[Video] Marty Stratton Answering Community Questions

[Chezza]

AirRaid said:

Marty literally confirmed, IN THIS VIDEO, that this is the case. Chubz even quoted that part in his summary.

Ah righto, that's probably what inspired the thought. Well I'm right on the money then!

[Chubzdoomer]

Plasma Gun said:

True! You missed out on a lot of goodness if you didn't explore, but if you wanted to just push to the exit, you could just do that...for the most part.

Perhaps in half or more of episode 1, but definitely not in most of episode 2 and 3. Containment Area and Pandemonium were fairly large, mazelike levels thrown at the player early on, for example, and then there was Mount Erebus!

DOOM 2 in particular had a whole bunch of super non-linear levels that were tricky to figure out. Try pushing straight through Downtown or Industrial Zone without ever having played 'em before! All I can say is good luck! :-P

I just hope we have at least one or two levels in the new DOOM game like those, where exploration is a must and you don't necessarily push forward from start to finish.

[MrHofmann]

redrage said:

If you don't, a route that circles back on itself, backtracking or any level traversal that is not roughly aimed towards the nav point will, instead of aiding the gamer, actually confuse him or her. Remember this nav point is there, specifically, to aid players who would have trouble navigating otherwise.

If by this you mean this kind of situation:



then yes it could be a problem, but that can easily be fixed using more waypoints for example placed like this:



When the player reaches the first waypoint/checkpoint the next one appears and so on until the player eventually reaches the final one. Keep in mind that within the areas/chapters there can be lots of rooms, paths, non-linearity and exploration. The waypoints can be placed any other way, as long as it's not confusing the player. Levels can be non-linear as the originals if the waypoints are placed smart enough, i.e. waypoints don't limit the level design and non-linearity. In this example the areas/chapters are placed in a linear order, but that doesn't have to be the case as well, there could be lots of different non-linear combinations. Here are more examples:

http://imgur.com/a/jeHn9

[redrage]

@Hoffman
Let me start by saying how happy I am that you took it upon yourself to edit your original post. When I read it last evening, I felt rather appalled. In fact, after reading it, I had decided to just not bother posting here anymore. I won't restate what it read or how abrasive it truly was, I am just happy you decided to edit it to what it is now.

With this friendly spirit of discussion in full effect, lets walk through some of your points. :)

Hofmann said:

Ok, so first of all the "Target audience" argument is irrelevant because "There is a way out" for them, and second "The inclusion of nav points" = "There is a way out", meaning the waypoints ARE the way out. So basically you only have one thing, "The inclusion of nav points" i.e. the compass and waypoints.

I disagree. My first argument was to provide context and show that, if there is any bias in solving navigational challenges, what direction would be favored. The inclusion of nav points is just one mechanism that will aid in there being a way out and, as I stated, I do not believe it is something that works in isolation, i.e. without forcing reverse effect on level design. You don't just tack on nav points on any level and expect it to work. That is, in my opinion, not how things work.

Hofmann said:

Ok, why would the player backtrack(move away from the waypoint) if he wants to reach the waypoint? And if a route circles back on itself, wouldn't the player change hes route when he realizes that he's going in circles and eventually find the right one that leads to the waypoint?

This line of thinking is why I specifically said that the nav point is present for people who cannot navigate without it properly. I am not dissing on these players in any way its just that its, as I started my original reply with, a simple consequence of Doom's target audience. With that in mind, expecting players to solve a "difficult" navigational challenge which would be too troublesome for them normally, which would require a nav point system to be present, which in this case is actually more confusing then helpful, is not a realistic expectation. The level layout will have to support a nav point system actually being beneficial or adding it to the game won't have any purpose.

Hofmann said:

EDIT: Also take a good look at this picture.

I already know that screenshot but its definitely one of my favorites.

While I fully concede this area looks fantastic and I can't wait to play it, I am hesitant to see this as more than a (bigger) box with interesting walkways. The reason for this is in major part because of the navpoint system. If you see a navpoint and, at the same time, you see the route's you can follow to get there, it works out fine.

When you are in enclosed walkways with doors however, it becomes a bit of a different matter because you can no longer see that that walkway your are progressing through does a U turn at the end leading to that navpoint you have been walking away from. As the navigational structure gets hidden from view, the necessity to "bend" the structure to fit the direction of the nav point becomes more pressing.

With that said have you seen the Doom E3 level design analysis via Rage tool kit? It shows that level partly reproduced and some of the alternative routes that are present actually traveled. Its pretty awesome just to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36AGIzC0OI

DooM_RO said:

Exploration was never MANDATORY in Doom, just extremely helpful. Think E1M2, I am assuming it's similar to that.

Chubz already touched on that but I don't feel taking the second level (or any single level really) from a game is really representative to show its level mechanics in their fullest form.

What I hope we get in the level design is a celebration of what is currently possible as I feel that was a big part of the mindset that created the original levels for Doom. For me, Doom's levels are a celebration of what became technically possible at the time. Linedefs that no longer needed to be parallel to the coordinate system, different heights for sectors, different textures, lighting effects. As a result of the world being able to be represented in "so much detail" (for the time) the levels feel like a celebration of possibility. Of course there are lots of secret area's, shortcuts and different paths to the same area's. Exploring the amazing virtual world was a big part of the experience.

With quake the same thing happened. The FPS genre went full 3d. Its levels in turn feel like a celebration of this fact. Lots of verticality, rooms over rooms, walkways, lifts, lots of water, wind pipes for travel etc. Now my point is not we should get wind pipes or anything like that. I just hope we get a similar celebration of possibilities. Doom's level do not feel real by todays standards, yet they don't feel contrived either (to me). I think that is an absolutely amazing accomplishment for a game of that age.

And certainly you can pick out levels from Doom that show that no, they were not "complicated". And someone else could pick out a level that shows they were very "complicated". For me thats not what it's really about though. I think there is an essence to Doom's levels, an specific line of thought, that I hope to see expressed with modern technology carrying the name of Doom(4).

Hofmann said:

If by this you mean this kind of situation:

Yes that is what it essentially boils down to. :)

Hofmann said:

then yes it could be a problem, but that can easily be fixed using more waypoints for example placed like this:

When the player reaches the first waypoint/checkpoint the next one appears and so on until the player eventually reaches the final one. Keep in mind that within the areas/chapters there can be lots of rooms, paths, non-linearity and exploration. The waypoints can be placed any other way, as long as it's not confusing the player. Levels can be non-linear as the originals if the waypoints are placed smart enough, i.e. waypoints don't limit the level design and non-linearity. In this example the areas/chapters are placed in a linear order, but that doesn't have to be the case as well, there could be lots of different non-linear combinations.

Yes, and I fully expect it to work this way in Doom 4 (really I do).

However you have to keep in mind that each nav point is a gate; i.e. one single transfer point to the next area/chapter. So essentially what you have done is recreated the original issue at a different scale. You say that "within the areas/chapters there can be lots of rooms, paths, non-linearity and exploration".

I say we are right back where we started. If each area is of a big enough scale to actually be interesting, the original issue is recreated. The nav point system will fail within the area or chapter that your in, unless that area/chapter your in is designed in according with the nav point system. I.e. the level accomodates the nav point system for it to work.

With that said I want to thank you for this discussion (so far). I find it thoroughly enjoyable to speculate on Doom with people who share the interest (Doomworld is great for that obviously!) and find out more about whats to come and what to expect.

I hope I my expectations turn out to be too low and will end up playing this game with a joyful tear in my eye (that might happen anyway with all the good stuff we did get actual confirmation on). The fact that I have not found any reason to change my expectations does not mean I did not enjoy this discussion.

