Post Your Opinions About Doom (Whether Controversial or Not)

[Wagi]

Port authors need to leave the default automap colors the hell alone and only change them if the user explicitly chooses to do so.

[HombreSal]

I said it before and I'll say it again.

 

Bloodfalls is criminally underappreciated.

[DOEL]

Doom 1 is kinda dull and a slog after getting used to Doom 2 with its SSG and new monsters.

 

Eviternity has a lot of boring maps (though some outstanding ones too) and the new monsters are annoying.

 

Valiant is overrated in general. (Not to knock Skillsaw, other map sets of his are fantastic.)

Edited May 4, 2020 by DOEL

[TheNoob_Gamer]

24 minutes ago, DOEL said:

Doom 1 is kinda dull and a slog after getting used to Doom 2 with its SSG and new monsters.

 

This isn't a controversial opinion, as proven by the fact that well-made Doom 1 PWADs are few and far between due to the enemy types.

 

Quote

Eviternity, Valiant

Given that you seem to not like custom stuff beside vanilla-oriented WADs; I'll say that MBF-compatible (mega)wads in general aren't for you.

Although, I half-agree with you on Eviternity's custom enemies.

Edited May 4, 2020 by TheNoob_Gamer

[DOEL]

16 minutes ago, TheNoob_Gamer said:

Given that you seem to not like custom stuff beside vanilla-oriented WADs; I'll say that MBF-compatible (mega)wads in genral aren't for you.

Although, I half-agree with you on Eviternity's custom enemies.

 

For what it's worth Scythe 2 is one of my absolute favorite WADs and I've really enjoyed Resurgence thus far. Custom monsters and weapons are just really hit-or-miss for me.

 

Another opinion, probably not controversial but the SSG is ugly as hell due to the weird shadowing on the right barrel. I'd love to have a mod that changes the way it looks and nothing else, especially since it's easily my most used weapon.

Edited May 4, 2020 by DOEL

[ReaperAA]

1 minute ago, DOEL said:

For what it's worth Scythe 2 is one of my absolute favorite WADs and I've really enjoyed Resurgence thus far. Custom monsters and weapons are just really hit-or-miss for me.

 

For me, its the other way around. I absolutely hate *Scythe 2's custom monsters, but I really like Valiant's and Eviternity's custom monsters (except for the Annihilator in Eviternity). Infact, I will go as far as to state that Valiant has the best custom monster roster ever made.

 

*Not to forget that I also find Scythe 2 overrated and I vastly prefer the original Scythe.

[VGamingJunkie]

33 minutes ago, DOEL said:

Doom 1 is kinda dull and a slog after getting used to Doom 2 with its SSG and new monsters.

 

In a way, I have a similar feeling about Doom 2016. It's weird going back to it and not having certain things like a dash and meat hook.

[DOEL]

Gotta throw in one more opinion, Back to Saturn X's monothematic map design is almost unbearable which for me is unfortunate since it has great gameplay.

Edited May 4, 2020 by DOEL

[MassiveEdgelord]

DOOM 64 is shit. It's basically just DOOM 3.

Also John Carmack's quote about storytelling in games is stupid.

[Pechudin]

1 hour ago, DOEL said:

Doom 1 is kinda dull and a slog after getting used to Doom 2 with its SSG and new monsters.

 

    It's the other way around for me, I find DooM II dull due to the less cohesive theme and 'narrative'. Also, the SSG just kills most of the claustrophobic tension that a pack of pinkies in a narrow space can make. SSG in general just trivializes a lot of the old guard enemies, like the Baron or Cacodemon. I guess that's why it is easier to map for DooM II, as the smaller enemy roster requires some creative mapping to make use of the enemies strenghts.

4 minutes ago, MassiveEdgelord said:

Also John Carmack's quote about storytelling in games is stupid.

 

    Amen. But he's a techy kind of guy, that's kind of expected. Storytelling (such as it is in DooM) is a crucial factor in how much I will enjoy a WAD. That's why stuff like Hellbound, A.L.T. and as a special mention Doxylamine Moon (from Sacrament, the non-overdose version) are my favourite WADs.

[DSC]

1 hour ago, DOEL said:

Eviternity has a lot of boring maps

What do you mean by that?

[ReaperAA]

11 minutes ago, MassiveEdgelord said:

DOOM 64 is shit. It's basically just DOOM 3.

 

Doom 64 came out before Doom 3. Also I disagree that Doom 64 is like Doom 3. They both have a darker tone compared to classic Doom, but that's where the similarities end.

 

11 minutes ago, MassiveEdgelord said:

Also John Carmack's quote about storytelling in games is stupid.

 

Fun Fact. Carmack himself regrets making that statement..

 

1 hour ago, DOEL said:

Gotta throw in one more opinion, Back to Saturn X's monothematic map design is almost unbearable which for me is unfortunate since it has great gameplay.

 

While BTSX is among my top ranking mapsets, I agree that the monothematic design (especially of E1) gets repetitive after a while. Which is why I like to play BTSX in short bursts.

 

1 minute ago, DSC said:

What do you mean by that?

 

Nothing wrong with someone having an opinion, even though it is one that is not shared by me (I personally find Eviternity to have some of the best maps ever made).

[DSC]

1 minute ago, ReaperAA said:

Nothing wrong with someone having an opinion, even though it is one that is not shared by me (I personally find Eviternity to have some of the best maps ever made).

I didn't say he can't have his opinion, I just wanted to know his reasoning.

[Pechudin]

Just now, ReaperAA said:

Fun Fact. Carmack himself regrets making that statement..

 

    Really? Did not know that, thanks for sharing that!

[DOEL]

7 minutes ago, DSC said:

What do you mean by that?

 

It's been a while since I went through Eviternity but I remember there being some maps with a lot of incidental combat situations with lower tier monsters along the lines of Memento Mori 1 & 2 which I absolutely do not like.

 

I need to play through it again, I'd be lying if I didn't admit there are some absolute banger maps too.

[Doomkid]

On 4/30/2020 at 4:45 AM, Wagi said:

Port authors need to leave the default automap colors the hell alone and only change them if the user explicitly chooses to do so.

This but for literally every setting, other than perhaps resolution. Jumping, crouching and a bunch of other questionable non-vanilla behavior being on by default will never not be stupid in Doom.

 

I love having the option to enable all these cool new settings, but imagine if you ordered a Bic Mac and there was a bunch of weird, random toppings on it that you didn't ask for. Peppers, ketchup, maybe even chocolate sauce. My point is, you don't fuck with a tried-and-true recipe like that, unless the user specifically asks for it. Just my opinion, but it seems obvious, especially given that the majority of Doom content is not intended for jumping and crouching anyway.

 

To put the shoe on the other foot: Imagine playing a source port for a Mario game, but by default the jumping ability is switched off, and you had to go in and turn it on manually just so the game isn't utterly broken. Really weird choice.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Doomkid

[taufan99]

Oh, speaking of DOOM 64...

I'm growing weary of how people and media alike tell us that DOOM 64 is the franchise's stepchild ignored by many, conceived outside of id Software's supervision. Yes, it's much more different than the Classic Doom we all know and love, but it just attracts as much attention as well, and id actually helped Midway during development.

[DSC]

Just now, DOEL said:

 

It's been a while since I went through Eviternity but I remember there being some maps with a lot of incidental combat situations with lower tier monsters along the lines of Memento Mori 1 & 2 which I absolutely do not like.

 

I need to play through it again, I'd be lying if I didn't admit there are some absolute banger maps too.

Didn't really feel like there was much incidental combat at all... In fact, for me it was mostly traps, arenas and all around just difficult traps. But what is the problem with incidental combat anyways? It was in Doom from the start, most of the original games were like that. It populates the maps just nicely, and not all encounters need to be difficult at all, having some breathing space is nice too...

 

Oh, well, its just your opinion at the end of the day, just like its only mine too...

[ReaperAA]

50 minutes ago, DOEL said:

It's been a while since I went through Eviternity but I remember there being some maps with a lot of incidental combat situations with lower tier monsters along the lines of Memento Mori 1 & 2 which I absolutely do not like.

 

I need to play through it again, I'd be lying if I didn't admit there are some absolute banger maps too.

 

A few maps are definitely like that, especially in the first episode (map 1 to 4) but most maps actually have traps and arenas. Map 12 and onwards mostly consist of elaborate combat setups.

 

I have played MM1 and believe me, MM1 and Eviternity have vastly different combat.

Edited May 4, 2020 by ReaperAA
Meant to type (map 1 to 4) instead of (map 1 to 5)

[DSC]

2 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

A few maps are definitely like that, especially in the first episode (map 1 to 5) but most maps actually have traps and arenas. Map 12 and onwards mostly consist of elaborate combat setups.

 

 I have played MM1 and believe me, MM1 and Eviternity have vastly different combat.

Yeah, precisely like what I said. Although I must correct you in one small detail: MAP05 is a full-blown arena style map, with near zero incidental combat. MAPs1-4 do have more of that, but they are the first maps plus they flow so well, it really isn't a problem at all. Episode 2 features even less of that, and by the time it reaches Episode 3, it indeed is mostly combat puzzles.

[Doomkid]

Would strongly preferring incidental combat to "scripted fights" count as a controversial opinion? (Even worse if the scripted fight is in a circular room. God help me, I'm bored just thinking about it.)

 

Actually, I think the best combat is somewhere in the middle: The author has "scripted" certain elements of the fight such as obstacles, powerups, and invisible barriers making sure the monsters are generally where they are "supposed" to be, but the fights are not choreographed or planned down to the gnat's ass.  Incidental combat feels more satsifying and natural to me, but if it's just because the mapper plopped enemies all over the place and they just wander aimlessly hoping you'll find them, that is pretty lazy and can lead to long stretches of boredom.

 

Striking a balance where you naturally kill every enemy because the map/fights are laid out well but it didn't feel scripted is the stuff that makes a WAD go into "check plus" territory for me!

[seed]

30 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

This but for literally every setting, other than perhaps resolution. Jumping, crouching and a bunch of other questionable non-vanilla behavior being on by default will never not be stupid in Doom.

 

I guess this would be my other controversial opinion then - the opposite of yours.

 

Port authors are in no way responsible for what defaults they set in their port as long as they can still be changed, especially in feature rich ports. If people refuse to learn to configure it adequately for whatever they're playing through, they should probably just use a different port altogether.

[Doomkid]

8 minutes ago, seed said:

I guess this would be my other controversial opinion then - the opposite of yours.

 

Port authors are in no way responsible for what defaults they set in their port as long as they can still be changed, especially in feature rich ports. If people refuse to learn to configure it adequately for whatever they're playing through, they should probably just use a different port altogether.

I think that's fair for less important stuff like the partial invisiblity being somewhat useful in ZDoom (vs being an active hindrance in vanilla) or other things like blood/bullet decals and other visual enhancements. Even freelook being on by default I can live with, it's more a QOL improvement than anything else these days.

 

...but default jumping and crouching, I don't think I can ever change my mind on. Hour-long maps now beaten in mere seconds because the common newb downloading a ZDoom-based port doesn't realize that jumping and crouching are full-blown cheats. I know it's happened millions of times at this point, and that is just awful.

 

Imagine it being done to other games. If the most commonly available version of Mario 64 nowadays quietly tripled his jump height or something, completely invalidating huge, carefully crafted parts of the game. New players not even knowing they're cheating their way through the campaign, on account of being new. I just think that sucks total balls. An experienced player surely knows Doom had no jumping by default, but the common newbie is just jumping their way through the campaigns these days..

Edited May 4, 2020 by Doomkid

[666shooter]

I think the original Hell Revelaed may be one of the most tedious and insufferable chores of a Wad I've ever played. I stopped after Map 13 on UV, not because I couldn't finish it with the so-called "difficulty" if I kept trying, but because I was just bored and frustrated almost to tears. The idea of "slaughter" on spectacle here was almost laughable, to the point where any modern Megawad claiming extensive inspiration from this corregated relic will get a momentary glare of suspicion from me before I commit to a download. I'm serious- I was bitterly laughing my way through Map 11, as soon as the pinky apocalypse hit, and almost deleted the stupid thing there. There is a reason mappers place a SSG or rocket launcher in accessible portions of the map; grinding through Barons and Revenants with a single shotgun or chaingun at the best is tedious and obnoxious and does not make your map harder, only less playable. I've heard so many voices shouting the praises of this so-called "Classic" that I was appaled when I actually found what the so-called gameplay consisted of. Very dissapointed, but I'm very glad we've learned from these mistakes. Thanks, Mr. Alm. I'll take any modern slaughtermap over this tripe any day.

[ReaperAA]

37 minutes ago, DSC said:

Yeah, precisely like what I said. Although I must correct you in one small detail: MAP05 is a full-blown arena style map, with near zero incidental combat. MAPs1-4 do have more of that,

 

Oopsies. I meant to type map 1 to 4.

Edited May 4, 2020 by ReaperAA

[seed]

18 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I think that's fair for less important stuff like the partial invisiblity being somewhat useful in ZDoom (vs being an active hindrance in vanilla) or other things like blood/bullet decals and other visual enhancements. Even freelook being on by default I can live with, it's more a QOL improvement than anything else these days.

 

...but jumping and crouching I don't think I can ever change my mind on. Hour-long maps now beaten in mere seconds because the common newb downloading a ZDoom-based port doesn't realize that jumping and crouching are full-blown cheats. I know it's happened millions of times at this point, and that is just awful.

 

I do see where you're coming from BTW, but our opinions just differ on this matter.

 

New players jumping and playing classic wads and whatnot in unintended ways is pretty much a "user error" in my eyes, especially when the user plays in a feature rich port. If they cannot be bothered to do a simple research and waste some 5 minutes in a menu to configure the port for playing whatever they want, that's very much their problem, and not a port problem. I just don't really have much sympathy for these folks, to be brutally honest - folk that can't be bothered to waste a few minutes from their lives to read a basic guide and apply the configuration themselves. Those are probably the same kind of people who can't be arsed to read a damn text file from a WAD too, and then they wonder why things break in the levels when everything is explained there - what to do and NOT to do.

 

If it's too much of an intellectual effort, they're better off using, say, PrBoom/Crispy for vanilla/limit-removing content (or Boom), and not a ZDoom derivative. Some things might be difficult, slow, maybe even frustrating and arduous to learn, but configuring a port on a basic level is not among them. One should never limit themselves to what they know (or don't), and grow complacent/lazy.

Edited May 4, 2020 by seed

[Hellbent]

The primary reason I haven't played Doom 2016 more than a little bit and haven't played Doom Eternal at all is because of the gruesome gore in the games. I'm thinking I should probably give Doom 3 a try sometime, though.

[Alper002]

7 minutes ago, seed said:

folk that can't be bothered to waste a few minutes from their lives to read a basic guide and apply the configuration themselves.

It's worth noting that not every wad textfile specifies that jumping shouldn't be used, because it didn't always exist. How are new z-port users supposed to know that you're not meant to jump in these wads? Better yet, where is one meant to learn that jumping didn't always exist? Can it be considered user error if the location of the necessary information is unknown to the user?

[seed]

12 minutes ago, Alper002 said:

It's worth noting that not every wad textfile specifies that jumping shouldn't be used, because it didn't always exist. How are new z-port users supposed to know that you're not meant to jump in these wads? Better yet, where is one meant to learn that jumping didn't always exist? Can it be considered user error if the location of the necessary information is unknown to the user?

 

Of course, it's situational, and such wads could be a problem, sure.

 

But that being said, if it mentioned "Vanilla/None/Limit-removing" under required engines, that is already an indication at the very least. Jumping was not a thing here, and neither was freelook, but they can always ask if the information they have at their disposal is insufficient, most people who aren't arrogant know-it-all cunts do offer answers to questions after all. It comes down to doing your own research mostly, if they can't be bothered to do a short search about how Doom was played back then and what these words mean...

 

This is all stuff I had to figure out for myself too, no-one taught me how to set up the ports correctly either, and I did play with freelook and jumping too at the time. What I want to say here is just that laziness should not be used as an excuse to avoid finding the answer for one's self. Configuring a port on a basic level is a trivial job, not an insurmountable effort.

Edited May 4, 2020 by seed

[Alper002]

9 minutes ago, seed said:

This is all stuff I had to figure out for myself too, no-one taught me how to set up the ports correctly either, and I did play with freelook and jumping too at the time. What I want to say here is just that laziness should not be used as an excuse to avoid finding the answer for one's self.

Just because you didn't know any better at one point doesn't mean everyone should have to be in the same situation as you. The thing is simply that it would be better if new z-port users conveniently got to know about this stuff, rather than how we have it right now. People would more immediately understand how Doom was originally, and not initially have an incorrect image in their heads from odd defaults and lack of explanation.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Alper002