Post Your Opinions About Doom (Whether Controversial or Not)

[Finakala]

Large swarms of Revenants are obnoxious more than they are fun.

 

Forced Tyson maps are the worst kind of maps.

 

DOOM64 is overrated and honestly not very good.

[Nine Inch Heels]

1 hour ago, I Drink Lava said:

there's a solution to this, it's called stop using gzdoom for everything and use PRBoom-Plus for limit-removing or boom-compatible maps

You have absolutely no idea how easy it is to make PrB+/DSDA-Doom choke and stutter even on a decent system... Assuming the poster in question uses GZDoom for everything is also a very unjustified move, because it just so happened that you gave totally unnecessary "advice" to somebody who happens to have made a couple rather complex and decent maps already... If your idea was to do the "tough guy act", good job, this one failed horribly...

[Spectre01]

1 hour ago, I Drink Lava said:

there's a solution to this, it's called stop using gzdoom for everything and use PRBoom-Plus for limit-removing or boom-compatible maps

Did I say anything about GZDoom? It's also an issue in limit-removing and boom maps when played in PRBoom+. It doesn't take all that much to make the software renderer start chugging. About 7k linedefs in view is often enough.

[roadworx]

2 hours ago, ApprihensivSoul said:

It felt out of place in the City themed episode, and I felt like I was being jerked around. Additionally, exploration is a huge part of what made Doom fun for me as a kid, and the city maps provided replay-ability in this aspect, regardless of their admitted issue with navigability or encounter design. (Though Suburbs and Factory have some really good encounter design, at least.) 
Inmost Dens was easy to solve, never provided me with a learning curve as a kid, and felt forgettable and trite. I've grown to appreciate it's artistic quality later, especially with encounters, but it's never gotten past the "Least replayed map in Doom 2" list for me. Mostly because everything it does well, Plutonia does better, and not just with Neurosphere. 

Tenments I had an issue with the abstract room design, which felt clumsy and uncomfortable to navigate. It's probably John Romero's most Sandy Peterson-esque map, and it was an early installment in his love affair with narrow ledges and a lack of dodging space that would become mainstream in Sigil. I guess I could sum it up as "All of the issues Sigil has with none of the aesthetic or experience to justify it."

 

EDIT:
I should add, I am aware that Plutonia MAP29 does everything the city episode does better than Doom 2. My point is Plutonia only gave the city maps one map, where as Inmost Dens influenced so much of Plutonia the whole megawad feels like an exploration of every plausible take on it's design philosphy.

first off i just wanna say that i agree with you that map17 sucks lol

 

anyways, i can see how you'd dislike map14 then. i consider the inmost dens to be one of the most well-designed maps in doom 2 because of its encounter design, but yeah, everything you said about it is true. its placement in the map order isn't the best - you go from what's supposed to be a city with exploration as a primary feature to whatever tf inmost dens is supposed to be - and literally everything it does plutonia does far better.  i personally haven't ever cared about the immersion and more adventurish aspects of doom, so its placement in the map order and its linearity never really bothered me much at all. however, for people who're big into that, it's easy to see why it wouldn't be someone's favorite

[omx32x]

6 minutes ago, roadworx said:

first off i just wanna say that i agree with you that map17 sucks lol

 

anyways, i can see how you'd dislike map14 then. i consider the inmost dens to be one of the most well-designed maps in doom 2 because of its encounter design, but yeah, everything you said about it is true. its placement in the map order isn't the best - you go from what's supposed to be a city with exploration as a primary feature to whatever tf inmost dens is supposed to be - and literally everything it does plutonia does far better.  i personally haven't ever cared about the immersion and more adventurish aspects of doom, so its placement in the map order and its linearity never really bothered me much at all. however, for people who're big into that, it's easy to see why it wouldn't be someone's favorite

i wished doom focused more into that like its not that hard just make the exit points logical with the start of the next map or be like quake and say fuck it and just place portals on every exit

[ApprihensivSoul]

2 hours ago, Lol 6 said:

The plasma gun's sound is very ear rapping 

 

This isn't controversial. There are so ridiculously many mods that make no other changes to weapons.
That said, you're completely right. I wonder why.

On all this source port controversy, I love GZDooM, PRBoom+, Zandronum, and Doom Retro. I struggle using DooMsday, loving the options/interface but hating the limited mod-ability. (It's there, for sure, I just prefer the accessibility of Decorate.)

DooM Retro I have a particular soft spot for, rewriting some code occasionally to make it play more like one of the mods I make on GZDooM. I hope Heretic and HeXen versions are released someday, but DooM Retro, if it had C+S multiplayer and a couple light gameplay adjustments as built in options, I'd recommend it as the best source port consistantly.

Roadworx, I totally get what you mean, alot of people love DooM exclusively for the encounter design and I respect that. The new DooM games were very aware of it, and built the game entirely around it, and are the better for it. Sadly, they suffer at the exploration, and when I was introduced to DooM I was too young to understand what made a fight engaging, so my love for DooM grew faster than my love for good gameplay, and even today I'll skip alot of single map releases in favor of megawads just to immerse myself. Fortunately, cordial disagreement is what makes conversation fun, and your opinion is totally valid.

Regarding that, my hottest take of the night.

DooM has terrible weapon/monster balance.
 

Spoiler

Cacodemons have too many hitpoints, the chaingun fires too slow to be useful against anything but fodder, the regular shotgun is too weak in comparison to the SSG and joins the chaingun in the fodder tier later, the Mancubus is the best monster due to it's unique attack pattern. All of these tweaks should be standard options in all source ports, and I taught myself to compile C++ just to fix it in DooM Retro.

 

[Terraformer9x]

15 minutes ago, ApprihensivSoul said:

Cacodemons have too many hitpoints, the chaingun fires too slow to be useful against anything but fodder, the regular shotgun is too weak in comparison to the SSG and joins the chaingun in the fodder tier later, the Mancubus is the best monster due to it's unique attack pattern. All of these tweaks should be standard options in all source ports, and I taught myself to compile C++ just to fix it in DooM Retro.

 

I can relate to the Caco thing when it comes to Doom 1, not so much Doom 2. Although I personally like to take Cacos out with a chainsaw whenever I can. The chaingun however is better used as a "sniper" weapon rather than a weapon to use against fodder.

[Gokuma]

It seems I slightly misquoted someone...

Edited May 12, 2021 by Gokuma

[ApprihensivSoul]

Odd for a weapon called the "Chaingun", innit? But you're right. The strongest thing I use it against regularly is a Lost Soul, (which also have too many hitpoints) usually after I've decided I don't want to spend any more Shotgun shells.

[roadworx]

30 minutes ago, ApprihensivSoul said:

DooM has terrible weapon/monster balance.

 

 

  Hide contents

Cacodemons have too many hitpoints, the chaingun fires too slow to be useful against anything but fodder, the regular shotgun is too weak in comparison to the SSG and joins the chaingun in the fodder tier later, the Mancubus is the best monster due to it's unique attack pattern. All of these tweaks should be standard options in all source ports, and I taught myself to compile C++ just to fix it in DooM Retro.

 

ehhh, idk about that. in doom 1 that would be somewhat true as there wasn't an ssg, but the cacodemons can easily be taken out with a rocket launcher. however, i feel that it depends quite a bit on the mapper and how they use the bestiary and distribute ammo

 

HOWEVER!! the chaingun is fantastic against lower-tier enemies, chaingunners, and pain elementals and is a good sniping weapon. and the shotgun is, imo, the best sniping weapon in the game. the ssg is great and all but its limited range prevents it from hitting far-away enemies, and you're not always gonna have rockets or plasma (or you'll be in a situation where using rockets/plasma isn't a good idea, like if there's lost souls in the area, or there's a chance the autoaim won't work and you'll just blow yourself up). i actually find myself using it quite often to kill turrets

[spineapple tea]

Doom.

[Wavy]

4 hours ago, N1ck said:

Doom.

Took us 107 pages to find the winner of this thread.

[Maes]

7 hours ago, Lol 6 said:

The plasma gun's sound is very ear rapping 

 

A-ha! But that's actually part of the in-game weapon balance: in fact, the Plasma Rifle is such an effective and uncomplicated kind of weapon, that you'd have little incentive to use anything else once you got it, provided ammo is not a problem, and you don't prefer being a BFG spammer instead. It just makes short work of nearly everything, and can even pain-lock a Baron at close quarters before it rips you to pieces. It's also one of the greatest panic-switch weapons (again, short of the BFG perhaps, but it does have the advantage of firing right away with no delay).

 

How to balance all of this out? Well, make it unpleasant to use :-D

Edited May 12, 2021 by Maes

[Pseudonaut]

8 hours ago, I Drink Lava said:

there's a solution to this, it's called stop using gzdoom for everything and use PRBoom-Plus for limit-removing or boom-compatible maps

 

Have you played Sunder map15? That one frequently drops below 60fps for me in PrBoom+, and one part even drops into the single digits.

[MajorRawne]

8 hours ago, Finakala said:

Large swarms of Revenants are obnoxious more than they are fun.

 

Forced Tyson maps are the worst kind of maps.

 

DOOM64 is overrated and honestly not very good.

 

Agreed, I have tried to get into Doom 64 a number of times but honestly feel like they jumped the shark with it. They rushed PSX Final Doom for it, presumably removed the PSX Nightmare Imp for it, it's missing a few monsters, the graphics look like absolute turds... in many ways, despite its snazzy effects, it was a big step back from PSX Doom. The traps are incredibly mean-spirited, some secrets borderline impossible to figure out (eg you can screw your whole game up by missing the secret on map 1 - what brilliant design). It's heavily scripted in places too, sometimes just plain showing off. Even Aubrey Hodges doesn't manage to recapture the magic of his PSX soundtrack, he strips out any melody, any nostalgia, any sense of melancholy or loneliness, and just goes full darkside. The soundtrack is terrifying, but it lacks the spark of charisma, it doesn't feel crazy 90s, it's literally just ambient noise.

 

It's like they captured the feel of "creepy Doom", but not its soul.

[xX_Lol6_Xx]

4 hours ago, Pseudonaut said:

 

Have you played Sunder map15? That one frequently drops below 60fps for me in PrBoom+, and one part even drops into the single digits.

Use the OpenGL mode for very demanding maps, or, if your version is old use GLBoom-plus

[Arbys550]

4 hours ago, Lol 6 said:

Use the OpenGL mode for very demanding maps, or, if your version is old use GLBoom-plus

 

I use OpenGL mode for Sunder map15 and it still drops into single digits in some spots like Pseudonaut said. I have a high end computer too, so that's not the issue. I think there's just nothing you can do on map15, it will run poorly in some spots regardless.

[xX_Lol6_Xx]

13 minutes ago, Arbys550 said:

 

I use OpenGL mode for Sunder map15 and it still drops into single digits in some spots like Pseudonaut said. I have a high end computer too, so that's not the issue. I think there's just nothing you can do on map15, it will run poorly in some spots regardless.

Try reducing the field of view. A larger view requires more CPU. Just like Doom for the 3DO

[The BMFG]

brutal doom is better than project brutality

[Shepardus]

There's one specific section of Sunder MAP15 where on my computer the framerate suddenly drops from ~30-40 fps to about 3 fps. This doesn't occur when playing with -nomonsters, so I guess it has something to do with enemy behavior, maybe line of sight checks freaking out or something. Funnily enough, GZDoom actually performs better here.

[baja blast rd.]

One mistake I see a lot when people are trying to understand why others liked a wad they hated: underestimating the extent that fans of a wad might like, and think of as well made, the very aspects they found most unpleasant or crude or dull.

 

It is an understandable mistake, for a lot of reasons. But when people make it, their assessments of "why other people liked this wad that I hated" can become one-dimensional and uncharitable.

 

Play a well-regarded TC and find the combat way too straightforward and tepid? "I guess people care only about the visuals and about doing new things in Doom." (Maybe fans liked the chill combat, the gamefeel, and the exploration, and hold the TC up as quite strong at those.) 

 

Hate Sunlust and Ancient Aliens? "Things with bright colors seem to be very popular these days, especially if full of hundreds of monsters." 

 

Of a Boom-format slaughtermap, I saw someone conclude in part that people who liked it must have been impressed by its Boom voodoo doll scripting.

 

Common targets of that treatment, as in common things people use to explain why other people liked wads they hated, are visuals and art (whatever they are, even if they are basically a redux of  Doom 2), technical achievements, elements that can be regarded as 'bells and whistles', and broad genre-category identity (again whatever it is). Even people who end up totally hating a wad, or DNFing early, can see when those things are present, even if they don't share a similar taste for them. But much else is only noticed when one both plays a lot of a wad and at least somewhat likes it. So a lot of "hot takes" about wads' appeal trend towards assuming people like things for shallow reasons. 

[battlescroll]

the super shotgun sucks

[CasualScrub]

On 5/12/2021 at 4:54 PM, The BMFG said:

brutal doom is better than project brutality

Both are great in their own ways. BD is great for a more streamlined and straightforward experience, while PB is great for the experimentation and many weapons/enemies that they've created.

[roadworx]

5 hours ago, battlescroll said:

the super shotgun sucks

why? i'm curious as to your reasoning

[battlescroll]

Just now, roadworx said:

why? i'm curious as to your reasoning

the super shot gun has a main trait that every other gun had before it came out and that one trait is that it kills groups of low tear monsters fast but the rocket launcher could already do that and plus the chaingun and plasma gun can do that to and even faster. 

[rzh]

24 minutes ago, battlescroll said:

the super shot gun has a main trait that every other gun had before it came out and that one trait is that it kills groups of low tear monsters fast but the rocket launcher could already do that and plus the chaingun and plasma gun can do that to and even faster. 

*throws a group of revenants at you in a small room*

[battlescroll]

*gets bfg* @rzh

Edited May 14, 2021 by battlescroll

[rzh]

What if I didn't place a BFG in the level?

[AnonKaiju]

Have no idea if this is actually controversial. But something that bugs me about playing doom 2 megawads is how the secret exit is almost always in map 15. Like ya I understand why it happens (at least on a very surface level) but knowing which map has the secret level in it takes the magic out of having secret levels in the 1st place

[Gokuma]

That's because doom2.exe is hardcoded for the secret exit special to only work as intended on maps15 and 31.   So any Doom 2 wad that's vanilla compatible will do that.   Now with Doom 1 in any episode, a secret exit takes you to mission 9, but each episode is hardcoded where mission 9's normal exit then takes you.   So with vanilla Doom 1 you have a little more flexibility.

 

Hexen or ports supporting mapinfo (including the current official Doom Classic) allow you to change this.   Or in Strife you set a tag # for the normal exit level to pick which map for it to go to and secret exit line triggers a story sequence instead.