The DWmegawad Club plays: Hell Revealed

[T-Rex]

Pirx said:

btw, i also was unable to start the hr info pack, regardless of compatibility options (i'm on windows 7 pro / 64), but i remember that it ran with win98 on an ancient pc.

Yeah, those infopacks like HR's and MM2's will not run on Windows 2000 or above, as I hear.

[ReFracture]

Where might I find this infopack? I do not see it in the zip for hr from idgames.

edit: disregard found it
https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/themes/hr/hrinfo

I'm currently running it in Windows 3.1 using dosbox.

[Demon of the Well]

Try looking in the "Themes" subdirectory for HR on the archive, pretty sure it's in there, along with a few of the mapset's oldest demo collections.

Edit: Link! Yeah, it's in there.

Edit II: Too slow!

[ReFracture]

I have taken screenshots for every slide in the pack:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/bch64h3cggd7m7r/hrinformationpack.zip

If anybody felt so inclined I think it would be neat to upload that somewhere permanent since the information pack available from idgames is only usable through cumbersome methods such as emulating an old OS.

If nothing else now we have learned that Map27 - Cyberpunk was the last level created for this mapset, and took three months because Haggay Niv was hospitalized for part of that time.

[Budoka]

MAP08 : The Jail

A dull and irritating map with a couple clever moments (mostly the crusher room and the final part). I honestly never look forward to this one. Those playing continuous might notice that there are way more monsters here than you’re given ammo to fight them with. Don’t worry, it will all make sense very soon.

[driftyloon]

MAP08 – The Jail

Secrets: 3/3 Kills: 145/145

Just glancing at the title it is easy to tell what the gimmick of this level is going to be. There is a lot of enemies behind bars. This is nice in moderation but for the whole level it overstays its welcome. Once again there are quite a few barons and pain elemental(gave me heart attack seeing two emerge at the end) and from pistol start, ammo is not in good supply.

[NuMetalManiak]

I got some of those infopacks working in DosBOX, particularly the MM ones. My old XP machine can run HRinfo with it well.

MAP08 The Jail

by far this one screams typical 90's map. very flat, layout is of the kind I see in 90's wads, and the monsters behind the cages is a very minor concept.

[wallabra]

Pirx said:

startan-textured.

Why did you do that shit, Doombuilder? Why?!?

At the time, there wasn't this texture racism, so STARTAN was just a nice texture like any other...

[TheOrganGrinder]

MAP08: The Jail

More classically Doom-like than the spider-shaped gimmickry of the preceding map, this one has a sombre tone set by its muted textures and choice of music. In contrast to the tight, coiled-up construction of some of the earlier levels, this one isn't afraid to sprawl into a jumble of forsaken hallways to nowhere, though I didn't find its bleakness to be quite deliberate and stylish enough to be enthralling. On the other hand, the placement of large numbers of monsters in cages where they can be dashed past is an interesting design choice, even if the map ends suddenly (need to work on signposting those exit switches!) before the reasoning behind and consequences of that choice can be fully explored.

[joe-ilya]

8

Small way to the exit, lots of optional areas, flat but non-linear layout, lots of cages.
I dislike the starting point when it's pistol started, it's impossible to get the shotguns without getting a shotgun burst through your skin or tediously killing the 4 sergants with the pistol. Otherwise it's a fine map even if a little flat.

3/5

[dobu gabu maru]

Demon of the Well said:

That the first several levels of Hell Revealed are fairly 'normal' in pitch is something I recall as being confusing to me back when I first played, but of course as a design decision it makes sense enough [...]

Having played the later levels I can definitely see your point now. I think the first 12 maps felt strange to me because my preconception of HR was "big hordes of meat you circle strafe around", but many of these levels have the earmarks of things to come: congestion, high enemy count per room, route prioritization... though perhaps it's more similar to Scythe than Sunlust, since it does deceive you with a low difficulty curve for E1.

MAP08: Another terrible map. Fighting hitscanners en masse is rarely ever fun (unless there's good cover), and this map seems more than happy to dish the trigger-happy zombies out. I kinda like the sergeants in the prison with the two barons guarding them, but that’s about it—the very next room with the demons patrolling the upper floors was completely pointless. This is yet another map that seems to be consciously wasting my time.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP08: The Jail
99% kills, 0/3 secrets

Not as terrible as I expected, honestly, though that's probably because the way combat unfolded created some interesting moments. Didn't have enough shells to deal with both barons near the start, so had to lure one out before going back into to wrest some shells from the sergeant's corpses. This woke up all the sergeants in the nearby room, and they slowly but surely started streaming out into the rest of the level while I was doing other stuff (like the blue armor area) which led to some fun cat-and-mouse games since I was sitting at like 15 health.

The imp/pinkie room is also an interesting setup, but ultimately pointless since there's nothing at the tops of those lifts. Unfortunately taking them out left me without ammo for much of the rest of the map. There's another completely pointless path and the actual exit path has a completely unmarked, innocuous exit switch, UGH. Was missing one enemy, I assume it was in a secret I couldn't find.

[mouldy]

MAP08 - "The Jail" by Haggay Niv

Its a weird thing I notice with this map, it seems to be attempting to set the scene. There are prison cells and monsters behind bars, and there are even some cosmetic details here and there, but it still feels like it was knocked up in an hour and "that'll do". I wonder if there was a different attitude back then, if maps were harder to make, or if the authors of this set just didn't give a shit how it looks, because its designed for speedrunning. Anyway, I wasn't all that speedy, once I found that crusher I had to lure all the barons to it, even if there was plenty of ammo and it probably would have been quicker to just shoot them. There was a nice little secret I found after getting the computer map, and a lot of imps and pinkies that I left behind.

[Cynical]

mouldy said:

I wonder if there was a different attitude back then, if maps were harder to make, or if the authors of this set just didn't give a shit how it looks, because its designed for speedrunning.

The former. Old-school editors didn't give you a 3D view. All you could see was the automap-like view.

[Paul977]

I join the club since I'm doing an UV playthrough. Last time I played HR was some years ago on UV pistol start and got stucked at level 13 I gived up and passed to another megawad; the thing seems to repeat...
Anyway, Level 8:The Jail:

Not much to say is a simple not bad level, quite easy. The purpose of the big room with demons and imps is to take off your ammo for the next level so better to not fall in this trap.

[VGA]

Can someone start posting demos from MAP09 onwards? I have been watching joe's vids but they are lowres, I want demos so I can watch them on native res.

And I have much better maps to play than these when I play Doom myself, heh!

[gaspe]

MAP09 - Knockout

Kills: 98% | Items: 100% | Secrets: 100%

HR starts to wake up here. It was totally different from when I played this the first time on continuous play. Using the berserk fists will be mandatory many times, ammo is really thight and well guarded by monsters. After I picked the yellow skull I went ahead to the slime tunnel. I was quite desperate to find a chaingun somewhere as I was full of bullets. Going back after I picked the red key I ran out of ammo to open a way through the big horde of imps. I guess that killing the revenants before was a mistake, they would have helped with some infighting. I breezed to the exit as I still had the invulnerability to pick up. The detailing was also better than the previous maps.

[T-Rex]

dobu gabu maru said:

Having played the later levels I can definitely see your point now. I think the first 12 maps felt strange to me because my preconception of HR was "big hordes of meat you circle strafe around", but many of these levels have the earmarks of things to come: congestion, high enemy count per room, route prioritization... though perhaps it's more similar to Scythe than Sunlust, since it does deceive you with a low difficulty curve for E1.

MAP08: Another terrible map. Fighting hitscanners en masse is rarely ever fun (unless there's good cover), and this map seems more than happy to dish the trigger-happy zombies out. I kinda like the sergeants in the prison with the two barons guarding them, but that’s about it—the very next room with the demons patrolling the upper floors was completely pointless. This is yet another map that seems to be consciously wasting my time.

HR isn't all BFGing a bazillion enemies, so take everything you've heard about it with a grain of salt, it's also the use of foreknowledge and planning on using what weaponry you have against the opposition presented. It's much like Scythe in that sense since you have a warm-up episode before facing the real challenge, where it is all the Plutonia style of monster placement, but on a slightly larger scale.

I think Haggay seems to follow more of the Sandy Petersen school of level design, considering that his maps are average-looking at best, and while Yonatan's early maps may are no different, they're at least a bit more presentable in comparison.

[antares031]

MAP09 - Knockout
ZDoom, UV - Pistol Start, KIS(%): 100/100/100

Grab your berserk, and ready to knock them out. This level does not give you any weapons except a shotgun until you reach the red key on UV. And there are more than 300 monsters, most of them are imps. But at least this level has a mercy to provide a plenty of health pack, so don't be afraid to use your fists. About the yellow key trap, you might use the invulnerability powerup after you get a yellow key, but you don't have enough time to deal with those 128 imps. Fortunately, the imps can't use the narrow stairs.

[Budoka]

MAP09: Knockout

It's punching time! A sneak peek of the challenge and quality to come. I enjoy the lighthearted atmosphere of this map, even though it's the hardest one yet. if you play in UV pistol start, then ammo placement is ultra-stingy, you really need to use the fist as much as possible. The puzzle-like progression of the second half is pretty cool too.

[TheOrganGrinder]

MAP09: Knockout

A bigger and punchier map than any that have come before, aesthetically once again perfectly functional but not seeing to evoke any particular atmosphere or sense of place. Resource placement assumes that you'll save 'em for when you need them, and it's definitely possible to run out of recovery options if you're insufficiently thrifty. Overall the feeling is still that we're in the "warming up" phase of progression, but there's at least a sense of what we might be warming up to.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP09 Knockout

Finally, a level that ends up being interesting for once, with a slight berserk gimmick and a few interesting fights. Lots of enemies ensures that one will fight plenty, although I find speedrunning through the level quite fun too. That yellow key ambush is the big highlight with all those imps teleporting, but I ran past that one to save for later, it's tedious waiting for imps to teleport. One thing I found out, in the tech room with the soul spheres, finding the teleporter that sends you to one of them can also take you to the other, if you approach that certain teleporter from a different side.

[antares031]

MAP10 - Chambers of War
ZDoom, UV - Pistol Start, KIS(%): 99/100/100

An enjoyable level with non-linear layout, plenty of supplies to deal with monsters, and even a plasma rifle(finally). But, in my opinion, the architectural design is a little bit boring compare to the other levels. One more minor flaw of this level is that I couldn't find a spectre trapped behind a burning barrel. But hey, "Havana Smooth" is really fantastic soundtrack, don't you think?

[wallabra]

Seriously, where does this bland WAD end?

I stopped at MAP05 because I was done with bland maps...

[joe-ilya]

9

Lame map, all you do is punch-punch, get invulnerability, punch some more, shoot with a shotgun and punch at the same time, only 2 weapons are used through the level.
It's very long but also very short if you choose to make a death exit which is nuts to do.

0/5

[scifista42]

MAP08 - "The Jail" by Haggay Niv

I appreciated that this map indeed depicted a semi-realistic jail, as distinctiveness is one of few redeeming qualities that oldschool maps have. Also that combat and progression were OK this time, as opposed to the previous map (also made by Haggay Niv). It has its uninspired or tedious moments, but it's probably my favorite map so far anyway.

[dobu gabu maru]

T-Rex said:

HR isn't all BFGing a bazillion enemies, so take everything you've heard about it with a grain of salt, [...]

Oh I know. I played through HR originally in 2009/2010 and all I could remember about the set was circle strafing around hordes of enemies, but that's because I was playing through on continuous and had the weapons to do so. It's definitely a bit more "puzzley" on pistol start since you have to often find other ways around the "walls of meat" than just chewing through it. Speaking of...

MAP09: I almost liked this one. Almost. It’s starts off promising—a fistfight with a pack of imps is plenty of fun—but it just gets absurdly stupid at multiple points where you’re forced to guard a choke-point and repetitively punch anything that comes through the door. The most horrendous of which is that ginormous imp warp-in, as I couldn’t find an SSG to aid me during this gauntlet so I just had to run in tiny circles and punch the imps outside of that stupid block monster line (seriously, why are there so many of those?!) Beyond that the map just drags on for too long and didn’t seem to know where it was really going. Blahhhhhhh

[mouldy]

MAP09 - "Knockout" by Yonatan Donner

This one gave me real problems back in the day, my brain could not compute that a map could be played entirely with punching, and I was running out of ammo and thinking wtf? But now its fine, quite fun in fact, but a lot of the fun comes from knowing the layout and traps in advance so you can figure out how best to get through it, otherwise you can end up standing in a corner trying to punch a room full of imps forever. I left a lot of stuff alive I think, choosing to get the red key first and then grab the yellow on the way back and leg it to the exit, picking up invul on the way so I could punch that vile safely.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 05 -- Core Infection - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets
Yes indeed, not the loveliest of texture schemes to grace HR, the fabled STARTAN w/paperboard flats combo rears its head, along with some of the one-room schizophrenia from map 03 in some of the deeper reaches. I wouldn't say it's remarkably ugly or anything, though (for me the texture scheme that triggers a gut reaction of "this map is going to be a turd" is fullbright GSTONE + hardwood flooring, aka "The D!Zone Special"), but I suppose there's some level of nostalgia speaking here. This is actually one of the more memorable and idiosyncratic layouts in HR (whether or not that's a good thing is of course in the eye of the beholder!), with a heavily stacked, knotted construction that sees you pogo-ing up and down throughout the base at nearly every progression point. There are many windows throughout (and even some weird dead-ends that end in nothing BUT a window), which apart from allowing imps and other cretins to harass you if you're not careful about where you stand also lend an unusually pronounced degree of visual interconnection between areas, making the base seem larger and more complex than it really is.

I suppose all that is talking around the issue of the map's overall playability, though. I recall this being the first map I had trouble on way back when, not so much in a "I can't stay alive" sense as "I don't have anything left to pound through this flesh-blockade" sense--the tiny rooms are PACKED with demons, amongst them quite a few ammo-sink hardbodies (Barons and HKs feature prominently), and if you waffle around too much or get too OCD about shooting the big imp-clots through the windows before they are actually obstructing your immediate path, it's easy to hit a stalemate point, which in my view is actually a fate worse than death. In actuality, there is plenty of ammo to get the job done, but you'll have to be selective about how you spend it. Unfortunately, proper selection involves lots of early shotgunning through dense clusters of HP, and the vast majority of encounters are door-fights (with the occasional window-fight as you move up in the world); some of the thing placement in this map is absolutely baffling, particularly the late appearance of the rocket launcher. Getting the plasma rifle early and knowing ahead of time how to budget its ammo greatly expedites the second half of the map, but of course that's not an experience many casual players are likely to have; instead it's likely to be the game's first real slog, a throwback to a time when what we now refer to as 'grindy' gameplay was not necessarily seen as a cardinal sin. To my chagrin, I also noticed a lot of monster-blocking lines here (maybe that big blemish on Kama Sutra's gameplay wasn't as without precedent as I thought?), injecting a layer of artificially that even I, who already knows the 'right' way to play the map, have a difficult time rationalizing.

With 15+ years of hindsight, it's not difficult for me to make the pronouncement that this map's honestly not much fun....and the frustrating thing is that it could've been with different thing placement. Imagine the layout (sans block-lines!) stuffed to the gills with imps and zombies and not much else--a much pacier murderfest where windows are more relevant and some potential for the 'wandering monster' effect exists. If we're going to credit Donner/Niv for having the vision to establish a map arrangement template that many later iconic WADs would follow, we also have to hold them accountable for where they fuck it up, and I do believe that by any standard they overdid it here, falling victim to a "more monsters = HARD, HR = HARD" precept in the context of a layout simply not suited to that style of placement.

Map 06 -- The Round Crossroads - 101% Kills / 100% Secrets
....and the main thing I always remember this one for is being unmemorable, ha. You'd think that crusher at least would remain in my memory, but alas....

A much simpler/less interesting layout than in map 05 here--essentially a hubspoke with a few Wolf3D-esque wings hanging off of it--though ironically it arguably plays better (at least for a casual playthrough). Heavy monsters or large groups of not-so-heavy monsters blocking up the networks of orthogonal corridors is again the order of the day (and again, excessive Baron-usage is probably the biggest point of criticism), but here you can generally plow through more smoothly, courtesy of a convenient SSG pickup right at the start, as well as a plasma rifle from a somewhat long-winded early secret that I imagine most players are likely to find. Ammo and health are plentiful as well (esp. if you don't need the free computer map at the end for its intended purpose of informing you of the soulsphere secret), so making it through this one is simply a matter of not dying on first entry to the Crossroads, and perhaps of not trying to out-cheek the cheeky crusher.

If we insist on digging a little deeper here, we might notice that while the action is still rather door-campy at this point, out in the main Crossroads area a complication has been added in the form of elevated snipers on the four corners who will not allow you to comfortably stand still in any kind of productive position until they are dealt with, a concept that, suffice to say, we will be seeing again many times before the set is finished. In this case there's plenty of ammo around to eliminate the snipers (again the placement of the RL from a pistol-start is somewhat frustrating), which ironically is a bit of a double-edged sword from a gameplay perspective--yes, you can easily deal with the problem early on, but doing so is arguably less fun (and definitely less efficient) than tolerating the harassment until a later face-to-drooling-maw meeting. In a modern challenge-oriented mapset, this is unlikely to be an issue simply because the choice is unlikely to exist (e.g. the mapper will likely make the choice FOR you by limiting ammo to an extent that it'd be imprudent to spend it on essentially stationary targets early on); here you've a relevant choice between caution and efficiency. In later maps in the set, when HR has more fully come into its own, making these sorts of choices (and recognizing prime opportunities to take advantage of situations where they exist) will be more robust and account for no small part of the satisfaction to be had in playing, but in a limited early-game setup like this it unfortunately is more like a convenient marriage of tedium and practicality, interesting talking-point or no. :D

[joe-ilya]

VGA said:

Can someone start posting demos from MAP09 onwards? I have been watching joe's vids but they are lowres, I want demos so I can watch them on native res.

What's wrong with the resolution? It's the original doom resolution.