The DWmegawad Club plays: Eternal Doom

[Pirx]

agree it's a gorgeous looking map. another cathedral under the dark blue sky (this time a hellish-gothic, not a modern one). you're under pressure from the first steps due to these fucking chaingunners in the tower (they're becoming to me what revenants are to suitepee). there's a shotgun, a rocket launcher (from a secret) and a berserk pack given, and a welcome party with barons, souls and chaingunners to account for the weakness of each weapon. pretty fiendish. next inside the cathedral: stay away from the central part as reverend cyber is playing turret. inside there's more of these chaingunners and skulls. and these switches one has to find. i'll finish this one when i'm fresher, seems such a good map.

[Naan]

MAP07 - “The Abbey” by Paul Schmitz

Yeah, I really don't have much time to spare lately so I'm going to make some cherrypicks.

I didn't thought this map was puzzlefull in any metric, and the most important secrets are not so hard to get, as they are paralleled and marked. That invisible sphere would not be missed a lot, though it could be useful in getting the cyberdemon and the spidermind to fight each other without taking much damage, but after a rough start shotgunning cacos and getting to the SSG secret, most encounters are really bearable.

I think I have a minor bug of having a dozen monsters that have not teleported as I reach the exit switch. GZDoom compatibility bug or did I manage to avoid some trigger?

Not the most memorable of them all (MAP03, 04 and 08 are superior to me).

[Demon of the Well]

Cynical: you may have also been exposed to the idea via Eternal's Epic II at some point, as the majestic "Ogdoad" from that set (m27 or m28, I think?) is a loving tribute to "Darkdome."

Also, regarding "Dawn of the Dead", straferunning to the yellow key is actually a bit of a sequence-break as well (albeit not a fatal one or anything); eventually you're supposed to teleport into the raised pool where it sits via other means, late in the proceedings. I believe plums is right in surmising that Couleur was probably not aware of the extent of the doom marine's full movement capabilities and of the possibility of certain simulation-based exploits (like the BK 'grab'), which isn't too surprising considering the vintage of this set.

Map 12 -- Darkdome - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets
Sverre's take on Eternal Doom's signature dark age castle/fortress theme is one of the set's most renowned and most defining maps, a location-based adventure of considerable scale which served as the finale to the original iteration of Eternal Doom. It is also, sadly, his final map in the complete megaWAD, but suffice to say he makes it count.

The setting here is a mysterious floating bastion of dour black granite out at sea; I suppose it's perfectly fair to call it another 'castle' (and it does have a moat system and a few other castle-y features), though looking around inside of it always gives me the impression that it's really more of a massive occult cathedral or monastery than anything, with a striking tiled and pillared vaulted nave, a mystic shrine to the elemental energies of fire and water, an isolated tower with a sacrificial altar to dark powers, an elaborate keep protecting a key for unlocking the way to the northern sanctum where a crawling blasphemy plots and ruminates, and more. From the outside, it's not actually that much to look at--huge expanses of cold, unadorned masonry with occasional gantries or terraces around the main tower exteriors--but inside there's a persistently humbling sense of scale in the major chambers contrasted with intricate hidden passages and other interconnections between them, such that each area of the structure is easy to visually distinguish from others despite a generally rather spartan sense of decor, a fine example of detailing through architecture proper (with the occasional assistance of purpose-made texture assets, ala the arched midtextures) rather than through surface elaborations such as borders and trim and reliefs and the like. Bit of an elephant in the room is that there never really is anything one can readily identify as a dome on display (this being 1997 and idtech1 and all), but their presence is credibly suggested in a few places by networks of heavy joists and supports in the ceilings of certain large chambers, and perhaps even moreso by the webs of shadow these cast on the immaculate tile floors.

What I really like about the overall presentation here is that like map 04, it really nails the particular sort of 'realism' that works well in the Doom engine, that being to convey readily identifiable real-world structures in a heavily stylized way that synergizes with the game's standard gameplay (rather than against it, ala the legions of myoffice or myhouse or myschool or mytown maps) while also making the environment feel varied and multi-featured. There's a definite sense of infiltration to the level progression, such that it doesn't feel so much like you're just moving through Corridor X in order to reach Objective Y, but rather that you're finding all sorts of clever 'ins' to breach a heavily fortified location.

As is the mapset's general tendency, much of the combat is again strictly incidental in nature, though moderately varied given the differences in environmental structure, ranging from the dangerous hitscan killing field outside of the initial gatehouse to straightforward arcade-style encounters with mid/upper-tier monsters in the larger chambers (the cyberdemon overwatch in the nave and the vile + revenants combo in the fire shrine being most notable) to tighter claustrophobic scuffles in the various fortress arteries. As is Kvernmo's wont, however, these more direct encounters are complemented by a steady procession of devious traps; a favored barb is to use the characteristic ED line-of-sight closets to port shotgunners or bruiser types right next to you at some odd moments, and the use of monster-only teleport lines to have foes suddenly flank you in an instant is a recurring theme as well (really like the way this is done for the cistern revenants, an encounter that many will instinctively try to camp). More elaborately designed encounters occasionally punctuate proceedings, as well, though--I believe I took the most damage in the deadfall trap en route to the sacrificial tower (mainly due to my insistence on using the berserk fist as my weapon), but of course the biggest fight is the clever pair of yin/yang phasing battles in the final sanctum, pitting you first against a cyberdemon who flickers all around you and then giving the opportunity to pull the same trick on the spider mastermind. Overall, it is again not a terribly difficult map, but it is noticeably more tightly balanced in terms of health/ammo pickups than many of the other recent maps, and will not tolerate inattentive or sloppy play to anywhere near the same degree.

It's hard for me to gauge what the general reaction to level progression here might be. I'd say it actually guides you along fairly well in that there's usually only really one (new) place you can actually go at any given time, though getting there is of course not usually as simple as opening an obvious door or hitting a switch in plain sight. None of the mandatory progression is truly 'secret' in the way of something like map 11, for example, but you will have to use your brain and your eyes and be methodical as you explore, or soon enough find yourself stuck. The biggest stumbling block for generations of players has surely been the subquest to backtrack and hit all 8 of the yellow switches after actualizing them upon first reaching the YK's thaumaturgic keep. Assuming you've been thorough, you'll have seen all 8 of these at least once on your way towards the keep, but of course remembering where they all are at that point is not so easy a feat, hence why I suggest the use of the automap. I think this extra quest adds a brilliant bit of flavor and relevant extra mileage to the level (since most of the switches are boobytrapped in some way once you return), and remains one of the most memorable progression schemes I've encountered in my many years of playing PWADs, but again I can see how it could feel like just crassly rubbing salt into an open wound for those already struggling with navigating the seemingly endless string of big, complex maps.

[Crusader No Regret]

I will maintain my stance that Eternal Doom calls for two months to really experience since eternal is a fitting description for how long some of these maps take to finish.

More quick hits:

Map 8: Remembered the cyberdemon gimmick and not much else. For the easiest time, kill it on the second appearance after it finishes infighting with the spider and friends. The first pain elemental is mostly harmless though I still had fun picking it and its lost soul support off from the safety of the fence. No invulnerabilty on UV for the last room so tough it out or take out the cyber early.

What I most remember from revving this map up again has little to do with the map really. I was door camping at the blue door and decided to punch air just in case there were monsters on the other side that would wake up. Inadvertently splattered an imp on the other side. Oh, so that's what Aqfaq meant by "Primary weapon: DOOR" in that marathon AV13 Tyson...

Map 9: First time I played this, I got stuck in the final courtyard because I didn't find that one X switch. Armed with advance knowledge from past playthroughs, thought this would be an easy conquest. I do feel it's actually easier to play aggressively since my repeated deaths all came from trying to provoke infights. Terminate nearby hitscanners with extreme prejudice for the best chances of survival without a mid map save.

Maybe I'm in the minority but I like how this map doesn't lean on setpiece encounters, having had my fill of them from Sunlust. Wandering monsters, especially cacodemon, that can go nearly everywhere they can reach make for the more interesting journey.

Feel like giving a shoutout to the sequel in ED4. The demons have made extensive renovations since the marine last visited. The dungeon, among other place, has a massive expansion and the illusion of a multi-level fortress make this one of my favorite maps to have played.

[Salt-Man Z]

MAP09: Forlorn Fortress
38:16 | 100% everything

Ah, the first Couleur map! I like the layout, though it bothers me a bit that that double-stairway reminds so much of the end of Heretic's E1M5. Obscure progression is the name of the game, but at least I managed to muddle my way through quickly enough. Knowing to look out for X switches and to click anything that looks like it might be suspicious is key. (And map-aided wall-hugging is a legit skill, I tells ya.) Anyway, it looks gorgeous, and I was surprised by some good ambushes. Not a big fan of the random jump-out-a-window-hey-there's-the-exit that gives you one (non-cheating) crack at that soulsphere. I got it legitimately, but then noclipped back out to get the sphere I had been saving from the start of the yellow key area. Good map. On a related note, a couple years ago after I played through this WAD and posted about it in the What Are You Playing Now? thread, I got a nice email from Mr. Couleur that I read on my phone, and, not wanting to try typing out a thoughtful response on a mobile device, I didn't answer it right away—and then forgot about it for a number of months, at which point I felt embarrassed about not responding. So Chris, if you're reading this: sorry, man!


MAP10: Crimson Tide
29:41 | 100% Kills | 90% Items | 100% Secrets

And here we just go Full Heretic. Glad I didn't spend any real time trying to find that last item, since there it is sitting out in the "fake" exit area (and presumably impossible to reach.) Another fun castle level, weird that they load a ton of shells and health back at the map start, thankfully I didn't have to run back there to restock more than once or twice (including filling up before exiting.) A super hectic start, what with the chaingun turrets in the wide open, and the cacoswarms. I made the mistake of ducking around the castle to the left—the side with a box of shells that I didn't need; if I had ducked around to the right I would have gotten some much-needed health. I did only die once, though, and that was upon taking the teleport into the upper exit area right into a baron's face. My favorite part was how the authors took the symmetrical aspects of the castle layout (front turrets, chapel balconies), and then made the routes to them asymmetrical. Neat. I also liked how the main arena repopulated every time, though it quickly became predictable.

[Cynical]

Demon of the Well said:

Cynical: you may have also been exposed to the idea via Eternal's Epic II at some point, as the majestic "Ogdoad" from that set (m27 or m28, I think?) is a loving tribute to "Darkdome."

Nope, Epic II is another one where I've always quit out of annoyance less than half way through, heh.

I just know about Darkdome's "yellow switch bullshit" from having seen it referenced multiple times in my years of mostly lurking around these parts.

(I tried giving the map a spin, just out of curiosity, but couldn't even figure out how to get that far; I got stuck in the moat. Found the RL secret, but couldn't raise the bridge.)

EDIT: Gave it another spin, made it a bit further, died to an invisible arch-vile(???) Being a huge fan of the classic first-person dungeon crawler genre, I can respect what this level is trying to do... but damn, is it doing it badly. Part of that is just that the Doom engine doesn't give you a lot of room to create interesting puzzles of that nature, so there really isn't much to work with other than "lol find the switch", but even so, it's still been done a lot better by some more modern maps -- DVii 21 comes to mind instantly, for instance.

[Ribbiks]

12: fda. Oh god, this map. (Not shown in fda: me floundering about the open starting area trying to get across that damn bridge while being plucked at by chaingunners.. for 20 minutes.. After that I restarted and decided I'd be playing with saves)

great map! There were only a few moments where I felt a bit lost, the conveyance was pretty clear overall. I tried to keep track of where all those yellow switches were in my head but I ended up forgetting a few and wandering around a near-empty map towards the end. Much like m04 this map has an extremely strong progression and sense of place. You can really feel like the map is building up as you work your way through, and the teleporty boss room was an interesting conclusion (again, reminded me of m04). Difficulty seemed quite a bit higher than the preceding maps (seems Sverre likes it a bit rougher than the other authors), which makes it a bit more fun for me personally.

Best map thus far.

[Varis Alpha]

for those having trouble keeping track of the yellow skull switches, you might consider marking your map on their wherabouts to save you some backtracking time. that might help a bit.

[antares031]

MAP12 - Darkdome
ZDoom, UV - Pistol Start, KIS(%): 99/85/75

The finale of Eternal Doom I, and this level deserves it. This level is yet another giant medieval castle with clever, but tricky monster placements. One thing I need to complain is the chaingunner turrets at the top of keeps. I don't know about you guys, but I hate the chaingunner turrets whenever I can't aim them properly with vertical auto-aiming because of the distance while the chaingunners keep spraying bullets from above. Anyway, I do like the non-linear progression of this level which I should keep exploring the map to get better arsenals and supplies... And here comes another intimidating roar of Cyberdemon, damn. To make the situation worse, there are hidden arch-viles around the hall, hidden behind the flaming walls. After some combats and another combats, you'll eventually reach the yellow skull room with eight skull switches. Do you remember every yellow switches scattered around the castle? Well, now it's time to backtrack the whole area to activate the switches. I can't tell you that this kind of level design is good or bad, but at least it worked for me this time. Although I think that backtracking the entire castle, including the starting point, may be a little bit annoying to anyone who is not good at navigating complex fortress. The final encounter against Cyberdemon seems tricky. But once you know how to call for help to another boss monster, it's another monster infighting show for you.

P.S.: If anybody knows how to kill the Baron of Hell(Thing 177) hidden behind the wall, please let me know.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP12 DarkDome

this is the first map in Eternal Doom that always takes over 10 minutes for me to complete. I can speedrun and even max through the other levels before it under that time frame (MAP04 being the hardest), but this one I take my time on, as it's certainly a puzzler. While not akin to MAP26 of Alien Vendetta which shares its name, DarkDome is a particularly large castle, one that needs a bridge raised around giant torches (which are just scrolling linedefs for the fire textures), and the way to do so involves the side paths. yet once you do that, it takes an interesting point of guesswork to figure out, "Hey, the switch is right next to where the bridge would be."

The music track is atmospheric to go along with the map in question, even though it's as short as the rest of the soundtrack. As long as it fits well I mean. Whatever. there was one extra switch to watch out for, in the little hut thingie at the start. It's a greyed-out skull switch with yellow markings around it. No way to press it now, but it's something to save for later. Indeed, DarkDome was meant to be played with automap markers, one of the least-used things in any Doom game, probably because no one wants an FPS and a puzzler at the same time these days. After raising that bridge, I still can't enter the castle yet. More sidequests. The eastern path has an X panel, but it doesn't seem to tell me if I press it or not (I know I pressed it though, since I heard the switch sound). That panel opened up the real entrance. The left path leads to another greyed-out switch for later.

The entrance doesn't have anything too cool, although you can telefrag zombies by stepping into torches. And get two secrets here. Upon the next door and the set of steps, here we are in the impressive main hall with the cyberdemon at the top of the rocks here. Some housecleaning is in order, not much to be done about the cyber though, as he's a sitting duck. There's an archie behind an appropriate fire pit, while there's a broken window for our progression later on.

The whole left side of the castle has a few interesting bits, not so much though. Three greyed-out switches and a blue key to grab though. The red key was easily retrieved after the blue door (there's supposed to be a cyberdemon at this point on higher settings). After the red door we have a glimpse of the yellow door, but not what's beyond. The fire pit following is a rather passively nasty ambush, since the enemies rise up slowly. The green-walled area following also holds a particularly nasty ambush. The yellow key room is where things come together.

Here, it's time for figuring out how to get that damn key, and you can't just jump to it after triggering the spiral staircase around the square block. The switch on top actually activates all the other previous switches. Yep, backtracking. If you've been marking stuff on the map, there should be marks 0-7, that way you know where everything is. Few monsters greet the player, usually by TNT-style teleports. Once those 8 switches have been pressed, it's back to the key room to press 8 MORE SWITCHES! And then it's the yellow key. Also there's a secret available now. After that, it's time to head through the yellow door, and the end room is quite a disappointment. Find switch, shoot switch, make way through teleporters, then hit switch to open up exit portal. It's an easy telefrag against the spiderdemon.

Overall, really large work done here. One baron is stuck inside the walls and couldn't be killed by the way. What are we supposed to do for this month by the way? The secret levels aren't actually secret here because the exits on 15 and 31 are the secret exits, so there's no skipping levels. Here's what I think for one day:

MAP13, MAP14, and MAP15. 13's a sort of break level, 14's a gimmick map but not too big, 15's pretty big.
MAP16, MAP17, MAP18. All very short maps by Eternal Doom standards.

[T-Rex]

Hey guys, continuing on where I left off with Eternal Doom.

Map11: Dawn of the Dead (Chris Couleur)
100% kills, 100% items, 100% secrets
Time: 18:44

Chris Couleur returns with his second offering, and boy, is it a lengthy one. It's another castle map, but unlike Forlorn Fortress, this one is very nonlinear. It also has some rather cryptic puzzles, which are actually not so bad once you figure out that some walls in flashing sectors or those with cracks in them might be hinting secret rooms, or in the case of the blue and red keys, progress. This map is all about using secret logic in other to go further in the map, so you really have to pay close attention for visual clues and such, or you will get lost. However, once you obtain the red and blue keys, everything falls into place to some degree. It's important to search and hit every switch you see, and also use the automap to check for any changes in the layout, such as when you hit one of the blue switches behind the blue doors, they lower the red skull bars to the red switch. Thankfully, monsters pop up everywhere, so this keeps the map from becoming dull and tedious, which thankfully doesn't thanks to Couleur's knack for making stunning architecture and geometry. Getting the yellow key requires you to enter a teleporter that is revealed by activating a switch behind the red door, so there's some backtracking involved as you have to go back to the red door for the yellow door. It's here where we finally get the BFG9000, which comes in really handy for the final area, which first starts off with jumping down in the large chamber, going back with the aid of a teleporter, then hit some switches that get revealed, which culminates in a fight with two cyberdemons, but just when you thought you're done with them, you have to battle with one more. Be sure to check the glass windows for a few secrets, which aren't that hard to find. So that's Dawn of the Dead, another fantastic map by Chris Couleur, but man is it confusing, and it will take awhile. The music track for this map is one of my all-time favourites.

Yeah, the style of gameplay is very similar to Hexen, with hitting switches and you have no idea what they have done as most of the time they opened up places at the other side of the map and such. And then in the case of maps by Jim Flynn and especially Bob Evans, you get these maps that have puzzles within puzzles, ala the movie Inception. Much like with Hell Revealed (considering how some here disliked it back when the club was playing it), Eternal Doom is an acquired taste, and you need to be in the right mindset in order to appreciate and enjoy the megawad.

Oh, and to answer plums's question, no, Couleur never made any maps outside of Eternal Doom, least to our knowledge. Would be neat to see what kind of maps would he make for regular Doom and Doom 2, as I find his maps to be one of the most memorable and enjoyable due to how well he makes castle-themed maps.

Well, I better stop right here for now, cause indeed the next map is a big beast, and I can hardly wait to play it too as it is one of the very best of Eternal Doom. Till then, see you all next time.

[antares031]

MAP13 - Drop 'Em!
ZDoom, UV - Pistol Start, KIS(%): 100/100/100

It's not a conventional level, actually. But it's more like testing player's skill (But then again, it's not hard to beat every tests). There are three tests waiting for you; The Bird, Burning Feet, Exploding Fist. The first one is simple, just let that arch-vile blow you to the teleporter. Alternatively, you can push the arch-vile forward to send it to the starting point via another teleporter. And of course, you can telefrag it if you're extra lucky. The second one is also simple. You just grab the radiation suit, and kill a pair of revenants. Keep in mind that there's little chances to get hurt by damaging floor even if you get the suit. The last one is even easier; press the switch, then move backward. Still, you can trap the Cyberdemon and kill it with your bare hands, or with weapons if you still have ammo. But if you want to archive perfect kills, save some bullets for the final encounter against the Wolfenstein SS.

[punnyone]

Map 12 - Darkdome - 98% Kills, 100% Secrets.

The original Eternal Doom finale, Darkdome, is Sverre's swan song to the mapset. One of the largest and most complex levels from back in the day, Sverre created an extremely complex castle/cathedral that a first time player is guaranteed to get lost in.

The detailing for Darkdome certainly leans more on the realistic side. Even though many of the sections such as the outdoor walls are monotextured, everything feels natural as opposed to the wallpaper feel that Map 10 had. The southmost areas are extremely eye catching: The dockyard you start off in with the three boathouses overlooking the dark sea, the towering flame torches, and the moat that you need to get across to get inside the castle proper. There are some tricky hitscanner fights during this section, especially since many of these guys are positioned high up in the towers.

The central area, where you are almost constantly ducking from the balcony-based cyberdemon's rockets, features very stylish lighting and some cool stained glass windows. The left annex features a balcony containing a tough baron of hell fight (plus one that is stuck in the walls and thus, prevents a 100% kills bonus if you don't cheat).

The right annex features the cool fire and water rooms, a tough outdoor battle with cacos and lost souls, and the constricting yellow key room. The final section of the level calls back to the constantly teleporting cyberdemon fight from Woodhead. Playing on HMP, the Spiderdemon doesn't make an appearance, which actually makes the fight significantly harder due to no infighting taking place. Then the map ends with the reappearance of the time gate, thus bringing the original Eternal Doom 1 to a close.

The secrets in this level are a bit unusual, to say the least. There are only four that actually register, but I found quite a few very cryptically hidden areas that SHOULD have counted as well. Either way, these act as bonus rewards for the most diligent treasure hunters.

I'd almost say that Darkdome is, for me at least, a perfect level through and through, but there's the elephant in the room...That yellow switch puzzle. During my first playthroughs years ago, I always wondered why none of those yellow switches worked. I assumed they were for decoration. I also wondered why I always burned alive while collecting the yellow key...

The solution for all of this: Marking the yellow switches in advance, traversing back through literally the entire map to hit all 8 of them (At least there are surprise enemy encounters), and then having to hit 8 more switches back at the yellow key area (Imagine if you forgot to hit one of them!), which finally raises the lava to get the yellow key. It has always come off to me as the one mildly weak point in what is otherwise a flawless level. On a much lesser note, the switch to raise the drawbridge in the south also alluded me back in the day.

Overall though, despite the slightly inconvenient nature of the yellow key switch puzzle, I have precious little otherwise to gripe about with Darkdome. It remains one of the most impressive early Doom levels, and I'd certainly rank it high up on the list of favorite Eternal Doom levels.

P.S. as Getsu Fune pointed out, it will seem a bit odd to cram maps 15,31 and 32 in a single day considering how at least two of those levels are rather massive. I'll probably end up instead posting both maps 13 and 14 tomorrow as those levels are bite-sized and relatively small, respectively.

[plums]

MAP12 - An epic map by Soundblock. Also an Epic 2 map; people weren't kidding when they said Ogdoad, by Alexander "Eternal" S., was a tribute to this one. Anyhow like others have pointed out, Sverre is not afraid to make the gameplay hard, and those chaingun snipers were certainly a good start to softening the player up. The hidden AVs were clever, as was the spectre placement - I think I blew myself up with a rocket against one half a dozen times, always when I was sure that I'd killed them all before trying.

Based on the comments, the yellow switch hunt seems to be what most people remember, and while I liked it I have to say I didn't really find it the focus of the map, or that much of a problem either. I just backtracked everywhere I'd been already and kept track of the number of switches I'd hit, no map markers required. There's some token ambushes when you hit the switches but nothing too difficult. It does emphasize the exploration aspect more, which in turn makes you appreciate the architecture even more. I agree with DotW about the semi-realism working extremely well here, and the map being fairly good at guiding the player along, as long as your eyes are peeled.

Wasn't overly wowed by the end fight, I get that you're supposed to cause infighting, but despite being somewhat limited in ammo for most of the map I had plenty to take out the cyber before releasing the spiderdemon by this point, and dealing with them one at a time wasn't a real issue other than keeping track of where the cyberdemon was. I didn't dislike it though, really, and it seems fitting to have some kind of boss encounter at the end of a large map like this.

Having played Soundblock's Plasmaplant before doing Eternal Doom, it's interesting to see how much of his style remained from this map, some 17 years later.

Doomwiki says that Eternal Doom was originally by "Team Eternal" before it got absorbed into Team TNT. I'm guessing this marks the transition, as this is the last map in the first Eternal Doom, and sadly Mr. Kvernmo's last entry in the wad. He certainly makes it count though!

[dobu gabu maru]

Getsu Fune said:

The secret levels aren't actually secret here because the exits on 15 and 31 are the secret exits, so there's no skipping levels. Here's what I think for one day

You guys can play the levels and post about them in any order you want, as long as we're back to normal by the 18th. So if you have the time to do MAP14 and MAP15 in one day, feel free to post about it—whatever works for you.

MAP12: Well, Kvernmo continues to prove he can craft gorgeous, atmospheric maps that take a while to chew through. I unfortunately played this right after MAP11 so my brain was pretty fried as I stumbled around, allowing me to completely miss the hallway that leads to unlocking the bluekey in the northwest. I must have some sort of attraction to buttresses and archways though, as I wandered around this onyx fortress with my mouth agape, still amused by the gothic masonry despite so many maps of the same setting (though perhaps that’s due to Kvernmo’s skillful handiwork). Gameplay wasn’t as tight this time around but it was still enjoyable (like that berserk trap), though I have to confess I skipped the YK switch hunt because I really just wanted to go to sleep. It’s an impressive map but it's a momentous undertaking coming off the heels of MAP11, plus that YK section would’ve been a real drag had I gone through with it.

The Mastermind fight at the end was kinda clever… might have to steal that and repurpose it for my own nefarious ends.

[Soundblock]

Hey, did someone say my name?

- Tip for the chaingunners in the opening courtyard: remove the HUD bar, in case you happen to have that up. Lets you see them much easier.
- Yellow key switch puzzle was meant to get some use out of the otherwise little used map markers. Helped me give the map some purpose too, while building.
- The giant torches actually came about to block vis overflow. Take them out (just the left one actually) and the map will crash in vanilla.
- I might have put the raise-bridge switch in a more obvious position, but there simply weren't any 2-sided linedefs left to go around, so I tucked it into the least vis-threatening corner and put it down to players having to use the mapview (WITH zoom).
- real life inspiration: I started out with the image in my head of an imp under a spotlight, to put it simply. An ominous spotlight with pitch darkness all around. Didn't really turn out looking like that, but that's what started the snowball for me. Kinda like this place, when the oculus shines directly down:



Don't know that I knew of that place (Pantheon, Rome) when I build Darkdome, but I think I must have seen it, even though the map actually looks nothing like it. You'd think it was som south-of-France castle that inspired it, but no. Just a strong image of an imp under a spotlight, which started me on the main cyber-overwatched hall, and the map spun outward from there, over a year (which was a helluva long time to spend on a level back in those days).
- For me, Darkdome's the pick of the bunch out of my own stuff. I also hate it, because its hard to measure my newer stuff up to it, even if it looks dated today. I maybe bumped on the bar with this thing back when it was made, but the bar's been raised a lot since then.
- I didn't know about the stuck baron, or the fact HMP's boss fight turns out harder than UV's! Doh.
- The current top 3 speed runs on ED Map 12 are all awesome.
- Glad to see the thing's still got some longevity!
- Apologies to anyone that gnashed their teeth and tore their hair out LF yellow switches! I'd still have put them in though, if I had to remake it today.

[plums]

Hey, the bat-signal worked!

Soundblock said:

- The giant torches actually came about to block vis overflow. Take them out (just the left one actually) and the map will crash in vanilla.

This is extremely cool to me. Of course obstructing the player's line of sight is a common tactic to avoid VPOs, but usually it's less subtle, sometimes even just slapping a big wall down. Those torches really aren't that wide and don't look out of place at all.

[punnyone]

Great to see you in this thread Soundblock! I was hoping we would get some some commentary from your Eternal maps. I would have never realized that the tall torches act essentially as visplane blockers. I've usually just always considered them really cool setpieces.

I'm curious if you have any similar stories for Nucleus and Time Gate!

[Soundblock]

pizzabob18 said:

I'm curious if you have any similar stories for Nucleus and Time Gate!

Well, in contrast to Darkdome's one year, Timegate was slapped together in two weeks, right at the end of the deadline, when we needed a connector for the time travel story. Remember Paul Schmitz was quite smitten with it, which was a nice compliment from one of the great authors at the time. Was his favorite level in the wad around the time I finished it.

Nucleus is a maybe overzealaous crate maze. Considering the time and effort that went into creating graphics and layout for it it was maybe the least bang for the buck out of the three levels I made, but I still kinda enjoy it. One of the early integrated demos (that since were re-recorded) had a team member, Adam I think it was, running around there being lost for 10 minutes. Glad we swapped that one out. Maybe should have left out the one-way exit back to the hangars once you're deep in the nuke pit. Seems a bit mean in retrospect. Its a bit of a tribute to Nukemine for me, which is one of the classics I really fed off. Was happy at the time with the crate-on-an elevator effect working!

The Team TNT connection came about really late in production, when everything was just about wrapped up. We agreed on team Eternal that it might give the release more oomph to have it under the wing of the more established TNT moniker. I think it was Ty who had a whiff of what were making, made the connection with Jim, and then Jim Flynn contacted the team about it.

I wish I could remember all the different names we were throwing around (bad ones!) before Alex nailed it with "Eternal Doom". Don't have those emails anymore...

[Cacowad]

Hey, that's pretty cool, didn't knew you worked on those maps.

Onward!

map 11: there are a lot (read, REALLY A LOT) of "wtf did that do" switches all around the place. The interconnectivity of the map is really cool in theory but largely fail in clarity due to the said switches. Combat was good at least.

map 12: The "X mark the spot" make it's glorious return! but this time is clear what it does. It only took 12 maps. The map itself is really pretty, with a clear sense of place and direction, the fights were good and i died quite a bit here and there, mostly because the health packs were located mostly at the beginning (and because i am bad). The yellow key puzzle was fun, and the running in circles minimal for me, but i can see it become a problem for players with a worse sense of direction than myself.
Almost forgot, the very last part reminded me of cyberdreams, but i had to leave him be and just run to the exit.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP11: Dawn of the Dead
100% kills, 10/11 secrets

Now this is an adventure map... filled to the brim with secret passages (including required ones), "what the fuck did that do" switches, and a nice interweaving layout. I managed to puzzle my way through this one without too much trouble, mostly by dint of just returning to old areas to see if anything new had opened up. The one part that did give me a bit of trouble was acquiring the blue key, but the secret to open shows up on the minimap as a false wall so wasn't too hard to figure out.

Unlike MAP09, it's a bit more abstract, more like an IWAD map in places. There's some cool parts with the level re-arranging itself, lots of forming staircases and such, although the final room feels a bit "yeah, so what?" Combat isn't bad, though it's a bit heavy on monster closets, and imps (better than shotgunners?) Overall, I had a lot of fun moving around this one though.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 13 -- Drop 'Em -- / --
I chose The Way of the Exploding Fist. How 'bout you?

Since there's not much to say here, I guess now's as good a time as any to mention that I quite like the way Eternal Doom's intermap tally screen gives the name of each level's BGM track as well as the mapname. It'd be cool if more mapsets with a strong, cohesive sense of music direction took the same tack, I reckon being able to put a name to a cool tune you just spent several minutes listening to without having to quit the game and consult a templated .txt file would help underscore the contribution that music selection makes to the way the game feels. BTSX team take note!

Map 14 -- Pistol Only - 84% Kills / 66% Secrets
Since map 13's not really a proper map in any appreciable sense, I don't reckon there'll be any real objections if I roll forward to map 14 now, hopefully?

.....or maybe I'd rather not, I have almost nothing positive to say about this sector-turd. As the name suggests, the obvious concept here is that for the majority of the runtime you wield only the pistol and the (soon-berserked) fist, with an essentially useless shotgun showing up near the end, but in practice the map's not really about combat or austerity in the traditional sense, but rather about a disjointed series of heavily gimmicky little setpiece curios where you dispatch monsters through indirect means, ala large chains of exploding barrels, crushing ceilings, telefrags, hamfisted infighting engagements, and the like. I imagine that certain temperaments will find this stuff to be really "cute", and many players will likely find the mostly brainless doodads on offer here to be a welcome respite from the lengthy, obtuse nature of level progression in most (and indeed, this is presumably precisely why it's in the mapset). For my part, this kind of thing falls under my own personal definition of having my time shamelessly wasted. The nature of each scenario here is very obvious and very shallow and generally very simple to execute, so there's no satisfaction to be found in figuring out a brainteaser or in simply moving smoothly ala Cyberdreams or something of that nature, and a number of the kill-contraptions are clumsily implemented to the point that they can and probably should be ignored entirely, ala the early telefrag chain or the woefully inefficient pinky-crusher. The only real puzzle involves what is essentially an impact-switch which doesn't really look like one in the traditional sense, which may sour the impressions of players who might otherwise like this sort of thing.

Not much to look at, either, just a haphazard splattering of almost totally unadorned boxes and corridors with mostly nonexistent lighting that once again looks as though it was rudely converted from one texture resource to another via a utility rather than any sort of sentient agency. The music track is sort of charming in its schlocky way and its presence is perhaps the only bit of attempted wit that doesn't totally fall flat on its face. Call it a well-placed beauty mark on a very unlovely corpse.

Given my final tallies it's clear that there's more on offer here that I've not yet seen, but frankly I wouldn't care to ever visit this map again, so someone else will have to play the tourguide/apologist this time.

[Salt-Man Z]

MAP11: Dawn of the Dead
52:24 | 100% Kills | 100% Items | 81% Secrets

The first time I played this level it gave me fits. One of those levels that you pause and come back to on and off to try and puzzle it out. Eventually I did figure it out, but it took forever. This time I didn't have any real problems, besides the blue key. (Eventually though to consult the automap and went guided-wall-humping.) Still took me almost an hour, though it did not feel like that long at all. Epic map. Combat's a bit eh, but generally kept me moving with enough repopulation. I like how Couleur likes to open closets behind you as move forward to attack. I wonder what the last two secrets are that I missed? They didn't show on the map, and they didn't contain any items...

[plums]

Demon of the Well said:

Since there's not much to say here, I guess now's as good a time as any to mention that I quite like the way Eternal Doom's intermap tally screen gives the name of each level's BGM track as well as the mapname.

I really like this too. On the other hand, I dislike the way every map from here on in features this same information in text, in front of the exit. Not only is it quite redundant, but unnecessary text like this in maps is kind of a pet peeve of mine, largely from Quake 1/2 maps where authors often put all sorts of text messages in for secrets etc, which I find very immersion-breaking.

Map 13 is total filler, but in a megawad with so many giant levels, it can be overlooked. I want to guess that back in its day, it might have been somewhat more appreciated for people that played the first 12-map Eternal Doom release and then moved on to the second, but I think I'd be disappointed if I IDCLEV'd to map 13 and this is how it started.

[Amarande]

I'd comment more often, but I just played Eternal a few months ago for the first time without using godmode like I have a tendency to normally do when Dooming, and made my way all the way up to MAP26 on ITYTD before I had a disk failure and lost the save. Don't really feel so much like playing the whole thing again from scratch so I'll try to remember my experiences :)

Fun note: MAP13 is an example (much like Scythe 2 MAP05 also is ...) of how to imperfectly implement a death exit :) On ITYTD, you'll almost certainly survive it if you came in with 100%+ health and 100%+ blue armour; even on UV, if you come in with 200/200 and avoid as much damage as possible (e.g., take the Path of Burning Feet where you get a megasphere and don't get hit by either of the Revenants), you can just barely survive (from 200/200 you'd have about 35/35 at the end), and go into "Pistol Only" with your full arsenal.

(Mind you, ironclad death exits - to the point of even defeating not only 200/200 with certainty but also god mode or any attempts to sneak through with an invuln - seem to not come till later. They're doable though, e.g., the ones in Speed of Doom ...)

[T-Rex]

I can't believe I'm up to this map already. Well, here goes.

Map12: Darkdome (Sverre Kvernmo)
99% kills, 100% items, 100% secrets
Time: 25:40

The third and final map by Soundblock, and it is massive, and I really mean MASSIVE. It's a huge castle out at sea, which is very expansive, so it makes the map bizarrely overscaled. It's not going to be easy as it will really test your skill, patience, and furthermore, your memory. Every bit of this map is dangerous as you got from the start chaingunners on the castle's watchtowers from the distance, and they easily chip off your health with incredible precision. Lots of the enemies that teleport in are hidden behind walls and they can attack you from within, so have to be extremely careful, as in the case of one archvile hidden behind a glass window in the great hall area and another inside a fireplace to the northwest. There's even a bunch of hell knights and barons lurking all around the castle. You also have to watch out for ambushes. One in particular is very nasty, which is when after you hit the switch which lowers the pillar holding the red key, the cyberdemon that was up high in the great hall gets teleported far from your behind, so act fast and use the BFG9000 on him so he'll be dead by the time the platform is fully lowered. The major highlight of this map is the infamous yellow skull switch puzzle, and this is where your memory comes into play. It is crucial that you explore every inch of the map in advance before you arrive at the chamber where the yellow key is, so that once you hit the switch at the top of the stairs, you'll be able to locate the switches which are indicated by a skull switch between yellow bars. The automap also helps things as once you see one beforehand, you can mark each of them by pressing the M key (there's 8 of them). That point is the most frustrating unless you already have done the safest approach, or have a good photographic memory, or that you have played the map several times that you already know where the switches are. So you have to do some backtracking to find the switches and then once you've found them all, return to the chamber and hit all the already lit switches which will raise the lava up so that you won't get trapped getting the yellow key. The final area involves shooting several switches to open a passage into one of the cells, but you must watch out for the second cyberdemon and even an arch-vile that will teleport around by crossing the protruding red flames, which you'll need to do in order to get in the south cell and find the switch which reveals the exit portal guarded by a spider mastermind. This is a really lengthy, complex, and tough map all the way, more than Black Tower from The Master Levels, but I really enjoyed this map. Definitely an appropriate map to end the first release of Eternal Doom. My hat goes off to Soundblock for making one of the most beautiful and well-crafted maps in Eternal Doom. Prior to his comeback with Plasmaplant, this was his last offering to Doom. I guess that Xatrix Entertainment must have played this map along with Soundblock's other two Eternal maps and possibly his Master Levels contributions in addition to his remaining Cabal maps and were so impressed that they contacted and hired him for Redneck Rampage, which coincidentally enough, Alex Mayberry was also involved in. IMPORTANT NOTICE: Getting 100% kills is impossible due to a baron being placed and stuck inside a wall.

I'm gonna leave it here for now, because, goodness, this map was extremely huge and tough. Thank goodness the next couple of maps are shorter, but I will pick up from there tomorrow. Take care and have fun, everyone.

[Crusader No Regret]

Replayed some more maps:

Map 10: It lacks polish though there still is some fun to be had blazing through this one. Another of those maps that's more fun to go fast than cautious. cacodemons are handy bullet shields but otherwise I didn't have much patience to wait for infighting this time. I guess there's something to be said for splattering 4 shotgunneers with one SSG shot. Other than the blue key mandatory secret, rather straightforward progression. Got all the secrets. Some curiously placed monster blocking lines allowed for letting enemies clump up for rockets.

Map 11: Whew, this was fun to revisit. Haven't touched this in years and can still mostly handle this on UV. Found/remembered all the secrets too. There's some hint for every one of them for the observant though the one behind a false wall is probably the most obscure. Given the time period this was made, it's quite probably straferunning wasn't as widely known since it allows trickery such as getting the yellow key early.

Didn't run into trouble with the mandatory secrets for obtaining keys. There's a few decisions that have me scratching my head a bit. The backpack is obtained really late. Not quite the tease as on Map 30 later but still caught my attention. Ammo distribution is interesting. My own fault for running really low on shells while having an excess of rockets. Then there's all these shell boxes when the map is pretty much over. ??? Still a fun pick up and play map, even if it is more abstract and less sense of place than Forlorn Fortress.

[TheOrganGrinder]

MAP10: Crimson Tide

Less satisfying and atmospheric than the preceding levels; I think the "storming the castle" theme is starting to wear a little thin, and the iterations on that theme can't help but be judged against each other now that the novelty is starting to wear off. The repopulating "great hall" at the centre of the map is an interesting element, though I think it's a bit clumsily done, with monsters frequently clumping up in a corner of the complicated space for the player to dispatch with a few well-placed rockets or super shotgun blasts. Damage comes mostly from gradual attrition at the hands of the many hitscanners that roam the halls of his forsaken palace. There are a few moments that rely on the player going "well, that's probably a door, switch, or teleporter, even though it doesn't look like one," but this is an approach that the WAD has been teaching its players, so this is fair game.

MAP11: Dawn of the Dead

A compact, intense level that continues the medieval theme but feels less like a castle than a haunted necropolis, into the midst of which the player is thrust with the goal of clawing their way out to freedom. It plays fair within the bounds established by the WAD for itself: keys are tucked away behind secret-flagged sectors, but there's always a clue to be found, whether it's a detail to be picked up on or a line on the automap to take note or, or at least a sense of logic to the proceedings; no blindly optimistic wall-humping required here. There are, I feel, a few overused tricks in the author's playbook; the pincer ambushes in gloomy hallways, for example, whether they're achieved with closets or teleporters do become predictable before the map reaches its end. Overall this was a solid, enjoyable, and very replayable map.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP13 Drop 'Em!

It is totally possible to max this. 3 paths to the death. The exploding fist involves a cyberdemon shooting you through the portal. He can be killed though, I've seen it. The bird obviously involves an arch-vile jump. The burning feet involves staying in nukage while revenants are there and a teleporter lowers. The burning feet one you can't skip, so I save it for last while getting rid of the cyber and archie, then teleporting back to the start. You know what's odd though? I survived the death exit. That's certainly possible on ITYTD if it's not done properly, especially at close to full health/armor from continuous runs. Oh well. Pistol Only isn't gonna happen for me, bitch.

MAP14 Pistol Only

Well, sorry, but I kept my carryovers without dying in MAP13. Gotta say though, this classical music is probably my favorite track here, even though it's not usually fit for Doom anyways. the premise obviously allows Tyson-style gameplay, and isn't as offensive as it looks. With the proper hidden door, I can telefrag a few baddies with good coordination, while shooting barrels at imps and other monsters for weakening purposes. the crusher involving the archvile was actually quite tough to figure out, and easy to mess up if you go into that one alcove too early. That demon crusher is pretty odd, and probably won't work as intended, so the author gives you clips to work with anyone who's alive.

Once it's back to that telefrag hallway, the new path opens up a gimmick between a mancubus and a baron. Too hard for pistol, so infighting is in order at the best possible moment. not much else to say until the yellow key, where it COULD be possible to get either a shotgun or a chaingun from those two guys if you're fast enough to beat the crusher. okay, maybe just the chaingun. the staircase segment leading to the red key is interesting, although it's possible to hit those switches from the ground. the endgame involves a rather nasty shootout torn down by infighting so you can get that final blue key. Pretty odd level structured around pistol-only gameplay, as its title states. The end of this level actually leads to MAP32 from the looks of it. I assume that MAP32 was the original MAP15 by then.

[gaspe]

MAP13 - Drop 'Em!

A map that basically enforces you to lose your weapons before proceeding with Eternal Doom II. I like the names of the paths, they have a Hexen vibe somehow.

MAP14 - Pistol Only

As the title says you have mainly the pistol in this level, so you'll have to punch your way with the berserk and you will have to exploit stuff like infighting and even few telefrags. There's quite a regression in the visuals as there will be only rooms and hallways and the map doesn't develop anything. The music was very fitting and it helped to make the experience a bit more joking.