The DWmegawad Club plays: Eternal Doom

[gaspe]

MAP20 - Silures

This map departs from what is the usual Doom experience, especially of nowadays. And even though the gameplay is actually Doom for many things, it feels almost to be in a different game while playing this map. Overall you will meet only few monsters at each encounter but many situations can be also tricky. Even more if you don't find the SSG, and to a lesser extent the RL. There will be mostly puzzles going on here, and you will have to think in a different way than the usual (and also remember the lessons you received in the previous maps!). Most notably are few "usable" things, and switches sequences with a time limit. Another cool thing is that you can exit in two different ways: for the easiest you will need only the blue key, and for the other you have to explore all the map and you will need the yellow and red key. At the red key there's also the biggest encounter of the map, with a nice swarm of cacodemons. Even though I find that few things don't have many hints, I still think this is a great map.

[punnyone]

Map 19 - Warheroes - 92% Kills, 100% Secrets.

After quite a few smaller/breather maps, Chris Couleur brings back the mammoth sized maps with a vengeance. Back before I got into playing unofficial wads, I always considered some Final Doom maps such as Tombstone to be large, complex, and maze-like. So naturally when I first played Warheroes some 13 years ago, it absolutely made my jaw drop.

Design-wise, Warheroes is totally abstract and contains all medieval textures. The map is slightly symmetrical, and there are many times that the player revisits already conquered areas (Made less mundane by extra monsters appearing each time). There is a rich and diverse color scheme used which prevents monotony and instead provides eye candy. Those fire flats which are quite prominent features always impressed me.

Probably my favorite area is the seemingly floating battlements and islands to the south and southwest. They are great to look at, when you are not getting surprised by cacodemons or hell nobles. The final room with its vine covered walls and plethora of cacos/pains/lost souls also deserves mention.

Combat-wise, there is a nice blend between wide open firefights (especially cacodemons) and close encounters with some of the heavier weighted demons. That cyberdemon fight in particular still can be tough to get through alive. It certainly helps clean me out on ammo, hence why I opted not to obtain 100% kills.

Also, good luck finding all the secret areas during your first playthrough, they are certainly not all easy to find. The key is to revisit your past steps as you never know what you might have missed...

Overall - Warheroes has aged quite well over the years due to both its challenging yet fair gameplay, and its constructive use of such a massive amount of level space. Another highlight in the set, and one that I personally appreciate the more I revisit it.

Now...onto puzzleland...

[plums]

MAP20

If you thought progression in some maps in the wad was obscure before this point, this map will be like running into a brick wall. If you like that kind of thing, then enjoy. I did like it and managed to beat it without a walkthrough, cheats, etc., though I did get hung up on a few parts for a while. Also the lack of power weapons in not secret areas was a bit of an annoyance - I'm sure I'm not the only one that would've appreciated a non-secret SSG midway through the map. I did get the SSG and RL, but not until I got the computer map, by which point the level is almost over.

After I beat it the first time, I went back and played it again, getting the secrets as I came to them instead of later/not at all, and it made for a very different experience. The blue key ledge that you can get onto early is a nice touch, makes speedrunning quite a bit more feasible. All in all one that I really liked, though I won't be surprised to read a lot of vitriol towards it. I'll be interested to see who else that plays this map for the first time actually likes it.

The level feels pretty long at first, but it's really not once you know where to go and what to do. I didn't think there would be quite that much difference between my 1st and 2nd playthroughs.

Spoiler

When I came across the yellow key I didn't realize it had to be obtained by AV jump (on UV at least), and I spent a lot of time looking for a switch or something to get to it. Nor did I realize it was optional -- I did have to go to the doomwiki page to figure all this out, once I'd beaten the map normally. Having mandatory keys in secrets and obscure switches is certainly not out of the question for this level, based on past ones. This was compounded by me missing the blue key tree "switch," though I eventually wised up to the idea that there might be more in that outside courtyard.

[Ribbiks]

20: fda. interesting level, this! guessing it's highly non-linear (multiple exits?) because I stumbled into the exit with just a blue key, and I feel like it was possible to fuck up that area and have it be unobtainable (if the monster-activated lifts don't work in your favor). No good reason to watch that fda, btw, as can be imagined it's a lotttttt of bumping around looking for what to do.