Lets try to keep this good spirit of discussion alive shall we? :)

[Chezza]

My point of view on exploration and non linear maps is this:

1. I love the option to explore and be rewarded for it but also occasionally heavily challenged (to prevent too much predictability)
2. I don't like getting lost, I hate not knowing what the path will lead me to progress and what won't. Doom tends to do this a lot though.
3. Not a fan of backtracking unless that in a sense is linear and obvious. Some games / maps simply spawn some weak monsters in the correct path to assist in guidance or simply have a door that requires a key you would of inevitably bumped into beforehand.

I feel many Doom maps take the many path option and often bothers me. Everyone praises the abstract designs but only the best ones makes progress obvious and the optional paths lead you back to where you need to be imo.

The compass is an odd choice if the map will be abstract, generally you would expect an open flat terrain to pursue a simple direction.

[MrHofmann]

redrage said:

@Hoffman
Let me start by saying how happy I am that you took it upon yourself to edit your original post. When I read it last evening, I felt rather appalled. In fact, after reading it, I had decided to just not bother posting here anymore. I won't restate what it read or how abrasive it truly was, I am just happy you decided to edit it to what it is now.

Yeah, sorry about that, I was in a jerky mood. Half the reason was my "stop saying shit about my favorite game" attitude, the other half was that whenever a "problem" pops out, someone mindlessly shits on the game and the dev team which starts an avalanche of 20 more who start bitching about it without even thinking, when in fact when you sit down and think about it, you realize that there was no problem to begin with. It's getting really annoying.

redrage said:

Yes, and I fully expect it to work this way in Doom 4 (really I do).

However you have to keep in mind that each nav point is a gate; i.e. one single transfer point to the next area/chapter. So essentially what you have done is recreated the original issue at a different scale. You say that "within the areas/chapters there can be lots of rooms, paths, non-linearity and exploration".

I say we are right back where we started. If each area is of a big enough scale to actually be interesting, the original issue is recreated. The nav point system will fail within the area or chapter that your in, unless that area/chapter your in is designed in according with the nav point system. I.e. the level accomodates the nav point system for it to work.

Yes, by adding waypoints the original issue is not solved but recreated at a different scale, a much smaller scale. In my example the issue was reduced to a 4 times smaller size because of having 4 waypoints, and if we would keep adding waypoints eventually we would reduce the original issue to a trivial one. No matter how complex the level is by adding waypoints and placing them in the right places we would eventually get a waypoint system that could help any member of the "Target audience" navigate through the level with ease.

redrage said:

With that said I want to thank you for this discussion (so far). I find it thoroughly enjoyable to speculate on Doom with people who share the interest (Doomworld is great for that obviously!) and find out more about whats to come and what to expect.

My only intention was to prove that the existence of a waypoint system(and compass) is not evidence of linear level design, but that the complexity/simplicity of that system (which we don't know at this point) could be. Now, i don't know how hard/expensive it is to implement a waypoint system that could cover very complex levels, but based on that I would know whether to expect very complex level design or not.

[MrHofmann]

J.B.R said:

Looks like my suspections were right, microtransactions are possible, great.

No microtrasactions.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pcgameshardware.de%2FDoom-2016-Spiel-56369%2FNews%2FKeine-Mikrotransaktionen-im-Shooter-von-id-Software-1185541%2F&edit-text=&act=url

https://twitter.com/DCDeacon/status/695267634821079040

[Chubzdoomer]

Hofmann said:

No microtrasactions.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pcgameshardware.de%2FDoom-2016-Spiel-56369%2FNews%2FKeine-Mikrotransaktionen-im-Shooter-von-id-Software-1185541%2F&edit-text=&act=url

https://twitter.com/DCDeacon/status/695267634821079040

Not for hack modules, at least.

EDIT: I just found this Tweet, which more or less confirms there will be no microtransactions, period:
https://twitter.com/DCDeacon/status/695386456747962368?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw