The DWmegawad Club plays: Vanguard & Hell Ground & Bloody Steel

[NuclearPotato]

MAP02 - Drowned Shrine - 97-98 kills, 0% secrets
Beautiful, mostly non-linear map. Oddly enough, I had much less trouble with this map than I did with MAP01, though that could be attributed to me playing continuous. Closest I came to death was after entering the interior blue key door, but there was enough health left on the map that I was able to run back, pick up some of the health, enter through the other door, and clear the level from there. I think a bit of the gentle feeling I'm getting stems from the majority of ledge snipers in this level being imps, since they just aren't as pressuring as the hitscanners, even the zombiemen, in that role, even though their fireballs can potentially do more damage.

[dobu gabu maru]

Benjogami said:

Also the first time seriously trying pistol starts.

Enjoy—I used to only play wads continuously until I started doing pistol starts, and now I consider them the best (and intended) way to play a megawad.

MAP02: The first map honestly feels like a prologue compared to this one. This is the kinda stuff I want to play from skillsaw—a lush, verdant temple with excellent verticality and fun ways to traverse its stony structures. The traps are kinda toothless but it’s fine for being an early map in the set; I'm mostly enamored by the layout of the area and the sections with the vines hanging from the ceiling. Plus the Castlevania midi does a lot to strengthen the mysterious mood the map has. Would've been the optimal opener, in my opinion!

[Benjogami]

dobu gabu maru said:

Enjoy—I used to only play wads continuously until I started doing pistol starts, and now I consider them the best (and intended) way to play a megawad.

Yeah, I always knew that pistol starts are an essential design consideration for any decent map, and now I'm playing BTSX continuously and I have boatloads of ammo, and I'm like... why am I playing it this way if it was designed for pistol starts?! So this will probably be the new way that I play.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP01: Overgrown Sepulcher
100% kills, 1/1 secret

Really tiny map here, but the start is very nice visually - others have mentioned it, but the use of the step texture to make a coffin lid with fake shadow is worth repeating. I'm always a sucker for vines, though aside from that the level is a little underwhelming for me visually (almost all grey). Not much to say gameplay-wise, the most dangerous enemy will likely be the teleporting sergeant.

MAP02: Drowned Shrine
100% kills, 2/2 secrets

Still pretty easy, though I know things will ramp up soon. I like the look of this one a lot, good combination of grey, brown, green and blue. I actually found the progression a wee bit confusing here, as I basically bumbled upon the red key by chance (hard to see it in the small window, blocked a bit by the window dressing, I came across it after finding a way out after jumping down for the rocket box) and I only found the yellow key by process of elimination for "where have I not been yet?"

So yeah, pretty easy, though I do think the mancubus near the start is a great example of good monster placement. There's no reason the player can't fight him or run past him if he wants, but his mere presence made me think "eh, I'll go the other way" and it subtly pushes the player into finding better weapons first (in this case, the SSG).

[rehelekretep]

map02 UV max pistol start

really fun map - i liked the archvile surprise. i also liked the teasing of the secrets put in open view (i really dislike humping wall secrets). also loving the jungle temple vibe still

K 100
S 100

[Outrageous Videos]

Map 01: Overgrown Sepulcher
Very small jungle themed map with plutonia style vines hanging from the ceiling.
Easy and fun first map

[Outrageous Videos]

Map02: Drowned Shrine
A non linear jungle map with very obvious inspirations from plutonia 2
A bit of a step up in difficulty but not much
A very hard to find exit

[Outrageous Videos]

Map03: 13 Angry Archviles
Very similar style to the last two.
No change in difficulty.
Two Archviles teleport in everytime you grab a key/powerup but there is always cover.

[Naan]

MAP03 - "13 Angry Archviles” - UVMax on third try

What would be a Plutonia style episode wouldn't be complete without a Hunted gimmick throwback? As the title implies, there's 13 of them that will spawn at key moments (pun not intended) throughout the map, each time with zombies to reanimate and columns being raised to offer cover. That's probably why the map is set on a blocky basement, though the southern outside zone is pretty.

The only tense moment is the YK zone with the platforms that rises and lowers, with monsters spawning conveniently between Doomguy and the above archviles so they protect them by eating shots. Using the rocket launcher could be very dangerous with the lost souls spawning.

[Shanoa]

dobu gabu maru said:

Enjoy—I used to only play wads continuously until I started doing pistol starts, and now I consider them the best (and intended) way to play a megawad.

I always prefered continuous, while its less challenging it avoid me the tedium of having to restart a map who knows how many times when i simply wanna sit and have fun. (Especially the later map of vanguard like, superstructure)

[Salt-Man Z]

Shanoa said:

I always prefered continuous, while its less challenging it avoid me the tedium of having to restart a map who knows how many times when i simply wanna sit and have fun. (Especially the later map of vanguard like, superstructure)

I think that's more a difference in save/no-saves, though. You could easily play with pistol-start and saves. (I do this sometimes for certain WADs, like the Congestion series.)

That said, your reasoning is the same as mine for preferring continuous/saves.

[baja blast rd.]

MAP02: "Drowned Shrine"

What I love about this map is the layout. Broad 45-degree-angled lines, clever 3D traversal (jumps, platforms, etc.). It's also a fun map for some Tyson practice: the purely cinematic caco 'traps' are more fun if you try to punch the cacos while jumping out of midair or whatever; and the scattering of HKs are usually situated in places that make them slightly awkward to punch out. I used the imp area for practicing some important TimeofDeathing practice (dodging fireballs like a boss and killing two or three imps per SSG blast, the particular way he does, which is done in a slightly different manner than Okuploking and happens to suit my style a lot better).

I'm not a huge fan of the small gray brick textures, but this is a really good looking map anyway. One thing about skillsaw is that many of his maps are a great object lesson in making 'easy' maps fun. He achieves that by 1) providing ample resources in maps that might be tough with a stingier balance. (This one not so much, unless we're talking about stinginess to the point of near-healthlessness and requiring the berserk for most things. But the projectile hell with scattered hitscanners can still punish you if you, for example, decide to stand stock-still for a few seconds -- forcing you to at least pay attention.) And by 2) traps. Traps are fun. The thing about a skillsaw trap is half of them might be predictable on a general scale (as in, they are clearly going to happen), but there's often one or two sneaky little aspects to them. The SSG is clearly boobytrapped, right, and that suspicious-looking vine box is surely going to pop open . . . but focus on that, and there's a chaingunner right behind you trololol. A decent amount of skillsaw's traps are less predictable, however, e.g. the casual tripwire en route to the green armor.

So yeah, that's a nice map for ya.

[Salt-Man Z]

MAP02: Drowned Shrine
15:07 | 100% everything

First off: holy Hannah, is this some gorgeous background music. Just beautiful. So is the level itself: I wouldn't have been able to put a finger on it myself until rdwpa just pointed it out, but those 45-degree angles (which skillsaw frequently employs) are just so visually-pleasing in a Doom map. Particularly with all the different tiers of play involved here. As for gameplay, nothing too strenuous, although I did manage to take a lot of early damage due to the widespread general opposition at the start. Part of my way (in my mind) of balancing my continuous/saves playstyle is to feel free to save even when down in the single-digit health range* which I did here, making an early scramble for health a pretty desperate deal. Once I grabbed the SSG, though, even at half-strength things proceeded pretty smoothly. Oddly (or perhaps not) both times I've played this map I've gotten easily lost, having had to check the map numerous times to figure out where I was going and how to get there. A minor complaint though, for this kind of fun.

*Yes, it means I can just restart from that save point, but it also often makes progressing from that point harder than it would normally be.

[Shanoa]

Salt-Man Z said:

I think that's more a difference in save/no-saves, though. You could easily play with pistol-start and saves. (I do this sometimes for certain WADs, like the Congestion series.)

That said, your reasoning is the same as mine for preferring continuous/saves.

Aye, i try "not" to save when i play maps but there're some level where i'd hate to die for a stupid reason and restart the WHOLE level.

I should try Pistol start + saves, t'would be a good way to improve even more.

[PsychoGoatee]

MAP02 - "Drowned Shrine”

Pretty cool, nice design, my brain is asleep I think so it took me a bit to figure out a couple things to progress. Definitely a looker.


MAP03 - "13 Angry Archviles”

This map I liked even more, just had a great gameplay flow to it.

By the way I switched over to HNTR, just seems like a good idea what with there being slaughter maps later in the wad. Playing it safe, still plenty of challenge for me. HNTR looks like "HUNTER", sounds kind of badass when you think about it.

[baja blast rd.]

MAP03: "13 Angry Archviles"

One notable skillsawism is that every one in a while he makes a map where the layout is workmanlike, to put it mildly. Demon of the Well would twiddle his mustache and call it "speedmappy". There isn't even a secret. ;) The layout is basically a group of rectangles. It's really fun, however, because dual-AVfights4lyfe.

This map would still be too cheesable in many spots to be difficult if you took away a lot of the surplus spheres, but it's comfortably within skillsaw's "fun easy" mold.

Here's a silly little demo.

[Spectre01]

Alright, let's get this going. UV-Max, pistol start, out of combat saving and no loading unless dead.

Map 1

Not much to say about this one as it's a very short and punchy map. Grabbing the chaingun is recommended as there are quite a bit of hitscanners that are not too fun to punch out. Also surprise Revenant! The visuals are very Plutonia jungle temple-esque which continue through the first 5 levels.

Map 2

A larger and meatier map than the first with the SSG trap being quite nasty with no armour and a chaingunner appearing behind you. Great choice of music too to add to the atmosphere.

Map 3

As someone who played Valiant before Vanguard the name and starting room is immediately familiar. The hardest section was the small yard with the rising pillars, which is best handled by camping the upper left corner under the Archviles where they can't hit you. Much safer than moving between pillars as it's easy to get caught by a blast if they don't sync their attacks. The same encounter is present in Valiant e2m2 with the major changes being the damaging floor and time limiting rad suit and the Vile ledge being a lot lower, preventing any pillar-ignoring cheese tactics. I also ended up missing the rocket launcher room completely before collecting 3 keys and wondering why I'm missing over 10 enemies despite the map having 0 secrets and grabbing all 4 items.

Comparing this map to the one in Valiant also shows just how much Skillsaw improved as it's on a whole other level from an atmospheric, visual and gameplay perspective.

[baja blast rd.]

Yeah the dodging is also a bit counterintuitive at times because you can hide behind a pillar that looks safe but ends up lowering just enough to let a vile hit get through. I think you're supposed to switch between the pillars proactively so the viles rarely even target you in the first place. Nothing too demanding, of course, but it has quite a bit more damage potential than the other vile setups played honestly.

[Budoka]

Magnusblitz said:

combination of grey, brown, green and blue

Only in this case, there's very little brown and a lot of the other three, which is rather unlike Plutonia and very much to my satisfaction.

rdwpa said:

One thing about skillsaw is that many of his maps are a great object lesson in making 'easy' maps fun.

Very true, though as we're going to see with E3 or can see in Aeternum and Valiant, he's very much capable of making genuinely hard maps if that's what he wants to do... and as it turns out, they're just as fun.

Alright.

Vanguard MAP03 : 13 Angry Archviles – Triple 100% in 12 :37 without saving, two deaths

A bit of trivia : according to his own words to the Doom Radio crew, Skillsaw was inspired to make this map because he felt like he had made poor use of Archviles in his previous works.

Now, this is of course the spiritual predecessor to Valiant’s « 14 Angrier Archviles », although this map is a lot more straightforward. Valiant as a whole borrows a lot from Skillsaw’s 2011 outings, but more on that later.

Anyway, we’ve got a series of isolated fights, each one involving two Archviles and a selection of other monsters. Some guard the keys to the exit door, other guard weapons or power-ups, and you can tackle them in whatever order you want. So it’s pick your poison, but eventually you’ll drink them all, or at least most. Once you’re done with that, there are still a couple surprises waiting…

Damn it, I forgot just how ruthless this map can be to those who fail to keep their cool. But no matter how many times I screw it up, it’s never all that frustrating because I know I can beat it and I know it’s all about skill, and most of all about strategy. And speaking of all that… excellent midi choice here.

I was going to chose a favorite and least favorite encounter, but I guess it’s not that easy to decide. Meh, frankly, the first fight and the blue key fight can be a little awkward.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP03 13 Angry Archviles

just what I wanted, NOT. the virtual gimmick level with setpieces and archviles, where anything could spell a fiery blast. let's start out with the yellow key. timing and luck can avoid those things while I kill the imps. the rocket launcher and megasphere also are guarded in cramped locations. the red and blue keys are okay as well. I'm personally not a fan of archies coming from two sides and I never will be.

sometimes I wonder where saw's style ends up between levels. I get comfortable after tyson-lite MAP01 with the mostly standard stuff in MAP02, and then I try to prepare for an inevitable vile ambush in MAP03 only to either potentially waste a good shot on a hitscanner or switch weapons too slowly to give enemies the free hit. level layouts don't help matters for me since I am in the middle of pincers in these maps.

am I paranoid?

[joe-ilya]

3

Best AV use I ever saw. Small nutty map with a simple yet effective 3-key door progression.

5/5

[Katamori]

I just want to note that Hell Ground was indescribably amazing - Bloody Steel, on the other hands, bleeds out heavily on nearly-impossible and exhausting gameplay.

BigMemka spent more than two years making those map but almost a waste of time since he didn't playtest them properly - I'm sure of it. I'm saying almost because visually, all the maps are great.

Vanguard needs no comment; I had a childish and blind worship towards skillsaw when he released that - I was around 16 at that time.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP03: 13 Angry Archviles
100% kills, no map secrets

Hmm, didn't actually like this level as much as I thought I would. It's a bit blockier than the other maps, centered more on gameplay setups with the Arch-Viles. I liked the first battle in the entryway with plenty of corpses and ways to flank, and the yellow key battle is certainly a novel one with the constantly moving pillars forcing moving cover. But the rest of the fights were a bit underwhelming and pretty much felt like "here's a couple of columns for cover, fight two AVs" repeated ad naseum. This might be an effect of having played the better map (14 Angrier Archviles) first, unfortunately.

[AnonimVio]

I need to say that those wads are all very unique, but Hell Ground is one of the most creative wads I've ever seen. Absolutely amazing, I wish Eternal would make something like that again.

[NuclearPotato]

MAP03 - 13 Angry Archviles - 85% kills

Missed the megasphere trap the first go-around, hence only 85%.

This level was the first one where I fell back on reloading saves; I take no chances when it comes to archviles. At some point I should try doing a "continuous 'till you die" run of something, but I digress.

Most of the challenge of the level comes from avoiding the attacks of the titular archviles, with trying to tangle with them in cramped corners bringing a little sub-theme underneath. Those cramped corridors proved to be my downfall more than once, since the main method I used against the viles tended to be the rocket launcher. I'm sure things would've gone smoother if I had been SS'ing the place up. No point in comparing this to its sequel; they honestly aren't that similar outside of the main gimmick.

EDIT: I went back and pistol started it without any saves. Took a couple tries, but I managed to clear it with 200% health and 100% kills (well, 134% kills, thanks to the archies). Playing things patiently with the Super Shotty made a whole world of difference compared to my continuous run.

[scifista42]

MAP02 - "Drowned Shrine”

The previous map was impressive, this one is awe-inspiring. Clever interconnections, stylish architecture and vines, smoothly balanced for fun and potentially fast gameplay. I feel there's too much ammo, that's the only negative point I can make about this map.

[Outrageous Videos]

Map04: Hangman's Paradise
Pretty open castle themed map
The difficulty is stepped up a small bit due to there being a large ammount of chaingunners throughout the level

[rehelekretep]

map03 uv max / pistol start

enjoyable with the archviles, never felt unfair. however the theme just felt under-developed. im not sure if thats because with the environments there was always a corner to hide around so they never felt particularly threatening (apart from the pit section which was pretty good).

K 100
S 100
T 12:something as i spent about 2 minutes looking for a secret before noticing that the secrets counter was 0/0 not 0/1!

[joe-ilya]

4

Haha, it's called like this because of all the hanging bodies at the start.

Even with the same three key door this map manages to feel fresh, more height and nice small ruins. So far this wad is better 10x times more than Hell revealed.

6/5

[Pirx]

rileymartin said:

I gotta ask which high res textures do you mean there? I tried a few of the packs and they only seem to work with the IWADs and screw with PWAD custom textures.

Anyways, though slightly disappointed about the lack of Bloodstain this month, I do enjoy Vanguard and Hell Ground so it should be fun replaying them with pistol start.

apparently the newest version is here: https://github.com/KuriKai/DHTP
(Latest version 20150723)

gives errors with the small candles at the baron's shrine in map01 of vanguard for example, they change rapidly between 2 types of candle, and i didn't even notice this...
(my older version does too, btw)