[UPDATED] The DOOM System Upgrade Thread

[MonsieurKrinkle]

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/t2bbFT

Once May comes around, most of the stuff I haven't bought for this build will be purchased ASAP.

Based on the recently revealed beta specs (HOPEFULLY it stays that way), I'll be able to run the game?? Or do I need a better GTX 970??

[ReFracture]

The 970 is the recommended GPU, I can't imagine you'll have any trouble with it.

[Plasma Gun]

MonsieurKrinkle said:

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/t2bbFT

Once May comes around, most of the stuff I haven't bought for this build will be purchased ASAP.

Based on the recently revealed beta specs (HOPEFULLY it stays that way), I'll be able to run the game?? Or do I need a better GTX 970??

For the most part, a GTX 970 is a GTX 970 is a GTX 970 :) Some come clocked a little higher out of the box, with fancier coolers, etc. But fundamentally they're all virtually the same.

[Plasma Gun]

ReFracture said:

Developers can optimize their code to run better on consoles than they can on similar specced PCs, this is because the fixed specs on consoles allows them to optimize for that hardware specifically.

PCs are of course a different story, the developers have to accommodate the wide variety by using higher level APIs which are not as efficient.

Microsoft is trying to address this with DX12 I guess, we'll see how that goes.

ReFracture, good post. However, I think that a lot of developers cower behind this as a lame excuse for sloppily written, half-assed console ports.

From what I have seen of the Doom footage, there's no frigging way that if it were properly optimized it you REQUIRE a GTX 970 for 1080p/60hz. I sincerely hope that it will run well on much lower spec hardware otherwise they risk alienating a big portion of the Doom fan-base.

[ReFracture]

Plasma Gun said:

ReFracture, good post. However, I think that a lot of developers cower behind this as a lame excuse for sloppily written, half-assed console ports.

I blame the publishers and their bean counters more than the devs. They have a deadline and they prioritize the platforms that make the most money. A half assed PC version that ships is still a shipped product in that point of view I guess.

[id.dav]

ReFracture said:

Developers can optimize their code to run better on consoles....

Bla bla bla....yeah I heard this like 666 times. I'm a seasoned PC user and I know how GPU behave when we have something poorly optimised..it is called horrible frame drops or whatever, but when I have constant 4 fps and no matter what I do, change resolution up to 640x480, change settings, look in to the wall or in to a highly detailed space and it always 4 FPS and a less powerfull 650ti at least output 25 fps...then it is nothing but a disgusting move to block off specific chip from Doom, locking frame rate on a software level....that's just....soo meanly.

[ReFracture]

id.dav said:

Bla bla bla....yeah I heard this like 666 times.

Okay whatever. I have no idea what's going on in the example you're talking about, I'm just telling you that expecting identical performance out of hardware between a closed and open environment is unrealistic. This is not all encompassing of every situation where a game might be running like shit on your PC.

[id.dav]

ReFracture said:

Okay whatever. I have no idea what's going on in the example you're talking about, I'm just telling you that expecting identical performance out of hardware between a closed and open environment is unrealistic. This is not all encompassing of every situation where a game might be running like shit on your PC.

Not my PC...but everyone who owns 750 ti was and will be screwed completely.

[ReFracture]

Well for whatever it's worth the current specs discussing the 750ti and mobile GPUs as being inadequate are for the beta, it says to check back for the final specs.

They're probably having issues with getting the game to run properly on that GPU for technical reasons and not raw performance reasons. They have nothing to gain by locking out some budget GPU.

I can echo similar experiences with the GTX560m in my old laptop.. no matter how low I put the settings it ran like complete shit, yet I can play other modern games pretty smoothly at low to medium settings on that thing.

[Deatheye]

id.dav said:

Not my PC...but everyone who owns 750 ti was and will be screwed completely.

did you really expect people could play doom on a moderate level with that graphics card anyway?

[id.dav]

Deatheye said:

did you really expect people could play doom on a moderate level with that graphics card anyway?

Yes I did and I do!

[MiNaM]

id.dav said:

Bla bla bla....yeah I heard this like 666 times. I'm a seasoned PC user and I know how GPU behave when we have something poorly optimised..it is called horrible frame drops or whatever, but when I have constant 4 fps and no matter what I do, change resolution up to 640x480, change settings, look in to the wall or in to a highly detailed space and it always 4 FPS and a less powerfull 650ti at least output 25 fps...then it is nothing but a disgusting move to block off specific chip from Doom, locking frame rate on a software level....that's just....soo meanly.

You realy think that they BLOCKED a specific chip on the software level "or chips, considering mobile GPU's", and loose a big market and lot's of money ? for what ??

Excuse me pal but you know nothing about GPU's or idtech6 engine "or both"..

a bit of "Google" and you should at least know that idtech6 heavily uses GPGPU capabilities to transcode and stream textures "just like it's predecessor", which technically requires a minimum number of stream processors in your GPU to work..

by knowing that, and with a bit of "Google" on what is GPGPU computing and what is the difference between those supported and non-supported GPU's, you should know why a 750Ti & wide range of mobile GPU's aren't supported and why 650Ti could outperform 750Ti..

From the PC system requirements we know that the minimum number of (SP's/CUDA Cores) to run @60fps is 1664 cores "GTX970", and the minimum to run @30fps is 1280 cores "HD7870", now take a look at this:

(unsupported or expected low performance marked with "X")
650Ti = 768 X <-
660 = 960 X
670 = 1334
750Ti = 640 X <-
760 = 1152 X
770 = 1536
780 = 2304
780Ti = 2880
950 = 768 X
960 = 1024 X
970 = 1664
980 = 2048
980Ti = 2816
Mobile 950m = 640 X
Mobile 960m = 640 X
Mobile 965m = 1024 X
Mobile 970m = 1280
Mobile 980m = 1536
PS4 = 1152 *
XBone = 768 *

here's your answers..

-Why it doesn't run on 750Ti ?
because it doesn't meet minimum spec

-How the hell it runs faster on 650Ti ?
because it has 128 more CUDA Cores GPGPU processing should run faster compared to much less cores at slightly higher clock speed "750Ti"

-Why it doesn't support mobile GPU's ?
because the majority of mobile GPU's doesn't meet the minimum requirements, but 970m & 980m does, and the game should run perfectly fine on them.

*-650Ti & 950 has 768 CUDA Cores, the same number of a XBone, how the hell it can achieve 60fps with that ?
because it's optimized specifically for it, it might be running @4K or 8K textures on XBone and 16K on PC

[ReFracture]

Only one question:
Can you provide a source for the SP/Cuda core requirements? I'm not finding much about that on Google.

[AirRaid]

ReFracture said:

Only one question:
Can you provide a source for the SP/Cuda core requirements? I'm not finding much about that on Google.

He's just looking at the specs of the minimum/recommended cards and extrapolating a bit. Those numbers shouldn't be taken as hard fact, but it's a good estimation of why a lot of those cards will not make the grade for Doom.

[id.dav]

MiNaM said:

You realy think that they BLOCKED a specific chip on the software level "or chips, considering mobile GPU's"

So the reason is cuda cores? It is not sufficient enough to transcode textures in id tech 6? Then how it was possible in id tech 5? I mean Wolf and The Evil Within?
And how exactly it hits the pure performance? I mean if it can't handle texture transcode it still do not explain anything. Why a bigbox map wich is just a fucking 4 walls shows exactly the same result....there's nothing to transcode there. Explain this please! And what about CPU then?

[AirRaid]

The bottom line is that id software are not confident that those cards will be able to run their game to a satisfactory level, and so are recommending the use of higher spec hardware.

We do not know the exact reasons why, but since they are the ones who are making this game, and they are the ones who have done all of the testing with various specifications, you're going to have to take their word for it.

Having said that, I will now play devil's advocate. They are saying that the 750Ti is "not supported", not that it will categorically not run the game. This just means that if you complain to them about bad performance and list that as your GPU, they will just say "Well, we told you". You might be able to play, at a lower resolution and lower detail settings, and get a decent framerate. After all, people managed to get Doom 3 running on a Voodoo 2.

It's also worth re-iterating that those specs are still not final, and the specs for the final game might change. The specs changed between alpha and beta, albeit in the wrong direction to help you out.

Your dumb rants about "OMG WHY THO MY 750TI IS JUST FINE" will get you literally nowhere, however.

[id.dav]

AirRaid said:

Your dumb rants about "OMG WHY THO MY 750TI IS JUST FINE" will get you literally nowhere, however.

Look I'm not some ignorant moron. I do fully understand what hardware I have....it's just I wanted more clarity and MiNam gave it....I really never looked for difference between 650 ti and 750 ti, I always thought every newer chip is faster of its predessesor and it appears that these are the specifics of id tech 6 that just works differently. I don't really hold my breath for final game...if beta code still not a match for 750 ti...maybe 800x600 = 20 fps, low settings is the best 750 owners can expect in retail.

[AirRaid]

Put it this way, at least you know this now, and are not finding it out on release day with the game in your hands.

[ReFracture]

id.dav said:

I really never looked for difference between 650 ti and 750 ti, I always thought every newer chip is faster of its predessesor and it appears that these are the specifics of id tech 6 that just works differently.

Imagine my surprise when we "upgraded" from a GeForce 4 Ti4200 to a GeForce FX5500. :)

AirRaid said:

He's just looking at the specs of the minimum/recommended cards and extrapolating a bit. Those numbers shouldn't be taken as hard fact, but it's a good estimation of why a lot of those cards will not make the grade for Doom.

I guess that makes sense.

It will be interesting to see if I can get Doom tweaked enough to run on my 960m decently, graphics be damned!

[id.dav]

AirRaid said:

Put it this way, at least you know this now, and are not finding it out on release day with the game in your hands.

Yeah!) well youtube walkthrough is still an option and in 1080p/60))))

[id.dav]

ReFracture said:

Imagine my surprise when we "upgraded" from a GeForce 4 Ti4200 to a GeForce FX5500. :)

XD)))Well you see I was upgrading from 9600 GT soo)) But I know what you are talking about))

[Use]

id.dav said:

Yeah!) well youtube walkthrough is still an option and in 1080p/60))))

Oh yeah that will be..just as fun.

[Plasma Gun]

I hate to sound insensitive, but if you can afford a $50 game, then what's so hard about saving up for a $199 graphics card to play a whole bunch of games? Save $25 a week from now until May 13 (that's ~8 weeks) and a new GTX 960/R9 380 can be yours.

Or, if you're a real value hound, hit up eBay and get a GTX 670/Radeon HD 7970 for like $100.

[romulus_ut3]

I think the real reason behind GTX 750 Ti not being supported has likely something to do with OpenGL support. It probably doesn't provide acceptable performance when used with OpenGL 4.3 or something.

[MiNaM]

ReFracture said:

Only one question:
Can you provide a source for the SP/Cuda core requirements? I'm not finding much about that on Google.

It's whereever you can find your GPU's detailed specs, CUDA Cores are for Nvidia GPU's & Stream Processors are AMD's..
I see you have a mobile 960m GPU which have 640 CUDA Cores Link

AirRaid said:

He's just looking at the specs of the minimum/recommended cards and extrapolating a bit. Those numbers shouldn't be taken as hard fact, but it's a good estimation of why a lot of those cards will not make the grade for Doom.

AirRaid said:

The bottom line is that id software are not confident that those cards will be able to run their game to a satisfactory level, and so are recommending the use of higher spec hardware.

We do not know the exact reasons why, but since they are the ones who are making this game, and they are the ones who have done all of the testing with various specifications, you're going to have to take their word for it.

Having said that, I will now play devil's advocate. They are saying that the 750Ti is "not supported", not that it will categorically not run the game. This just means that if you complain to them about bad performance and list that as your GPU, they will just say "Well, we told you". You might be able to play, at a lower resolution and lower detail settings, and get a decent framerate. After all, people managed to get Doom 3 running on a Voodoo 2.

