The DWmegawad Club plays: Hell Revealed

[baja blast rd.]

I already played that ASS, and I guarantee that it's infinitely more fun than Bloodstain or something people are actually going to pick.

Your pairing seems fine. Just as long as we avoid one of the Overrated Dull Megawads. E.g. I'm glad you said Hell Ground instead of Hellbound.

[mouldy]

MAP23 - "Ascending to the Stars" by Yonatan Donner

Well now, theres a lot to say about this one. To start with we have the sea of imps, which I'm assuming is meant to be run past since killing them all with a shotgun would be insanely dull. This leads to a room that will murder you if you stay in it, so grab the plasma and keep running. Then we get a room that will murder you if you stay in it, so grab the rocket launcher and keep running. Then we get a room that will murder you if you stay in it, but oh wait you have to stay in this one. So after running the previous gauntlet using either some autistic super powers or just doing it over and over until you are lucky, you have an arena of mancs all shooting at you. If you manage not to get flame grilled then you can start thining them out, and by the time you finish they have probably killed the mastermind.

Next we have a large room which has what i later discovered to be a regenerating cyber turret, surrounded by a literal wall of barons that you get to circle around for 5 minutes while carnage ensues. After clearing those guys away there is a choice of teleports, neither of which are very friendly. The archvile one can be dealt with easily and stupidly by continuously teleporting in and out while shooting. The other one lowers you into a pit of chaingunners which I honestly had no idea how to deal with. Only after scouring the rest of the map did I find a secret blue armour which allowed me to survive. From there things got easier, and the next few rooms didn't even kill me. But then came the final room with the archviles. I've banged my head against this map previously, so I had a general idea of how to get through each section, but this room I still have no idea. The only way I could find was to try shooting them all from the doorway, twitching left and right to try and avoid their fire. By this point I was down to shells and bullets, so laborious isnt even the word for it. I just watched a speedrun of this map on youtube and it is the most tedious exercise imaginable: open door, shoot once or twice, teleport out, teleport back, open door, shoot once or twice, etc for eternity. Was that really the intended method?

I actually like this map, despite the torturous navigation and exacting methods it requires. The visuals look like someone made some effort at last, and the setpieces are pretty memorable. Just could have done with being a bit more fun though in places, that last bit especially. It almost feels like the author just chucked all those viles in and said "right, lets see if anyone can get through that."

[gaspe]

>>>> Hellcore 2.0 + Enigma + Bloody Steel <<<<

or

ALT

Also it would be cool to play some more partial/total conversion stuff:
Osiris + Temple of the Lizard Men 1 or 2 + Brotherhood of Ruin

[vdgg]

I just read hruvlmps.txt. In May 1997 there was released a collection of demos (.lmps) and Yonatan Donner himself participated and wrote comments. Some funnier excerpts:

Yonatan Donner - MAP05
Some people think it's too complex, I find it very simple though. I take the
plasmagun here in the easiest way, thanks to John Keniry for the idea. I
designed it to be taken in another way, but this is easier.

(He goes for the plasma grab, fails, and then takes it by jumping from the descending platform, I don't get it, the text doesn't quite match the demo...)

Peo Sjoblom - MAP12
I really like the part where (I think
there are 9) some Barons come out from the marble walls one after another
and you only have the time for maximum 4 ssg shots before getting attacked
by the next..

Yonatan Donner - MAP15
This is the first lmp of a hard level which I recorded with the mouse, I
switched from keyboard control shortly before it.

[gaspe]

MAP24 - Post Mortem

Kills: 88% | Items: 76% | Secrets: 16%

Here's a map which is in the middle of a chain of levels inspired The Living End. I remember that I struggled a lot the first time I played. But this time after some years of getting more experience with other wads it was more manageable. At the start I thought that I could dance near the pillars and kill all the revs but the swarm of cacos ruined my projects. So I jumped down in the blood and started to clear what I could from there. Picking the BFG seems vital for this level. After the place starts to get less populated it isn't hard to progress. I would have killed all the monsters but I gave up when I saw the 2nd swarm of pain elementals.
Another really hard level that makes you feel exposed everywhere, especially in the early phases.

[Naan]

Unfortunately this time I fell off the club this time due to time constraints, but I feel many later levels would take me much time to beat them.

MAP14 looked like the mapper's take on Downtown, and was an appropriate challenge on HMP with pistol start unlike the previous, that was too hard on UV and too easy on HMP. From what I sense when warping to next levels, UV is back to being completable on pistol start afterwards. Oh, and I just beat tomorrow's map (MAP25) on first try.

I'm still wondering why some people call Hell Revealed being much outdated. I mean, some maps in TVR! that the club played a couple months ago were a notch lower in visual quality than the average HR map.

As for the next mapset(s) to be played I'll just follow what the Club will pick up. But what's an overrated megawad anyway?

[T-Rex]

This is it, it's now or never. Time to take on the next map.

Map24: Post Mortem (Yonatan Donner)
100% kills, 100% items, 100% secrets
Time: 18:36

The big one, the mother of all Living End-style maps, the main highlight of Hell Revealed and the most difficult in the entire mapset. It is the pinnacle of difficult here. You thought Mostly Harmful, Hard Attack, Resistance if Futile, and Ascending to the Stars were hard? They're nothing compared to Post Mortem. Imagine Doom 2's The Living End, Memento Mori's Diehard, and Plutonia's The Final Frontier and Anti-Christ, all mashed together, then triple the amount of enemies. The result is this map. In spite of being a little bit smaller than Map23 in size, it is a beast in the sense that it's got the highest monster count in the entire megawad, pain elemental lost soul spawns and arch-vile resurrections notwithstanding. Every bit of this map is dangerous, virtually almost no safe spots. As soon as you hit the switch, you better start firing your BFG just before you are greeted with the revenants and dodge carefully and quickly as you have revenants firing at you from the ledges, arachnotrons from the east side, and barons and hell knights (possibly arch-viles on UV) from the north, not to mention the cacodemons so watch your rocket launcher as you're firing at all the enemies. Hit the switch to raise the bridge for the teleporters, clear out the enemies, then jump down to the right side for the radiation, because to the east is a cavern in the rock formation next to the teleporters at the north island, and inside is an invulnerability (secret area), which you need to obtain and hurry to a teleporter to take you back to the start as reaching the two teleporters reveals a cyberdemon. Take him out with the BFG while the invulnerability lasts, then take the left teleporter for the blue key. I would also suggest to face the southeast corner of the fenced island and take pot-shots at the arch-viles as doing so will make things easier once you take the right teleporter which takes you to the spot where they are. Making your way up past the demons, take out all the arch-viles from the distance, then pot-shots at the more arch-viles behind cages, and finally BFG the cyberdemon. Now before going inside the blue door, if the spider mastermind from afar is still alive, you could attempt to have her see you and attack you so once you open the door, she hits the cyberdemon and they'll infight. That way you can take out the cyberdemon while he's distracted and hit the switch that will raise another bridge in the starting area which leads to the red key, guarded by imps, caged arch-viles, and another spider mastermind. Now after you obtain the red key, go back to the teleporter island, take the right one, make your way up to where you killed the arch-viles and cyberdemon, then take the teleporter there which will take you to the red switch. You have to take out the cyberdemon guarding the switch that activates the stairs to another switch which raises the bridge to the south of the starting point. Have your BFG ready to get rid of the arch-viles on the bridge and another cyberdemon guarding one more switch which raises the bridge to the end at the east of the starting point. Make sure you go down into the harmful blood again, grab a radiation suit, and make it all the way to the east because hidden behind the east island is an invulnerability which you'll need to eliminate the cyberdemons at the end. This is the toughest map in all of Hell Revealed. You have to play smart, use the terrain to your advantage, and know where and when the enemies will be in order to get past it. Luckily, there's a lot of rocket and cell ammo, so you'll never run short with your BFG and rocket launcher. Finding the secrets will require you to jump into the harmful blood, and you'll even need to take out the teleporting mancubi in order to access two of the secrets. To anyone playing this map on UV and on vanilla, good luck, because you cannot save at all due to the vast number of enemies (nearly 600 in total). A true slaughtermap. Despite the difficulty, it is actually a lot of fun, and the architecture and geometry really is top notch, very Casali-like, especially when you take note of how some of the columns, fences surrounding some islands, switch walls, and the overall layout seems to be lifted from Plutonia's Map27 Anti-Christ. If you can get past this map, everything else is all gravy.

I said quite a mouthful here, but that's pretty much a testament to how difficult this map is. I had quite a ball with it, though. Maybe I might attempt HR in UV, who knows, but I think I'll stick with HMP for all those difficult wads like Plutonia, Alien Vendetta, and this one. Gonna take a well-deserved break, so until next time, I'll see you in the next couple of maps. Take care everyone. As for nominating another mapset, I'll skip that, don't really have any picks in mind.

[Ponqo]

joe-ilya said:

you can quicksave on vanilla doom by pressing f6 and quickload with f9

[Demon of the Well]

Map 23 -- Ascending to the Stars - 101% Kills / 100% Secrets
The HR take on an 'adventure map', perhaps. Here we are presented with a (mostly) linear key-hunt through a bright and tidy starbase of some description, with different sections of the complex framed as having specific functions within the greater tableau, most notably the radiation-soaked engineering conduit known as "Blue Sector." This degree of representationalism in theme and aesthetic is rather off-type for Yonatan (perhaps less so for Haggay), but ironically it suits certain of his mapping tendencies rather well. Of all of his late/newer maps in Hell Revealed, this is the one that deviates the most from the open warzone pattern ala maps like 22, 24, 25, and so on, having more in common with the room-by-room/hall-by-hall layout style of his earlier maps, although the overall mapflow is probably closer to Haggay's m21 than anything else (i.e. a linear 'column' plan with some staggered warps back to earlier ares).

The difference in impression between those earlier maps and this one is, to say the least, "pronounced", with each area having a distinct look and identity that for the most part still fits comfortably within the greater setting. I've described a lot of the HR maps as "simplistic and clean" in appearance (or as "practical", in those cases where more euphemism seemed in order ;) ), but this one I might go so far as to describe as "polished", with more of an eye for functionally superfluous aesthetic niceties throughout than we've seen thus far (center machinery in exit room, scrolling belt-fluorescent cut-ins in RK room, use of custom laser assets instead of stock midtex in some places, etc.), as well as Yonatan's generally tasteful use of understated directional lighting. What's particularly striking to me here is that Yonatan is still using quite a lot of texture variety in this one (whereas the warzone maps are generally better served by a simple/coherent scheme), but in the context of actually having a specific setting he's working towards, it looks infinitely better to the eye than the eclectic jumble of his older maps. The very first area, for example, uses blue, red, black, grey, and silver all together (and a big unruly splotch of brown if you count the droves of imps), but I think it's quite attractive, with each texture assigned a structural role. Through the conceit of showing different areas of the base, Donner is able to use a lot of different textures and colors in a lot of different ways here without breaking theme, though of course some areas are a little more 'whimsical' than others (e.g. the juxtaposition of laser beams and modwall with ancient marble slabs in the spider terminal). The end result is a map that, in the absence of any strongly themed/gimmicky progression (ala maps 15, 16, 26, etc.) still carries a definite sense of place, a rare virtue in this mapset. Arguably a candidate for most visually pleasing map in the set as well, though I myself tend to prefer 26 as far as that goes.

All the talk about the lovely wallpaper and futuristic lampshades and the like aside, though, I still compared this to some of set's weaker/older maps in general aspect (shuddup dobu 21 is fun), which I suppose requires some qualification. Well, all in all, despite the similar linear room-by-room flow, I think this map is generally better than its older siblings. Not without issues, mind you, but better. The key here, I think, is that while the older maps tended to have a lot of filler areas--the quasi-maze hallways and the like we'd see all over the place that were doubtlessly borne of Yonatan not knowing any other way to connect the discrete boxes containing his actual ideas, you know--this one doesn't suffer that way, the value of experience, perhaps. Here, each room or area has a definite and distinct gameplay idea to it that separates it from the others, will very little corridor-janitoring filling space between concepts. Of these, I have always been most partial to the opening imp-avalanche vignette (which can be charged through or fought straight, each requiring a different sort of precision) and to the little fuck-you ambush at the top of the lift in the YK chamber (good way to discourage camping in that case), but each is memorable in its own way, with "Blue Sector" again being particularly notable as a rare example where the pressure elides more from the environment than from the creatures. It's not all smiles and sunshine, though; the linear room/door/room construction means that some ideas inevitably pan out better than others. The vast majority of speed demos, for instance, largely decline to respect the RK room at all, doing a quick lap to get infighting going and then largely ignoring the whole scenario, only returning later for cleanup. The worst offender, though, is surely the teleporter/focus-point setup at the yellow door--getting ganked by the three viles behind you there when you first teleport in could perhaps be forgiven as 90s chic/cheek (and they don't take long to kill), but the exit room fight, which essentially requires repeatedly 'porting in and out to take potshots for approximately 547 years, is frankly idiotic, and I've no interest in making excuses for it.

In all, a mixed bag, but I think most players will find it more amenable than a lot of the earlier stuff.

[Budoka]

Cynical said:

If you want Vanguard, how about grouping it with Hell Ground and Bloody Steel?

Two of my biggest favorites and one unknown? I vote this. Awkward as playing in windowed mode while intermittently losing control of the game might be, you haven't seen the last of me if these get picked.

@rdwpa: "e.g." is example. "i.e." is "meaning".

MAP24:Post-Mortem

Ah, the infamous one. I can't beat this on Ultra-Violence. Like, I just can't, so I did it on HMP. Although to be honest, my ITYTD playthrough of this way back when felt like much more of an accomplishment in comparison, probably because I had played so few Pwads in general. Anyway, I always enjoy this map as long as I'm not on UV and can actually take control of the level space.

Not that the UV version is unfair, in fact to some people it's not even that much of a challenge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDcF9SoGCNc

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP24 Post Mortem

Knowledge of secrets and where everything is helps out greatly, as I know where the invulnerabilites are, I go nuts with them when I can. Like Resistance is Futile, Post Mortem has inspired a ton of levels after it, such as AV's Dark Dome, due to its "Living End gone horribly slaughtered up" ordeal. most of the secrets require me to head into the damaging blood, they're worth it though. other highlights: the blue key cage, the archies to the west of that, the imp mosh pit right by the exit that usually gets attacked by the cyber there, and worst of all, the pain elementals and mancubi. The mancubi just don't stop teleporting in, which makes them a huge interference and the real low point of the map for me. I just can't stand killing an enemy only for a new one to spawn in place thenafter. and on this map, it never seems to end! goddamnit. Oh well, still a great map.

[Paul977]

MAP24 Post Mortem

I heard about this as the hardest of the wad and I understood why: hundreds of tought monsters to kill from damaging floor with few radiation suits.
Past some time (hours) trying to going forward leaving some monsters alive and that is probably the mistake: you have to kill everything, mostly in the start area where most of the ammo/health is located.
After a lot of tries I got bored and used the arch-vile shortcut way to reach the exit. Still don't get why the hardest map is placed on level 24, place it at least on 28-29, bah.
One day when I'll have some spare time I'll try to do the uv max but for now, good bye!

[antares031]

MAP25 - Dead Progressive
ZDoom, UV - Pistol Start, KIS(%): 100/86/100

Despite the fact that the last level was difficult to beat, this level is super-easy compare to the other levels from this episode. Once you find a right spot to hide 'n shoot, you won't have much trouble with arachnotrons and other monsters. There are even teleporters to help you escape from nasty situation. The only problem I had was a blue key trap with chaingunners. Keep in mind that those steel bars will block the projectiles, such as plasma shots, so grab your chaingun to survive from that trap. But still, It was nice to rest my brain from the previous level.

And yes, we already hit the 25th of this month. So here's my suggestion for the next month.

Spoiler

Alien Vendetta

[Cynical]

IMO, Post Mortem is the second-best in HR, and another absolute classic. It's also the direct inspiration for that wad I have sitting unfinished on my hard drive.

Unlike most of HR, you really do have to be somewhat methodical about this one. You can (and should) blitz the start, leveraging one of the Invulns to grab the BFG, but once you've accomplished that, you really do need to kill most everything. Unlike most of the others, this one generally punishes you harshly for leaving stuff alive; crossing that bridge with the three Cyberdemons still alive is going to be rough, you'll want that safe-spot in the center when you go into the setpiece on the Western side, trying to do much of anything without taking out those Cacodemons is basically untenable, etc.

Back when I was working on that now-cancelled map, I was discussing with some other folks here the differences between Post Mortem and the maps that it inspired, but I think the *biggest* difference is how much it emphasizes the bridge play. Hard Target lets you juts blitz the setpieces that branch directly off of the floor, and Dark Dome's combat is concentrated on its bottom floor, but PM forces you to traverse the bridges, and, indeed, the height differences are pronounced enough that it's the most efficient way of taking out the snipers on a lot of the towers. It's true that you'll need to drop into the blood at times (the waves of flyers pretty much demand it, and you'll need those Invulns anyways), but it's never as safe to drop into the lowest level here as it is in the maps that it inspired (HT gives you basically infinite radsuits in your mostly-safe zone, DD doesn't have a poisonous floor at all), which means that, in effect, you have much less comfortable dodging than you do in any of its successors. Its setpieces continue this trend, and are, again, more dangerous than the ones in HT or DD; little cover, little room, and some *really* spiteful Cyberdemon and Arch-Vile placement (HT's tribute to the Cyberdemon/Arch-Vile encounter by the blue door is a perfect example of this, given how softballed it is compared to the original).

All in all, it's a mean bastard of a level, but a fun and satisfying one. The next map is a really fun break map; enjoy it while you can, because Afterlife isn't much easier than Post Mortem...

[joe-ilya]

24

Same as MAP16 of hell revealed 1, only 5x more monsters and less radiation suits and a BFG to make the map funner.

When you know the AV jump and where the invulnerability is you can beat this in under a minute.

3/5

[dobu gabu maru]

MAP24: This wasn’t as frightening as I thought it was gonna be. True—it’s probably the hardest map in the set—but it rewards patience surprisingly often, whereas the first time I played it I just wanted to get out ASAP (mainly due to losing the reigns on the Pain Elementals). The most important thing to do is to gather your weapons and then head down into the bloody nukage to pick up some radsuits, familiarizing yourself with the area and taking out those pesky archviles. Once you nab the BFG the odds swing in your favor considerably, as cyberdemons no longer pose that great of a threat. Ammo is very plentiful but you’re likely to use it up in certain places, meaning you need to keep an eye on where you’re replacing your stock and how best to get there.

I think this is a memorable map for a very good reason. At first it seems impossible but it favors speed and carnage, really pushing you to play it as wisely and carefully as you can. The only downside to the map is that some of the AV/rev platforms are too high up so targeting them can be exceptionally awkward (though Cynical makes a good point about the bridges) and the invisible bridge—while novel—obstructs gameplay a bit, but besides that it’s a pretty fun experience. I was efficient enough that I didn’t even need to use my last invul sphere for the final battle, though I ducked out of that melee pretty quickly. Definitely holds up for a slaughtermap even by today’s standards.

My favorite map in Hell Revealed, and it’s likely to remain that way—an all around gutsy challenge in an austere arena that asks players to prove their mettle.

[mouldy]

MAP24 - "Post Mortem" by Yonatan Donner

This is a classic, feels like a full day's work to get through it though. Perhaps the hardest part is getting a foothold at the beginning. There are so many options its bewildering, but there is literally no place to stop and have a breather, thats something I find I really appreciate in modern takes on this theme, at least providing a safe corner to stop and get your bearings. Everywhere that isn't covered by enemy fire is painful in some other way, the floor is damaging and there is a swarm of cacos chasing you. Priority seems to be taking care of those tomatoes, which isn't helped by an invisible wall under a bridge. That really is a criminal design flaw in a map like this, where jumping down into the pit is unavoidable and constant movement is required. Once the cacos are out of the way its a case of methodically clearing things out and hoping that you don't run out of rad suits. Its a fun map, giving you all the tools you need while applying a constant pressure, either from harrassing fire or dwindling supplies. Less fun is the occasional burst of pain elementals, and the regenerating manc turrets are a bit cheap. There are points where you stop and think shit, now what? But even at the darkest hour I could manage to scrape some progress together, finding a forgotten rad suit or a stash of ammo, or just a place to stand still without getting hammmered by anything.

[baja blast rd.]

Budoka said:

@rdwpa: "e.g." is example. "i.e." is "meaning".

Is this a joke? I know what they mean. And actually, 'i.e.' should be treated as comparable to something like 'that is' or 'in other words'. The abbreviation 'viz.' is closer in function to 'meaning'.

Your pairing seems fine. Just as long as we avoid one of the Overrated Dull Megawads. E.g. I'm glad you said Hell Ground instead of Hellbound.

Doesn't make any sense to put "that is" there because that idea is clearly subordinate to the second sentence's. Thank you and have a nice day, sir.

Anyway, I second Cynical's suggestion (wink yeah let's just consider his post a vote wink).

[Ribbiks]

dobu gabu maru said:

(Also I forgot about that one elevator that drops you into a circle of chaingunners—I mean, really?!!)

just posting to add some appreciation for this. I remember laughing my ass off the first time I died there.

[gaspe]

MAP25 - Dead Progressive

Kills: 91% | Items: 53% | Secrets: 0%

After 2 hard maps its nice to have something short. At first I didn't realized that I had to look for the cental pillar. The map seems to make you run around into the courtyard and getting exposed from more parts. The twin teleports to reach the opposite corners were useful. The only thing that bothered me was that I had to press the switch with the blue markers before getting the key. The trap at the blue key was bastard in the right measure. Fun stuff overall.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 24 -- Post Mortem - 102% Kills / 100% Secrets
Unarguably the most infamous map in Hell Revealed, and arguably its greatest challenge as well (I happen to agree in this case, I'd consider map 32 to be something of a paper tiger, and 26 is only really rough until you understand how it's supposed to flow), Post Mortem is the big celebrity not only for this mapset, but, to a generation of Doomers, also the posterchild for murderously difficult action and seemingly insurmountable odds, something that left an indelible mark on what it means to be a 'hard' map moving forwards, almost certainly more than any other single map in the set. Fitting that you can see some history in action here....many people make the inevitable comparison to "The Living End", although I think "Anti-Christ" is probably more on-point in this case (more immediate exchange between 'islands', plus fenced arena-island is a dead giveaway), though the gameplay here is so far beyond the pale of what its structurally/thematically similar predecessors attempt that it really does stand in a class of its own. Or it did, anyway, until its progeny began appearing....there have been many sequels or homages to this map over the years, some obscure and some just as widely renowned as Post Mortem itself ("Dark Dome" from Alien Vendetta being my personal favorite of these), and after a point the form became its own instantly recognizable template, entries in which we still occasionally see to this day.

If all the babbling I've been doing about how important tactics and planning are in this mapset hasn't sunk in yet, a proper playthrough of this ought to do the trick; you really can't expect to 'just wing it' and come out on top here (although depending on your personal attitude towards dying, you can have quite a lot of entertainment in trying different things, due to the map's largely open 'warzone' plan). Like its mapset cohorts, Post Mortem is all about gaining momentum and strategically taking advantage of resources and terrain to clear out a deeply entrenched and extremely powerful enemy force, but what makes it so singularly vicious is that, moreso than any other map in the set, it tries to decisively snuff you out before you ever really get started. There is no thoughtful prelude to the action where you weigh your options and make an educated guess here, no initial safe zone you can retreat to to collect your wits mid-engagement, and not a complementary full arsenal to work with from the outset (although you can get one very quickly once you've learned the map); instead you are immediately under extreme pressure from all sides, where any pretenses of courage or machismo or stylistic flair will simply see you killed outright. No, it's down into the blood with you, chop-chop, whether you're Joe Average or the Grand Arch-Magus of idtech1 himself. Though there are several radsuits about, your stay down here absolutely cannot be indefinite, because there are swarms of cacodemons coming after you and you lack both the munitions and the vantage to really make any one part of the upper levels 'safe' before you run out of radsuits (and spending them all too early in the map can make life more difficult later on as well, of course). You've got to think on your feet, make tough decisions and take big risks to make progress, and for the vast majority of players this is going to involve a lot of trial and error as you gradually piece together some semblance of a plan. Area denial up top is extreme, and only through a combination of gradually softening key strongholds (esp. around the center of the map, where so many of your supplies are found) and constant situational awareness can you hope to make headway.

It's the full consummation of the 'zone of influence' play concept, something that not only tasks you with putting together a battle plan to use given resources and territory smartly and strategically gain control over the map, but also demands that you fight tooth and nail to even earn a meager platform you can start to expand from. Like most maps of this general type, its potential threat is somewhat frontloaded, but unlike in many of the other HR maps the mere happenstance of you managing to gain a good bit of momentum doesn't mean you can afford to get cocky--really brutal deployment of several strains of your demonic nemeses at various key progression points means the tide can turn disastrously against you at any moment, where all it takes is one successful arch-vile attack to hurl you into the drink or into a really bad neighborhood you've not softened yet, or one of the big pain elemental squadrons (which are arguably the map's signature) getting out of hand to put a serious damper on your resources and maneuverability. So, as Cynical says, this is a map where's not much room for cutting corners--you really do need to exterminate the vast majority of the monsters, or your sloth will come back to bite you in the ass at some point. To me, this is the other facet of the map's tour de force of the ZoI style--here, it's not just you that can take advantage of tricky angles and clever positioning, the hellspawn have a lot of opportunities to do it too. To certain temperaments I imagine this probably makes the map even more of a backbreaking slog than earlier, more cut-and-dry entries, but if you're on its wavelength it really starts to feel like something epic by the end; the bit with the endless army of nobles and mancubi pouring across the newly-formed bridge to the final island is something I'm particularly fond of. Granted, this is probably because I know the trick here is to use a V-sphere to plow through them and hit the switch to unleash the final bevvy of cyberdemons into their midst (which results in tremendous casualties for both sides of the equation), but hey, I have been saying all along that you really reap the rewards for doing your homework and putting together a neat plan in these maps, haven't I? ;)

This is one for the ages. I am generally of the opinion that trying to draw rigid causal chains concretely attributing particular styles/examples of mapping to other, earlier styles/examples of mapping (which in turn inevitably ends up with some really specious investment in the IWADs of ideas which simply weren't there) is an ill-fated and misguided endeavor, but I do believe that "Post Mortem", along with a select few of HR's other crown jewels, has had a notable impact on the face of PWADing through time, if not for what they represent conceptually than for what they meant ( and maybe still mean) to a lot of contemporary players and designers viscerally. It ain't my favorite map in this set, truth be told, but I know it's one I'll remember until my death or until the ravages of time turn my brain to oatmeal, whichever comes first.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP25 Dead Progressive

one of the easier levels, since you're given a BFG right away and a lot of enemies die in quick order. the central column has the switches to continue the map, but the triggers are strange. like for the first one you have to go near that duplex teleporter near the water, and the second one in only one of the revenant closets. the third one appears right after the second is pressed, and the fourth is after entering only one of the cyber closets, again. that fourth one is also a blue switch but you have to press it anyways to lower that teleporter, even though it leads to the blue key. That blue key trap is quite stupid if you ask me, and I even skipped it by inching towards the key. and a spiderdemon right after the blue switch is pressed along with the arch-vile, yeah, not bothering.

[Cynical]

Demon of the Well said:

26 is only really rough until you understand how it's supposed to flow

Huh, I'm curious to see what you have to say on that one. The central area of Afterlife is simple enough, but those side arenas give me hell. The "black road" I can generally deal with if I'm patient, but if I want to do anything stylish, my consistency plummets, and the green arena just fucks me in the ass, period.

Also, I'm curious, what are some of the "obscure" sequels/homages to Post Mortem?

Getsu Fune said:

MAP25 Dead Progressive

one of the easier levels, since you're given a BFG right away

Not on UV ;-) (Well, it is still one of the easier levels, but you're not given a BFG, I mean).

[antares031]

MAP26 - Afterlife
ZDoom, UV - Pistol Start, KIS(%): 98/84/0

Ah, yes. I was looking forward to play this level, although I wasn't expect that this level has yet another critical flaw with pistol starters; no plasma weapons at all on UV. To begin with, there are lots of monsters in this opened space. So you need to find your safety spot to avoid those fireballs and rockets from everywhere. In my case, I found my safety spot at chessboard room, where also provided me a SSG. After I cleaned the space with my companion cyberdemons(yes, I used them to fight against monsters, including revenants and arch-viles behind the buildings. It took some time, but It was worth it), It's time to hit the teleporters to proceed. The green marble room was okay. The arch-vile placements were not that harsh, although It was really annoying to fight against ghost imps while I didn't have a rocket launcher. It was a little bit tricky, but once again my companion cyberdemon helped me to compel these ghosts. Thanks, buddy. :) The next blue room was not bad, except an arch-vile and a cyberdemon on the floor above. It was unfortunate for me that I didn't have a plasma rifle or even a rocket launcher, so It took me a while to clean the area with SSG and chaingun. The infamous dark room was just a monster infighting simulator, and it was really annoying that I couldn't distinguish the black wall at all. And finally I cleaned that one, now this level had a mercy to provide a rocket launcher...... to deal with another ghost monsters. I managed to kill all of them except some cacodemons since they were hard to hit when they were floating above the sky. In conclusion: I love this level as much as I hate it, and it's one of two favorite levels from this wad, along with MAP24.

[joe-ilya]

25

Harsh map with a nice gimmick and strange progression, the gimmick is to reveal switches on all sides of a central pillar, but it's broken up by having to step into random locations such as specific monster closets and a pillar.
Having to push the blue button twice for two different effects was clever. The only secret is a shotgun and a chaingun on 2 separate yet adjoined pillars and is as useful as an empty secret room.

4/5 for symmetricity.

[Paul977]

MAP25 - Dead Progressive

A walk in the park compared to Post Mortem. Quick good map with a lot of ammo and health: double Cyberdemon and arch-viles teleport gave me no problems; blue key trap was the most difficult part but I manage to finish off all the chaingunners with good life and armor. Map 25 has been the only map of third episode which I finish at the first attempt.

[Budoka]

@rdwpa: fair enough.

MAP25: Dead Progressive

...Get it? Hur dur. This one looks hectic for the standards of the time, but for a Hell Revealed map it's a total breather. Not much to say about the map itself, it plays quite well but the only part that's ever caught my attention is the Chaingunner pincer attack.

A bit of trivia: Yonatan Donner intentionally made this map easier than the rest of E3 and actually held a speedrunning contest on it. He also made a standalone sequel to it, which is of course called "Dead Perfect"(hrb.wad).

[mouldy]

MAP25 - "Dead Progressive" by Yonatan Donner

A bit of a breather map after the last one, nothing here to cause too much trouble, although the rev swarm gave me a few deaths just from being a bit careless. Its a nice arena to fight in, giving a lot of architecture for monsters to filter through, and while the cover can be useful it can also make running backwards away from cyberdemons a bit hazardous. The only misfire was the pinkie swarm which was made harmless by standing on the steps. The mastermind also didn't do much, think there was a bit too many pillars in the way maybe. Good fun though, lots of ammo and guns to play with.

[joe-ilya]

Also a note on MAP25, the teleporter gate is the greatest enemy for your enemies, because you can wander into it when one half is cluttered so they'll wander into the empty side you don't need, so you'll head back into the tele and be able to activate whatever you planned when the half you need is less cluttered.

[Magnusblitz]

Skipping MAP24 for now...

MAP25: Dead Progressive
84% kills, 1/1 secret

Yup, definite breather map here... there's still enough high-tier enemies to mess you up good if you make a mistake, but it's all pretty easy to deal with and there's plenty of cover. I started off clearing everything out a bit at a time, which was actually a bit boring (especially since the monsters on different heights don't infight well). Had more fun once I started just running around unlocking everything at once, though I did exit before bothering to kill it all.