Some questions about design, source ports, brutal doom

[Quineotio]

I have a few questions that I'm curious about. If you can answer any or all I'll be very happy. Thanks in advance for any answers :)

Do you like and use ZDoom? Personally I think ZDoom is the best looking port, and gives the best compromise between oldschool and modern. I've found that with the hardware accelerated ports, the lighting looks very smooth and bland, whereas with Zdoom you can get almost HDR lighting by contrasting light and dark appropriately. The drop off in lightness over distance is an amazing feature and I think really suits DOOM's atmosphere. If you don't like ZDoom, why?

Which features of Brutal Doom would you like to see more of in brutal doom specific wads? In the wad I'm making, I'm balancing the levels around the changes in monster AI and weapons, but trying to keep the gameplay "features" minimalistic. Is there anything specific that you're yearning for with your Brutal Doom experience?

Is there anything a doom level absolutely NEEDS to have in order to be good?

Do you have a favorite moment in doom? A favorite one off thing that happened to you, or a favorite encounter in a level? What made it good?

Thanks you're awesome :)

[Royal_Sir]

I use Zandronum, a ZDoom derivative. I use it because it's easy to configure and it runs well on my computer. Plus, I do like the lighting like you mentioned best.

Referring to Brutal Doom wads, what I generally look for are the intentional inclusion of Marines, they add a new level of depth to doom that involves planning your squad movements and placement, especially in relation to probable monster traps. It doesn't have to be Squad Simulator, but just having fellow marines really helps with the Brutal Doom atmosphere, in my opinion.

The problem with your third question is that ANYTHING can be used to make a doom level great or bad. I guess the few things most good wads have in common are good lighting, monster placement, and good gameplay. The gameplay and the interaction with the map and monster fights are the most important, and layouts are subjective since anything could be pulled off.

When I think best moments in Doom, I think of certain techbase maps in Claustrophobia, and the first level of BYHAE. Come to think about it, those maps all shared the characteristics that I thought were necessary above. But they were also detailed pretty highly, reflecting the newer school of Doom mapping (I personally prefer detail and plausibility to abstract "oldschool" layouts) which I appreciate.

[Quineotio]

Royal_Sir said:

I use Zandronum, a ZDoom derivative. I use it because it's easy to configure and it runs well on my computer. Plus, I do like the lighting like you mentioned best.

Referring to Brutal Doom wads, what I generally look for are the intentional inclusion of Marines, they add a new level of depth to doom that involves planning your squad movements and placement, especially in relation to probable monster traps. It doesn't have to be Squad Simulator, but just having fellow marines really helps with the Brutal Doom atmosphere, in my opinion.

The problem with your third question is that ANYTHING can be used to make a doom level great or bad. I guess the few things most good wads have in common are good lighting, monster placement, and good gameplay. The gameplay and the interaction with the map and monster fights are the most important, and layouts are subjective since anything could be pulled off.

When I think best moments in Doom, I think of certain techbase maps in Claustrophobia, and the first level of BYHAE. Come to think about it, those maps all shared the characteristics that I thought were necessary above. But they were also detailed pretty highly, reflecting the newer school of Doom mapping (I personally prefer detail and plausibility to abstract "oldschool" layouts) which I appreciate.

Awesome thanks for your reply :) I'll look into making a brutal doom map with marines.

Interesting you say you like the lighting in Zandronum, I actually don't :P It seems to make everything uniform brightness across each sector. I like how in ZDoom it gets darker in the distance.

I guess what I was trying to get at with the third question is, what expectations do people have of doom levels? For some people, being able to 100% is important. For some, exploration. I want to get a sense of what people like. I could have worded the question better.

I'll check out the wads you mentioned.

Maybe I should be asking different questions. Like, what frustrates you about the levels you play?

Thanks again :)

[Chezza]

I enjoyed the Brutal doom map you made. It was a little on the difficult side as I died in the last encounter but I'm just generally a more medium difficulty sort of guy. I legitimately enjoy accumulating above 200 health via BD glory kills and pain mechanics. I think my tastes is very much a niche.

If you talk to people like Suitpee who tends to occasionally stream a Brutal Doom wad, he would say utilize Brutal Doom mechanics to the best of your ability. And I agree. For example, you know how you had all the Imps jumping down from the ledge? That's a good Brutal Doom Mechanic you used.

Actually Quineotio, I encourage you to play my Wad's progress "Operation_UAC" you will see a range of Brutal Doom specific mechanics in place. I even made a couple traps where the Revenant picks up a Imp and throws its corpse at you.

As for Sourceports, I quite like Zdoom and Zanrdonum but I'm more of a user of Zandronum. The primary reasons are that I first got into Doom Mods via Zandronum and I'm suspicious Zdoom doesn't correctly render some of the sloped rooms I created. Otherwise I'm fine with both.

Final note - I am in the middle of redesigning my maps for Sound triggers and Lighting. For far too long I have been relying on Zandronum's dynamic and fading lighting effects as well as dynamic sound effects with distancing. Be aware many people here do not play with modern sourceports so are less likely to enable these advanced effects in the options - resulting in lower quality visuals and even distorting sounds if you specifically made your maps around those options. So my advice, build and test your map all around default doom settings to understand what most players will likely be seeing.

**For me Zandronum has an option to make rooms get darker at a distant just like ZDoom - I guess it's all about what options you select**

[Quineotio]

Hello Chezza :) I actually have played the first couple of your maps, but I haven't had time to get into it more. I like the advanced features you've put in, like the imp killing the marine. I'll play it again when I have time.

I didn't realize there was the light setting in zandronum, thanks :) One of the reasons I've been fairly light on advanced triggers and scripting is to maintain compatibility as much as possible. I want to innovate with gameplay if possible - I think there's a lot of potential there. I've found that you can do a lot with simple tools.

I'm curious what people enjoy about different aspects of gameplay. If you want to see a particular brutal doom feature, what gameplay do you want to come along with that feature? Like Royal_Sir's suggestion about wanting marines. That's an idea that can be translated into a level with a certain type of gameplay that exploits the marines in brutal doom. Or maybe you might want fast paced, intense levels, or you want to use the chainsaw more, or you want the walls roof and floor to be painted with blood by the end of the level.

I'll be putting difficulty levels in the final release of my levels. They still need a lot of work before I worry about that. I plan to make the difficulty settings relevant :)

[Chezza]

Ah I thought in order to run Brutal Doom you needed to use a modern source port - hence limiting your player base to begin with. But I may be wrong.

When it comes to Brutal Doom related features - I would like you to use Brutal Doom animations and monster abilities (but requires some scripting). Not all cases need this though, you could simply put some barrels around some Barons and they will naturally pick it up and throw it at the player (BDV20), have Revenants infighting weaker minions so they throw the corpses at you and set a bunch of pinkies on fire so their burning bodies charge into a room full of barrels forcing the player to run away. These features can be really fun to work with.

I hope you get to try my last few levels - those I'm proud of.

[Quineotio]

I guess you're right about the needing a modern source port :)

I'll definitely get around to playing your levels and I'll leave feedback in your thread :)