It's also worth re-iterating that those specs are still not final, and the specs for the final game might change. The specs changed between alpha and beta, albeit in the wrong direction to help you out.

Your dumb rants about "OMG WHY THO MY 750TI IS JUST FINE" will get you literally nowhere, however.

Exactly...

id.dav said:

So the reason is cuda cores? It is not sufficient enough to transcode textures in id tech 6?

Yes exactly, you're experiencing something similar to what happened with RAGE on AMD cards when it first came out, SP cores wasn't functioning correctly "or not at all" due to bad drivers and the game's engine was forced to throw those heavy calculations on the CPU causing very poor performance.

Then how it was possible in id tech 5? I mean Wolf and The Evil Within?

You're comparing the old idTech5 engine's games to the newer idTech6, they need different requirements, that's like comparing CryEngine1 games to CryEngine2 "FarCry1 to Crysis1"...

And how exactly it hits the pure performance? I mean if it can't handle texture transcode it still do not explain anything. Why a bigbox map wich is just a fucking 4 walls shows exactly the same result....there's nothing to transcode there. Explain this please! And what about CPU then?

it directly hits performance because those cores are responsible for transcoding, streaming, and decompressing huge texture data, more cores means faster job, insufficient cores and the GPU will just sit there doing nothing waiting for them to finish their job to render the frame.. lowering screen resolution or turning off AA will affect the GPU frame rendering speed, not the GPGPU part of the job.. what should affect and increase the performance in your case is selecting a lower texture pack.. RAGE comes with 3 different packs, 4K, 8K, and 16K textures.. DOOM is still unknown and there is a big chance that it won't come with selective texture quality..

Why Bigbox map have the same issue even if it's a small map ?
because you're affecting the GPU rendering speed not the stuff thrown at the GPGPU part...

I hope this clears things for you..

[id.dav]

MiNaM said:

what should affect and increase the performance in your case is selecting a lower texture pack.. RAGE comes with 3 different packs, 4K, 8K, and 16K textures.. DOOM is still unknown and there is a big chance that it won't come with selective texture quality..

Naahh I messed around with every possible VT command in doom VT_maxPPF 2, vt_pageImageSizeUnique 512, vt_pageImageSizeVmtr 512, vt_usecudatranscode 2 - wich set to 0 by default - game loaded map with completely blured textures like with picmip command in quake 3, nothing helps...gpu just doesn't care what I set.

[MiNaM]

id.dav said:

Naahh I messed around with every possible VT command in doom VT_maxPPF 2, vt_pageImageSizeUnique 512, vt_pageImageSizeVmtr 512, vt_usecudatranscode 2 - wich set to 0 by default - game loaded map with completely blured textures like with picmip command in quake 3, nothing helps...gpu just doesn't care what I set.

the commands in DOOM are:
toggle vt_pageimagesizeuniquediffuseonly2 16384
toggle vt_pageimagesizeuniquediffuseonly 16384
toggle vt_pageimagesizeunique 16384
toggle vt_pageimagesizevmtr 16384

where 16K=16384, 8K=8192, 4K=8096

the commands doesn't change anything because there's no other textures packed in the Alpha, we don't even know if it's running 16K or 32K, more or less ??

Even we know the max for RAGE is 16K, idT5 was capable of running 128K textures !

[Moon Marin]

i suspect that the more important bottleneck in graphical hardware concerning the recent idtech engines are around memory and memory bandwidth, as others have stated the 750ti may not be able to stream the textures at a fast enough rate for the game to run in any manner.

with that said, you can most likely play the game with everything maxed besides AA in 1080p on any halfway capable card that has a 4gb frame buffer. Something cheap like a 4gb 960 or a r9 380 can both be found sub $200 which will do the job. im sure a 950 or a 370 would be enough if you were willing to compromise on some settings.

[AirRaid]

I would never consider a GTX *50 card for serious gaming. They are budget cards and their performance will always be seriously compromised. The 950 is barely faster than the 750Ti.

[magma86]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABJkhsMkaKQ