me.

[Tristan]

Interesting, what does this mean for the 32 slot?

[dobu gabu maru]

Sad to hear; I like the map and disagree with the decision, but I'm also not in your position nor do I have your history with it. I just hope it shows up somewhere else eventually.

[Tarnsman]

Want another map?

[Jaws In Space]

Tarnsman said:

Want another map?

Yeah, that would appreciated.

[Alfonzo]

"The man kneels and places his ear to the ground. Through it he can hear something moving, turning, the unmistakable surge of a tremendous force; a force through which the world has come to know true fear and motivation. It is the fabled Tarnsflood, a torrent of sentient map-making that engulfs the meek and spares only the righteous and objectively correct. It knows not how to halt or consider. It does not hold audience to your pleas. It cannot be bought. It does not recognize your sovereignty. It only completes at a terrifying pace, leaving nothing in its wake but the sopping sadness of the unprepared...

When you open the gates, be ready to receive the water."

—The Annals of Doomtwid, 2013

[Gothic]

I hope the texture animations will get fixed for the final version, they're currently broken on Doom II.

[rehelekretep]

got a 'no more visplanes' error on map03 while approaching here in chocdoom:

[StalkerZHS]

Yeah, I always wanted something more Carribean-like for map 32, maybe name it "The Bahamas" or something. Carribean is my absolute fav map of TNT.

[Steve D]

rehelekretep said:

got a 'no more visplanes' error on map03 while approaching here in chocdoom:

I had a feeling something like that would happen. Lots of seg violations in this map, but it survived the limited Choco test I gave it. And of course, I crashed Choco with a visplane error on Map14, when performing radical dodging on the platform above the Plasma Gun, even though that area passed a fairly hardcore CRL check. So as I said before, we have to actually play these maps in Choco because we can't rely on CRL. I'll do mine. Other mappers can do theirs, and the rest we can assign to various individuals. I'm willing to do several.

BTW, I'm really bummed about that crash on Map14. I don't want to reduce any more structure in that room, which would mean I have to put the secret Plasma Gun somewhere else. This completes my day of Mapper Whining, after my megapost in the DWMC thread. ;D

[Jaws In Space]

SteveD said:

A couple questions for you guys. Should I add a second access to the secret port area, perhaps from The Tunnel of Vanilla Limits? Or should I maybe make that part of the regular map flow by keying the door behind where you spawn in? Magnus said people might be underwhelmed by the map if they miss those areas, and it seems like Pete definitely was, so IMO it's worth considering. However, keep in mind that I create these secret chains, and the big areas and fights they contain, for 2 reasons. First, Toxin Refinery is hugely influential to me. I loved the secret chains in that map. As rdwpa correctly surmised, the secret hunting is meant to be an end in itself. Hunting for the joy of hunting. The second reason is that it's also bonus content. These areas are not just rooms with goodies, they are whole new areas to fight in, and typically create interconnections in my maps. Although I would like for players to find and enjoy these areas, I also get a kick when someone finishes my maps with 80% kills or less. For some players, this gives replay value.

I don't think you should add an alternate route into the secret area. One thing that I would like to see changed is having the yellow bars removed from the exit switch, I like the idea of being able to bypass the yellow key entirely in order to reach the exit.

[Steve D]

Jaws In Space said:

I don't think you should add an alternate route into the secret area. One thing that I would like to see changed is having the yellow bars removed from the exit switch, I like the idea of being able to bypass the yellow key entirely in order to reach the exit.

That's an intriguing idea. It might also be possible to add a BK or something inside the secret area, so that there are 2 bars at the exit, but you only need to raise 1 to access the switch. Backtracking has been a common complaint, so either approach would solve the problem.

[baja blast rd.]

Some thoughts on map17 (I'll write these up more thoroughly in the DWMC thread):

I liked this map on balance. A fun freeform running start in the caves around the player start, and fun ending fights. But I thought the action behind the door in front of the RL was kind of meh. I visited this after handling the red key side, which seems to be the intended progression. It's basically a corridor clear-out, then some clean-up of mostly static ledge monsters, and then a tussle with a pretty strange cyberdemon. The cyber finds it hard to leave the room its in because of the narrow door + pillars, and you can just retreat at will, so it's not really a threating or exciting fight. The map also ends on a spiderdemon, a decent use of it I might add (except for it getting killed by pinkies sometimes unfortunately), so it's like, why does the map even need the cyber. It's the mapset's first non-secret cyberdemon, bit it feels like a random throwaway.

I guess it might play out a lot better if the player heads that way first and encounters it when they have basically no ammo to kill it, but idk, doesn't seem like enough for it.

[Jaws In Space]

A rough update to map 15. Quite a few changes were made to the map.

-The yellow key building was mostly removed
-The secret exit was moved due to drawseg issues
-A few fences were moved around to keep the player out of some areas that caused drawsegs. I think I got them all, but the north end of the map may still have some problems.
-The yellow key was moved & you now only need the yellow key to exit the map
-(hopefully) I cleaned up the progression a bit by redirecting some teleporters & removing some extra steps to get to the exit
-I removed a lot of the outside hitscanners & moved a few other monsters around as well

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7fyhzfao3ta9j70/Map%2015.wad?dl=1

[valkiriforce]

Updated 31 to include a more distinguished curve in difficulty settings: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9quw96dn7hl4vt8/TNTR_31.wad?dl=0

[EDIT] Also a quick fix was made to address the multiplayer issue I posted about previously in this thread.

[Tristan]

The second part of the TNS playthrough is postponed until stuff with MAP26 and 32 is sorted.

[dobu gabu maru]

Jaws In Space said:

A rough update to map 15.

This map plays significantly better because the player has a lot of opportunities to explore since they're not locked down inside the central complex—good work! I also approve with ditching the YK building, as it felt extremely noobish and added no gameplay value—its new spot is pretty good. Spotted a couple of minor bugs:

- Linedef switch 2003 still requires a blue key to activate it.
- The (non-secret) exit "door" sector 81 is actually a floor that lowers and you have the W1 triggers marked for a door.
- Sector 80/168 need to be joined
- The dobwire fence (linedef 843) is actually sunken into the ground and needs to be pulled up.
- Thing 318 is still floating out in the nether :P

And here's some gameplay changes I'd advise:

- I really think the invisibility sphere behind the AV should be an SSG, because he can create some nasty chaos if the player is only armed with the SG to take him down, considering how many enemies get woken up if you fire in that hallway.
- That blur sphere could be moved to sector 155, placed right under thing 505.
- I think you should place a rocket launcher at sector 374, as there's really no "reward" currently up there.
- I have no idea why the rev in the western structure (Thing 403) is both deaf and facing away from the player... he looks kinda silly :P
- The new AV battle is pretty swell, but I think the green armor there should be swapped out with a soulsphere, especially since both blue armors should be able to last the player the duration of the map (you could delete those two medikits in the back if you do that)
- When the player jumps into the teleporter out of the quad-AV battle, have them emerge at sector 337 so they can clearly see the exit has opened.
- I'd also recommend reinstating the switch that opens up the exit to the quad-AV battle back, as it's kinda silly how easy it is to escape that fight. One switch should be all that's needed, maybe at linedef 1615 or something. That, or the entire building needs to be rotated and moved a bit to allow the AVs to follow the player through the exit portal.
- Minor adjustments, but Thing 408 should be deleted and Thing 76 should be a box of rockets.

The map is definitely moving in the right direction—I like your little secret exit dome.

[Steve D]

Just a quick note that I'm making some changes to Jaws' Map15. Looks like he moved the secret exit building, which misaligned a bunch of lights and computer consoles. Then I aligned them, which misaligned all the teleports in and around that building. :D Sector 80 needed to be rebuilt. The walking triggers for the normal exit failed to work because it seemed the door has been turned into a floor/ceiling thingie that would need a Lower Floor trigger instead of a Door Open Stay. The secret Plasma Gun is inaccessible because the trigger line that lowered the crate wall was removed along with the teleporter out where the Tower Baron used to be. I plan to fix that, too, plus implement Dobu changes. So hopefully Jaws hasn't already done all that. ;D

BTW, I hate that Archie on the nukage platform. Maybe we should remove it? It's a PITA to get a long range LOS attack out there. Seems cheap.

[Jaws In Space]

SteveD said:

So hopefully Jaws hasn't already done all that. ;D

I've got some bad news for ya.

[Steve D]

Here's my version: http://www.mediafire.com/file/b7i75kcci2weczp/Map15d.wad

I can see what happened with the normal exit. You re-purposed the switch that originally opened it to opening the secret door, and shifted the normal exit to the walkover lines in front of the teleport in the AV building, but those were door triggers, and the exit "door" was actually a lowering floor, which is why it never opened. The secret exit opened fine, though, and I really like what you did with it. Anyway, I changed the normal exit to a door so it now works with the walkover triggers. The door texture might need some aligning, though.

The Sector 80 problem was what I call a "ghost sector" issue. On the map you see a single sector, but one side is 80 and the other is 168. I noticed while playing that the lighting was really weird in that area. Once I hit the Make Sector button, everything was fixed and the lighting was fine, and the whole sector is now Sector 80.

Aside from yanking the secret exit building and various parts until it all lined up, the major thing I did was put in a switch to open the crate containing the secret Plasma Gun. Working against the spirit of this map, I put the switch right next to the crate and used a texture offset to mark the secret door. This is quite different from the original distant teleporter and the usual "What did that switch do?" nature of this map. The switch is located in Sector 416 if you feel like emulating it.

I really like the way everything in the central building works out, but I'm still at best indifferent to everything outside the main building. I don't think the fights are fun, and the weird progression, despite being nicely streamlined, is just not my thing, so, as we often said in the Navy, "That sounds like a personal problem to me." :D

Use my version as you wish. :)

[Steve D]

One more thing -- when I did the version for B4, along with removing the Archie out way beyond the map, I removed all the other teleporting monsters around him. I thought they were all associated with the red key, but after taking another look, it seems they -- and the Archie -- came in for the fight at the normal exit. Aside from providing resistance, they helped to show where the exit was. Removing them was just your average, everyday Mapper Derp. :D Might be a good idea to put them back in.

[dobu gabu maru]

^ Just wanted to point out for B4 that my changes aren't implemented :P

[Steve D]

dobu gabu maru said:

^ Just wanted to point out for B4 that my changes aren't implemented :P

B4 came out awhile ago, and only contains my first batch of revisions. Weren't your original suggestions in there, too? I thought Jaws chopped out those fences in the nukage that you had pointed out.

[dobu gabu maru]

SteveD said:

B4 came out awhile ago, and only contains my first batch of revisions. Weren't your original suggestions in there, too? I thought Jaws chopped out those fences in the nukage that you had pointed out.

Look 7 posts up :P

[Steve D]

dobu gabu maru said:

Look 7 posts up :P

Ah, those are your new suggestions, not your old suggestions that led to the B3 changes, where I mostly implemented the Jaws guidelines, and then, IIRC, Jaws included some of your changes before the actual B3 came out. As for B4, I made a B4 awhile ago, editing in B3 itself rather than a copy of Map15, and mostly just dealt with the Archie that never teleported in, and got rid of all the teleport closets out there, which I now see as a mistake. You probably never saw that B4, since IIRC only me and Jaws had it.

Looking at the new B4, I see that Jaws fixed everything I fixed except for the secret Plasma Gun (Tag 37), which is still inaccessible. My solution gives the alert player the PG early, which might be nice before players go out and face the nukage Archie, who's still there. Natch, Jaws can put it wherever he wants or even get rid of it, but because it's in a crate that opens, it's a kinda cool secret, which is another reason I put the switch right next to it, because watching the crate open is fun.

I'd have implemented your new changes on the next iteration, Dobu, I swear.