[DM] Fight Like Hell - [WIP]

[dg93]

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." ~ Revelation 12:7

I bring to you a new Deathmatch map called War In Hell. Based on the size of the map, it looks ideal for 4 player FFA, 2 on 2 Team DM, and possibly 1 on 1 Duel. I plan on replacing the chainsaw with a railgun weapon using a dehacked file.

The theme of the map: It's loosely based on the biblical story of the battle between good vs evil, except it's not fought in Heaven but in a stronghold in Hell.

Note: This is my first time building a map in ZDoom (Doom in Hexen Format) so there may be some minor glitches that I have not found yet. Unfortunately the scrolling sky effect will not work in Odamex. The Deep water sound effect also doesn't work in both Odamex and ZDaemon. The map is not implemented for jumping. I recommend playtesting this via Zandronum.

Here are some screenshots: Screenshots of the old version

Spoiler

Please give me some feedback, criticism, and suggestions. I want to know the opinions on the aesthetics of the map, item / weapon layout, gameplay, etc...

3/14/2016 Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/download/86qg8hb1c2vt87f/wih_v10.wad

[Doomkid]

I dig this one man, I had fun dueling on it

[dg93]

Doomkid said:

I dig this one man, I had fun dueling on it

Thank you Doomkid. I'm glad you like.

If you could help me edit the color of this gray sky to red, I would appreciate it a lot:http://www.mediafire.com/view/5qb2krzfsedaq7n/REDSKY.png

[Decay]

This map is a significant improvement to your other works, well done.

A few things I noticed immediately though.
#1 Remove all the red torchlights in the general play area. They do nothing but hamper movement. Remove or place into the walls.
#2 Remove the attribute slowing you down in the lava pit
#3 Remove the bars at the teleport destination for the water pit.
#4 Remove the doors; hamper flow.
#5 Make the plasma teleport more obvious
#6 Make the bars by the plasma either wider or a midtexture so you can actually shoot through them
#7 A few places seem imbalanced in terms of weapon distribution. Change out the rocket launcher spawn for something else, and add a SSG or two in the outside. Add a SSG inside and exchange the ssg spawn for a sg spawn. Exchange the cg spawn by the exit for sg.
#8 DO NOT ADD A RAILGUN or I will find you
#9 Make it more obvious what the water pit is for.
#10 Are those sound changes really necessary?

Do these things and I think you have a really great map here. As it stands right now it has great potential, just needs some tweaks and I'd love to play it.

[dg93]

Decay said:

This map is a significant improvement to your other works, well done.

Thank you very much. This means a lot to me.

Decay said:

#1 Remove all the red torchlights in the general play area. They do nothing but hamper movement. Remove or place into the walls.

I agree, they can hamper player movement. I removed them now.

Decay said:

#2 Remove the attribute slowing you down in the lava pit

Ok, I'll try to fix that.

Decay said:

#3 Remove the bars at the teleport destination for the water pit.

Ok.

Decay said:

#4 Remove the doors; hamper flow.

Can I just make them open faster?

Decay said:

#5 Make the plasma teleport more obvious

Ok. I'll see what I can do.

Decay said:

#6 Make the bars by the plasma either wider or a midtexture so you can actually shoot through them

Good idea.

Decay said:

#7 A few places seem imbalanced in terms of weapon distribution. Change out the rocket launcher spawn for something else, and add a SSG or two in the outside. Add a SSG inside and exchange the ssg spawn for a sg spawn. Exchange the cg spawn by the exit for sg.

This is going to be a challenge because I struggle with balancing the weapon placement. I'll see what I can do based on your suggestion.

Decay said:

#8 DO NOT ADD A RAILGUN or I will find you

Ok, no railgun.

Decay said:

#9 Make it more obvious what the water pit is for.

What can I do to make it more obvious?

Decay said:

#10 Are those sound changes really necessary?

A few are, but the rest can be cut.

Decay said:

Do these things and I think you have a really great map here. As it stands right now it has great potential, just needs some tweaks and I'd love to play it.

Thank you Decay. I appreciate the time and effort you put into critiquing my map. I'm hoping it will be good enough to be featured in online tournaments.

[Decay]

For #2 you might just have to remove the deep water entirely. It's not necessary, so I wouldn't sweat it.

#4 I should've been a bit more specific. Yes they hamper flow and could open faster, but also think about when you are actually fighting your opponent. It would be better to be able to duck out the doorway real quick rather than be stuck in a hallway. Having the doors there also mean it's hard to escape any rocket/plasma/bfg spam in the hallway too. If you are adamant on keeping doors, consider adding a walkover linedef that activates them.

For #5 either raise the pit up and give it a teleport texture or use a THING activator; so you actually fall down the pit and teleport when you hit the bottom.

For #9 I want to say gothic dm has a texture with the word BFG on it as a sign. Maybe put that in with an arrow of some sort?

Glad my feedback was helpful.

[Archi]

This one looks cool.

I'd suggest to add a fast lift to the SSG on the west part of the map. Didn't like deep water part, by the way, makes movement too slow.

[everennui]

Decay said:

#4 I should've been a bit more specific. Yes they hamper flow and could open faster, but also think about when you are actually fighting your opponent. It would be better to be able to duck out the doorway real quick rather than be stuck in a hallway. Having the doors there also mean it's hard to escape any rocket/plasma/bfg spam in the hallway too. If you are adamant on keeping doors, consider adding a walkover linedef that activates them.

That's hard to hear. I love my doors! ...and I use 1x24 sectors with a switch on the linedef behind it. I see what you mean about hallways, as I am currently working on a particularly long one right now.

I am two days into mapping, so I am not the best. Please excuse the potentially stupid question: do keys cross over to death match? Some doors - key coordinated - are non-repeatable switches that stay open after engaged. I have been carefully analyzing this map so that there are a few strategic places that offer a good field of view and height, but also have a few defensive shortcomings.

I've got my panties in a bit of a twist about this doors thing. Are doors really a big no-no?

[Decay]

Doors are really niche. Some maps use them well, others do not, and it is usually very dependent on the situation.

Keys do not cross over into DM (try playing some Doom2 maps in DM and you will notice you can open doors requiring keys without them), otherwise players risk spawning in places they cannot escape from.

There are functions that can be used to keep doors open, or require switches from afar to open or close, that you could utilize if you want.

If you have a door that's non-repeatable (stays open), ask yourself if that door is really needed in the first place.

[dg93]

Beta 4: http://www.mediafire.com/download/gc625wz6e4vm5ln/wih_v4.wad

I made some changes based on Decay's feedback.

-Removed torches that block player movement.
-Adjusted the depth of the lava floor by the stairs.
-Removed bars / green slime.
-Created an arrow to make the plasma teleport a little more obvious.
-Removed bars by plasma and replaced with gothic bars allowing rockets / plasma to shoot through.
-Changed the water pit to a lava pit. The deep blue color made the teleport difficult to see so I changed it to red. 

There are a few other miscellaneous adjustments such as the sky texture change from grey to red. The damage from lava has been reduced to the lowest possible damage percentage. Also, weapon sounds have been cut. I will make a separate wad for them.

I still need to make adjustments on the item / weapon placement along with creating linedefs that open the doors when the player walks over. I attempted implement that effect but I wasn't working correctly.

[Decay]

the_miano said:

There are a few other miscellaneous adjustments such as the sky texture change from grey to red. The damage from lava has been reduced to the lowest possible damage percentage. Also, weapon sounds have been cut. I will make a separate wad for them.

I still need to make adjustments on the item / weapon placement along with creating linedefs that open the doors when the player walks over. I attempted implement that effect but I wasn't working correctly.

Yea okay but why does the lava still have the friction (slow down) effect? That was the real shitty aspect of it, not the damage.

Was the damage there for the bfg before? It's dumb, bfg getting should not be a death sentence. As it is, the bfg function favours the opponent anyway. Should've stuck with the water and used GATE4 (the silver one) so the blind could see.

What function were you trying to use for the door?

Weapon layout issues still apply.

I'd also like to point out since you're using bridge things you might as well take item respawning into account and make this a NOS map since OS standard has infinitely tall actors so you're boned by 1993 ways of thinking.

Make the plasma teleport activate via "actor hits floor" actor so you actually fall into the pit instead of pretending to fall into the pit.

[dg93]

Decay said:

Yea okay but why does the lava still have the friction (slow down) effect? That was the real shitty aspect of it, not the damage.

Crap, I forgot to remove the deep water effects. I fixed it now so the friction (slow down) effect is gone.

Decay said:

Was the damage there for the bfg before? It's dumb, bfg getting should not be a death sentence. As it is, the bfg function favours the opponent anyway. Should've stuck with the water and used GATE4 (the silver one) so the blind could see.

It was implemented with the green slime. But I'm changing it to no damage along with changing the lava to blood.

Decay said:

What function were you trying to use for the door?

I think I tried to make a linedef with player walks over (repeatable action) with action 12 (door raise). Movement speed of 30 and close delay of 65 (these speeds are subject to change). Also, with a linedef tag number and sector tag number. For some reason it's not working.

Decay said:

I'd also like to point out since you're using bridge things you might as well take item respawning into account and make this a NOS map since OS standard has infinitely tall actors so you're boned by 1993 ways of thinking.

I'm not sure what you mean by this to be honest.

Decay said:

Make the plasma teleport activate via "actor hits floor" actor so you actually fall into the pit instead of pretending to fall into the pit.

I see in Hexen format, that there is an "actor hits floor" (Thing 9999). How do I implement this? Does it require a dummy sector? A tag number?

[Decay]

You have to work with the actor itself yea. You tag the sector, place the actor in the sector, and assign the action via the thing itself.

Re: bridge things
IE you won't be able to move above or below them because the actors will be infinitely tall with OS flags (usual duel standard). So you'll either want to think of something to bypass this or focus on NOS (new oldschool) or pretend OS (CGI approach).

Re Door
That doesn't make sense. Try to fix it yourself and then send it to me and I'll see what you did wrong.

[dg93]

Decay said:

You have to work with the actor itself yea. You tag the sector, place the actor in the sector, and assign the action via the thing itself.

Re: bridge things
IE you won't be able to move above or below them because the actors will be infinitely tall with OS flags (usual duel standard). So you'll either want to think of something to bypass this or focus on NOS (new oldschool) or pretend OS (CGI approach).

Re Door
That doesn't make sense. Try to fix it yourself and then send it to me and I'll see what you did wrong.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/sav0lab5nnb3ot5/wih_v5.wad

Okay, so I successfully figured out how to make the linedefs open doors by allowing the player to walk over them.

I attempted to make the "actor hits floor" sector, but I don't think it's working. Can you help me out with this one?

[Decay]

Remove the teleport line from that sector and add in the actor (9999). When you select that actor, you have the option to give it an action. Assign the actor what you would assign a line, and there you go.

[dg93]

Decay said:

Remove the teleport line from that sector and add in the actor (9999). When you select that actor, you have the option to give it an action. Assign the actor what you would assign a line, and there you go.

It's still not working.

[Doomkid]

Post a link if you like, that way we can work out exactly what's wrong. I'll be home in an hour so if you're still up I'm happy to do testing!

[dg93]

Doomkid said:

Post a link if you like, that way we can work out exactly what's wrong. I'll be home in an hour so if you're still up I'm happy to do testing!

I already posted one (beta 5) to decay. I'll be home too in an hour, I'm at the gym at the moment.

[Decay]

When I edit the map, it works fine for me. I'm going to make the ASSUMPTION that you're doing it right and the port you're testing it does not support it. But I'll try writing it out step by step.

1: place actor in the blood sector
2: In actor settings, selection action. Put in action: teleport (and fill it in as if it were a linedef).

Oh wait that's all the steps. If you did this, it should work. Test it in zandronum, then zdaemon, then odamex (going from most advanced port to the most basic). Then make your decision from there.

[dg93]

Decay said:

When I edit the map, it works fine for me. I'm going to make the ASSUMPTION that you're doing it right and the port you're testing it does not support it. But I'll try writing it out step by step.

1: place actor in the blood sector
2: In actor settings, selection action. Put in action: teleport (and fill it in as if it were a linedef).

Oh wait that's all the steps. If you did this, it should work. Test it in zandronum, then zdaemon, then odamex (going from most advanced port to the most basic). Then make your decision from there.

I got it to work and I see what I did wrong. I forgot to set Target MapSpotTag settings.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/8s33vwu6x4ncwx4/wih_v6.wad

All what is left to do is adjust the item / weapon balance.

EDIT: Oh I almost forgot, I need to look into the 3D bridge cross compatibility for ZDaemon & Odamex. Hexen Format is a pain in the ass.

[dg93]

Beta 7: http://www.mediafire.com/download/bepg903c0i5z3bt/wih_v7.wad

I adjusted some of the weapon balance:

-Replaced chaingun near the exit with a shotgun
-Replaced the rocket launcher near plasma teleport with a chaingun
-Replaced chaingun near big bloody box with rocket launcher. 

There were also a few other miscellaneous edits:

-Raised walls of the plasma teleport well so that player can fall in instead of running over it. 
-Added a couple of buildings in the outskirts of the map (for detailing not gameplay).
-Fixed a texture offset by one of the big doors.

I would like to playtest this online via Zandronum, ZDaemon, and Odamex.

[Decay]

It's not that ZD and Oda don't support the bridge; it's not a 3d floor, it's midtextures and bridge things, both ports support it. It's the dmflags that you have to contend with. If you want to play it on typical OS duel servers, no port will support it because bridge things are actors and thus will have infinite height both up and down.

Anyway if hit me up on irc i'll play a few rounds with you on zandronum.

Use these flags for a server:

Time Limit:10
Fraglimit: 25
dmflags 2446340
dmflags2 201328132
dmflags3 32
compatflags 272504872
compatflags2 584

[dg93]

Decay said:

It's not that ZD and Oda don't support the bridge; it's not a 3d floor, it's midtextures and bridge things, both ports support it. It's the dmflags that you have to contend with. If you want to play it on typical OS duel servers, no port will support it because bridge things are actors and thus will have infinite height both up and down.

Yes I'm aware. Obviously with Zandronum & ZDaemon the 3D bridge works without any problems. I have tested older betas of this wad with Odamex using the NS settings that allow the 3D bridge to work.

I also notice that the sector colors for the deep bloody water pit don't work on ZDaemon & Odamex. It works in Zandronum though. For it to work in all three ports, does it require some kind of Dehacked file or script? This really isn't my biggest concern, but it would be nice if this aspect of the deep water can be implemented for all three ports.

Also, feel free to pop into #dmstuff on Quakenet once in a while. I'm usally there almost every night. Mr. Cripsy can update the Odamex Westside Connection playtesting server.

[Superluigieth1]

me likey, downloading

[Decay]

the_miano said:

Yes I'm aware. Obviously with Zandronum & ZDaemon the 3D bridge works without any problems. I have tested older betas of this wad with Odamex using the NS settings that allow the 3D bridge to work.

I also notice that the sector colors for the deep bloody water pit don't work on ZDaemon & Odamex. It works in Zandronum though. For it to work in all three ports, does it require some kind of Dehacked file or script? This really isn't my biggest concern, but it would be nice if this aspect of the deep water can be implemented for all three ports.

Also, feel free to pop into #dmstuff on Quakenet once in a while. I'm usally there almost every night. Mr. Cripsy can update the Odamex Westside Connection playtesting server.

No idea. I don't use zd or odamex anymore, I don't like being stuck in 2002 limitations. Never downloading either of those ports again, waste of memory. Also I've popped a few times into #dmstuff and you weren't there. Fetch me from #deathmatch on zanirc when/if you play on zan, otherwise have gl hf.

[capodecima]

More like you cant make good/playble/fun/not vertical like fuck map with vanilla settings. So you need "crutches" like 3D bridges and stuff. :)

[Decay]

capodecima said:

More like you cant make good/playble/fun/not vertical like fuck map with vanilla settings. So you need "crutches" like 3D bridges and stuff. :)

Rofl, this is rich coming from someone who can't map at all and approves of this garbage.

[Marcaek]

capo stuck in the past with the other cavemen

[capodecima]

yet i am junior and you senior nerd here, GJ :D
but on the topic, i played the map its not bad, greenwar1 still op tho :)

[dg93]

Decay said:

Rofl, this is rich coming from someone who can't map at all and approves of this garbage.

My God.... all those texture offsets.... linear layout.... >_<