Here's lots of misc things I really liked:
- nearly every way to progress is hinted at in some way, be it textures, or visibility to other rooms, etc. Makes it feel rewarding when you eventually figure it out.
- I really liked the way the blue key was obtained, clever shootable door triggers
- I liked the (seemingly?) pointless hallway with the boatload of revs/AVs, the way they wake up at once is interesting.
- Platforming is fun. I like climbing over map geometry, and it's always fun to think I'm breaking something and find out it's a secret or an intended route.
- I like the YK bars in the secret area, locked secrets and secret keys feel double-ultra-secret fun to me.
- Similarly, I like the secret whose sole purpose was to show you that the YSK exists, and (maybe?) offer you a more advantageous position to take out some mobs (an underutilized way of doing secrets imo).
- triggerable items were neat

The only thing that felt a little harsh was the amount of lol-chaingunners, but it wasn't too bad.

Fun map, I'm glad I was in a proper mindset (and had enough doom-time) to fully enjoy it.

[plums]

Ribbiks said:

guessing it's highly non-linear (multiple exits?) because I stumbled into the exit with just a blue key, and I feel like it was possible to fuck up that area and have it be unobtainable (if the monster-activated lifts don't work in your favor).

You can get onto the BK ledge with a teleport later in the map. Or you can get the YK instead (which actually can become unobtainable).

edit: I'm enjoying watching your FDAs, watched this one at 500% speed so it wasn't too bad. There's a lot more to this map if you felt like going back to it. Otherwise check out TimeOfDeath's great demos on DSDA if you haven't already.

[dobu gabu maru]

MAP20: I knew this map was trouble when it placed chaingunners in dark rooms in elevated positions, but I didn’t know that the combat was going to be the easy part. This is a nefarious, evil entry that stumped me constantly, even with IDDT telling me where the hundreds of secret rooms were. Evans masterfully designs it to be about distinguishing slight inconsistencies, but unfortunately they’re so inconspicuous that I had little idea of where the switches were, or what they even did. I think I can appreciate this philosophy in theory, but since the combat comes at such brief intervals between the dry spells of wall-humping/scenery-gazing, it was just a bit too much for me in the end—there needs to be some kind of catharsis or pay-off for finishing a puzzle, and all Evans’ puzzles lead to are more puzzles. I clipped to the exit about 50 minutes into the map, since I realized I was following Lingyan’s playthrough so closely that I wasn’t even playing the map on my own anymore.

Ho-ly cow is this Eternal Doom at maximum Eternal Doom-iness.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP20 Silures

Nice to see that Bob Evans came to the community when it came to discussing the Odessa series, and he got the rest of the shit uploaded. But fuck me for not knowing a lot about how he handles these puzzles. Flynn and Evans were quite peculiar in their Eternal Doom escapades, and their first entries here (Flynn's MAP31 and this) did so with a low monster count. Maybe I should bump up the difficulty, as 96 enemies on ITYTD was a lot smaller than I expected.

Therein exists visual cues as to where to go in this fine map, right from the outset of the watery zone that I spend most of my time in. Is that a switch presented in a cocktail-like manner? How about that one part where I find the unlit torch and move it to its side to open the door? Unfortunately that room is pretty much useless except for the megaarmor. A really small visual cue exists in this one room, a hole which you can see a door on the other side, turns out that you can open it from outside, even though it looks nothing but wall. And therein lies yet another not-so-visual cue, pressing on the wall to your left when you enter, for a lift to the next area to the far west. There's a cleverly hidden switch when you hop the pole, and you can drop for the SSG here.

I have no idea what's up with that room with the crushing poles. you fight imps and demons there, and stepping under the blocks causes poles to rise up. It's hard to figure out how to get out unless you shoot like everything in the room. Some lift trickery will help get a nearby secret, if you know how. the vault through the tubular sections of this watery area are a bit confusing, but straightforward anyways as long as I stay aloft. When you reach the five switches, press the central ones, not the ones on the far sides, to keep going.

After a bit, the east side. A bit more open, but the puzzles remain. Evans had a thing for multiple exits, despite this not having a secret exit. The first involves only the blue key, and there's an easy way of reaching it, shoot the hell knight through the hole and make him take the lift down, then ride it up. Or you can just get the key later. Some very weird puzzles exist later on, in that walkway, press the ledge without the candle to lower it, to access the imp ledge to the south (although there's nothing of interest there). Also, the ovular place has a hidden switch without nary a visual cue, and another switch to head inside that thing (I am making this sound horribly wrong).

Man I hate that teleporter puzzle, It's got the legitimate way of reaching the blue key, but it turns me around a lot. Plus the way to get the 100% "ending" to this map involves shooting one of the walls (hint: there's bullet holes already on this one). The yellow key room is pretty interesting. There's an archvile summoned, and you really don't think there's any other way of reaching the yellow key other than arch-vile jump. What if I kill the arch-vile then and there? If I was playing UV, I'd have a second arch-vile chance by pressing on the wooden alcove with the green torch to teleport another in. But you don't need to arch-vile jump at all. I just found this out, at least for settings other than UV, that there's a missing decoration to the right side. Go over to where it's supposed to be, hit the nearby switch that appears, and voila, key problem solved. You can't do this on UV. I assume this is what plums is talking about.

What was I saying about multiple exits? Oh yeah, there's the blue key exit, involving some switch pressing/racing through the open window to the NE courtyard, then pressing the dead tree. It's actually pretty simple. But no, I like the full Eternal Doom experience, so with the yellow key, I head back to that one yellow door. Which isn't a door but rather a lift, that I can't reach unless I find that one slit in the marking nearby. Okay, this room wasn't too useful, other than trying to get a megaarmor and berserk. The other yellow door involves one secret, and some rather odd platforming leads to the other yellow barrier. where I can find the red key. The X marks the spot yet again as I lure cacodemons in, but the mancubus trap that follows is one of the most passively-aggressively nasty ones. Turns out it uses a 30-second door close trick, not the kind you'd expect monster ambushes to be from the monsters' side. Afterwards, it's off to the now open final secret and out the exit and to the next map. Overall, needs more combat, but it's about as puzzling as you'd want.

[TheOrganGrinder]

MAP20: Silures

I ended up deciding that I'd had enough by the time I reached the blue exit. This one has a stronger focus on puzzles, a somewhat slower pace, and a more relaxed atmosphere than what's come before; on the heels of MAP19's grandiose scale and fierce battles, this represents something of a change of pace, and it's not unwelcome. I think the level's navigability suffers somewhat for its disjointed nature and sense that areas of widely differing scale and theme have been packed together as tightly as they'll fit, interconnected in ways that don't feel like each area progresses naturally and logically to the adjacent ones. As such, it feels like a collection of arbitrary puzzles rather than a single large conundrum with multiple moving parts.

[T-Rex]

At last, we've come to a Bob Evans map. This is going to be one heck of a ride, so let's get ready.

Map20: Silures (Bob Evans)
101% kills, 92% items, 100% secrets
Time: 25:18

Oh, man, this map. Heh, heh, it's absolutely extraordinary compared to everything we've seen so far. It's extremely complex and intricate, full of puzzles so obtuse that you'll be taking awhile trying to solve this map. Sverre Kvernmo, Paul Schmitz, and Jim Flynn may have their cryptic moments with their entries, but Bob Evans truly is a master and takes the puzzlers up to eleven with this map. He has made an art form with the confusion and puzzle-within-puzzles, as seen in his Odessa series maps. Speaking of which, it is worth noting that Silures was originally meant to be an Odessa map before it became part of Eternal Doom, and it shows, having a wide variety of themes that make it deviate from the medieval setting of the mapset. It's not the squads of chaingunners, or the cacodemons, or the revenants, or the arch-viles, or the myriad of monster ambushes that will overwhelm you. It's the level design itself, it's so devious, so mind-boggling, so nasty, that you have to play it in order to believe its existence. You have switches in the most obscure and unorthodox places. Take the starting area, for example, you have to know to hump on a wall with the torch that isn't lit as it contains a hidden switch that will open the door to the inside of the structure. Inside, there's a small peephole where you can see that there's a secret door which will take you to a secret area where you can find a rocket launcher and a super shotgun. There will be moments where you'll have to hump on objects in order for walls to open, like once you notice an opened wall, you'll see a statue that you'll need to hump in order to open a door. Further in the map when you find the way to go outside at the northeast section of the map where you'll grab the plasma, you need to hump on the leafless tree for a hidden passage to open. At the southeast area, you'll have to hump a glowing stationary knight for an elevator to activate, but you can't board it until you've humped the bottom middle light indention which will reveal a switch, which you need to press which not only opens a revenant closet but also a hidden switch in the elevator, which you'll need to press for another elevator right behind it to activate. Getting the yellow key will require you to perform an arch-vile jump, so make sure he sets you in flames at the right place and you at the right position. I could talk more about the other puzzles in the map, but that will take forever. All I can say is that you'll really have to apply secret logic and do some things you wouldn't normally do in Doom, or you'll be stuck for a very long time trying to figure out this map. It took me a few tries to finally get all kills and secrets. Very difficult map in terms of puzzles, but this isn't the last we'll see of Bob Evans, as he has one more map that is bigger and badder, though that will come once we reached that point.

Man, talk about an exhausting map, and I remember I used to not like it much first time playing, but after trying it again, and especially after going through the Odessa series, I'm starting to appreciate Bob Evans's maps more and enjoying them after knowing what to expect from him and getting in tune with his style. See you all again in Map21: Fire and Stone, which is a breather map (thank goodness), and the last short map in all of Eternal Doom. Might take a day off as this map really takes a lot out of you.

[antares031]

MAP21 - Fire and Stone
ZDoom, UV - Pistol Start, KIS(%): 98/100/100

A modest opener for the final episode of Eternal Doom, and what a good level to refresh my head after the infamous MAP20. This level will greet you with a super shotgun right after the start, while the previous level had a cryptic puzzle to hide it. About the combat, it's a series of small action scenes. Occasionally some barons will block your way, but you won't have much trouble to finish this level. One thing to keep in mind is that there's an arch-vile jump puzzle to proceed the level. But this level has a mercy to give you a hint about it with a generous sign, saying "Jump here." Overall, it's a short, but enjoyable level with good medieval architectural environment. And yes, I do like the soundtrack of this level.

[Naan]

For some reason I always mismatch MAP15 and MAP19, as they share some similar traits in their beginning zone layout. And I am quite surprised some people thought it is less cryptic in progression than most of early maps such as MAP11 which is more compact.

Replaying MAP20 make me remember I never succeed to exit the map, and my today's try ended up quite badly thanks to a Baron that teleported behind me (yeah, it may not be one of the hardest maps or even mapsets but it has its moments! 320+ monsters on UV for Silures at least). Given there are two exits, I suspect it must've been considered for MAP15 at some point during level allocation.

[punnyone]

Map 20 - Silures - 99% Kills, 100% Secrets.

There's puzzle maps, and then there's Bob "Odessa" Evans puzzle maps. Silures is certainly among the more famous/infamous maps in Eternal Doom, and it can certainly stir up quite a mixed reception. I know when I first played it years ago, I borderline hated it. The map can be disorienting, the puzzles totally stumped me, and I could seemingly never reach certain areas. Even the music came off to me as rather unsettling sounding...

...My how times change...Because nowadays, I view this level as borderline genius.

First there is the overall aesthetic. Silures tows the line between an abstract folly and a realistic warfortress. Evans provides a richly detailed and uniquely textured map. The areas range from sparsely lit watery halls to medium sized outdoor yards with vegetation. Many areas are quite hidden, and even the mandatory locations in the map feel quite tucked away. There are also a few gameplay elements not normally present in the Eternal Doom series such as platform jumping (your opinion may vary on that aspect) and two different ways to exit the level. (More on that in a bit).

Puzzles and hidden switches are the name of the game. Bored with the usual stone/lever switches? Try unlit torches, statues, knights, and even a dead tree! Most of these are required for progression so it helps to try everything to see if it works. Secret areas are not only rewarding, but borderline mandatory as many of the heavier weapons lie tucked away. The BFG secret always irritated me back in the day and I honestly don't know how anyone would be able to find it without cheating/using a walkthrough.

As I stated earlier, there are two ways to exit Silures. One is the usual blue key route, which even during a first playthrough, makes the player feel like they missed out on something big. Then there is the yellow/red key route. Just getting there requires shooting an obscure bullet ridden panel and getting through some timed runs. Then once you get the yellow key, it's easy to forget that there is a room up high in the upper left of the map which leads to the red key. Finally, you have to somehow know where the new exit is and that can be an exhausting adventure in itself. (Whew)

Enemy encounters are mostly manageable, although there are a few tough encounters in the tighter spaces. If you are planning on finding the yellow/red keys, you will encounter a tough arch-ville trap as well as the "Wall of Cacos" to the north-west. Add a large amount of Mancubi to the latter fight and you have quite a challenge!

Overall, Silures is exhausting, frustrating, and challenging. It is also, more importantly, a great looking, refreshingly challenging, and secret-heavy map. It is certainly a highlight for me, although I find its followup to be a much bigger and better challenge.

[Pirx]

MAP17 - “The Crypt” by Dietmar Westerteicher

nice one, being a smaller map, not so typical for ED's castles. another chapel, mostly gray stone, with stained glass windows for some contrast. one of them breaks and leads to a secret with a megasphere (i just shot it accidentally). it also has a small cemetery, its gravestones adorned with demon faces. as for the music, it sounds like indian music from the andes to me, with panpipes. liked it a lot, althought the medieval march from map16 was probably a better fit for the theme. dia hands out rockets and shells like popcorn so one can steamroll most opposition. the end has a small circular arena with a cyb, and a blur sphere to troll the player. i defused this by staying in one spot and sidestepping until the cyb was dead, and ran strainght into a v-sphere at the exit, which allowed me to blast through that baron gang.


MAP18 - “Stands” by Dave Brachman

the previous map had announced it with its technological arena where the cyb fight took place: this is a uac outpost, seemingly dug into rock and ancient ruins. this mixture flows very well. there's even some knight armors standing around between terminals and force fields. the map itself is a bit plain, with all sorts of tech rooms joined by corridors, mostly at right angles. there's one room filled with cacos one has to turn into ketchup using a v-sphere and a rocket launcher. this launcher is a reliable weapon for most of the map, plus the ssg and several shell boxes. combat is mostly a few guys at a time, with single revs coming out of closets here and there. the fight in the V-shaped hall with the pillars was hilarious as i kept sliding around. the vile at the end gets a nasty wall of invisible meat in front of him if you keep ssg-ing the spectres and break the wall he's behind, shoot them at the corner to avoid this. interesting map theme, unfortunately with a bit too many dark corridors.


MAP19 - “Warheros” by Christopher Couleur

a brown stone castle with lots of towers and waterfalls. as others have said, an epic map with plenty of vertical space, home to cacodemons who can pursue the player here. fortunately there's a rocket launcher and plenty of ammo. excellent music. despite the technological bits of uac in the past, it still feels immersion-breaking to me when you can lower waterfalls by pressing on them, or a stone column makes a lift noise. i refrained from jumping or straferunning into holes that had not opened yet, knowing these can break the map. but leaving this aside, i was pleasantly surprised by its gameplay, how the map keeps one on his toes by releasing new enemies from time time. the best part was probably dueling the cyber on the "great wall", narrowly dodging his rockets until he died. nice example of a large map that's still interesting to play.


MAP20 - “Silures” by Bob Evans

fuck those lost souls at the start, getting in the way every time i tried to shoot the chaingunners. the backpack trap is particularly evil. the map so far is a mess of gray stone with rusty metal switches almost invisible against the background (and i'm on 2560x1440 here, what did that look like in 1997 in 320x200?). then i found some corridors and platforms to hop from one to the other... meh i think it's too late to bother with such puzzles ;)

[Master O]

If you guys thought Silures sucked, wait till you get to Beginner's End and Excalibur...

Excalibur, ughhh...

[Demon of the Well]

Map 20 -- Silures - 109% Kills / 100% Secrets
Ah, yes, the infamous "Silures." Well, I suppose of Bob's two maps here it's really "Excalibur" that's the truly infamous one, but nevertheless I reckon "Silures" has probably proved to be a deathblow to more than a few full playthroughs over the years. Even moreso than Jim Flynn's "Monster Mansion", this is a bona fide puzzle map, pitting your wits and in some cases your knowledge of Doom's mechanical workings against a confounding environmental riddle, where very little pathfinding is straightforward and the line between 'mandatory progression' and 'secret content' more or less ceases to exist, a point further muddled by the existence of two totally different paths to a single exit, the more difficult/arcane of which can supposedly decommission the easier route after a certain point (although I believe if you know what you're doing or are just lucky, you can finish the path to the easier one first before going back to try for the other one, leaving you an easy out should you get stuck).

Given the nature of this map's stock in trade, once again I feel that giving away too many details about what's involved would be to do it a disservice, so I'll refrain. It's easy to understand how someone could sit down to a session with this level, wanting to play Doom, and end up frustrated and pissed off; it's not really Doom in the traditional sense, though there are in fact still plenty of guns and monsters. I would reject the notion that any of the puzzle solutions here are truly unfair (though the location/access route for the red switch/second exit is perhaps a borderline case that more or less assumes you've found the tagged secret with the computer area map), but several are extremely arcane in their workings, in a way that goes beyond the level of simply hitting a switch and having no idea what the hell it does. The riddle of the YK-actuated lift to the strange/optional megaarmor ambush, for instance, is something I recall being absolutely stumped by back when I first played this; figuring it out requires both the eyes of a hawk and a grasp of some of Doom's quirkier mechanical logic (and Mr. Evans has always been given to some of the more esoteric line/action types, to whit), which is a lot to ask for someone who ostensibly signed up to save the earth by killing lots of stuff. I would say this is the principle difference between Bob Evans and Jim Flynn--abstract though his maps often are, Jim's puzzles and their solutions have a tendency to operate in a more or less 'in-world' sense, while Bob's are often more 'meta', if you'll pardon the tawdry terminology there. I tend to prefer Flynn's approach, myself, but both can be very rewarding to unravel for someone approaching them in the right frame of mind.

One thing that occurred to me reading about others' experience with the map is that it may not actually be the puzzles and confounding progression per se that ends up really souring folks on the map, but rather that they're punctuated by some rather abrasive combat. Some of the traps here are actually really fucking nasty, nastier than anything previously seen in the set, nastier than I had remembered, even. The map also fields a rather unfriendly pistol-start, and the proceedings can easily stay that way for a player not finding many secrets as s/he goes along, making the battle engagements take longer (very easy to miss both the SSG and the RL) and making combat mistakes punishing, which can result in death in the jaws of one of the various dick traps, which in turn is probably not very conducive to the sort of patient, studious mindset one likely needs to solve the brainteasers. In essence, the traps themselves are really just crasser puzzles, not in the "what weird dance do I need to do to survive this?" sense that characterizes modern high-choreography mapsets, but simply in that you either learn them or sniff them out so you can game them and not be slowed down too much. A very "you versus the spiteful dungeon master" sort of thing, as I've said previously--there's no glamour to the battles here whatsoever, only room for stark pragmatism.

Incidentally, the Achilles' heel of all maps like this, no matter how well-made they may be, is that they're just never as good on any revisit after the first time you well and truly beat them; the real bounty they offer are the riddles, and once you've solved them all of the supplementary stuff that makes up the actual moment-to-moment gameplay is a pale substitute for the intrigue on a repeat play. I've said previously that I prefer both Evans' and Flynn's work outside of Eternal Doom to what appears here, and the main reason for that is simply that those other maps hold up better because they tend to have more traditionally Doomy elements alongside the puzzling, which is less true of these meisterwerks of riddling here in ED itself. So, at the end of the day, I am glad that maps like "Silures" exist, and I admire them sincerely, but I find I'm not really able to vividly enjoy actually playing through them anymore, which is saddening in a way because it's pretty obvious that the potential audience for this kind of thing, small to begin with, has shrunk drastically over the years. Almost makes me wish I didn't know all of the secrets....or do I? I've never actually gotten the BFG (and have never consulted a walkthrough, for the record) before, come to think of it. It's not flagged as an official secret, and I think it may just be one big tease, but you never can tell with Bob, you know....

[Demon of the Well]

Map 21 -- Fire and Stone - 96% Kills / 100% Secrets
I like the music here, too. Seems a mite loud relative to many of the other tracks, but that's no big deal. The chimes and bells in concert with the timpani work surprisingly well in midi format, though I'll grant you it's probably for the best that this track was used for a map that's as short as this one is.

Incidentally, this is a lot shorter than I remember it being, I suspect I had probably mistakenly mentally conflated some of the meat of "Celebration of Evil" from earlier on with what's on offer here (the other 'final short map' I alluded to earlier on in the playthrough is map 23, incidentally). Seemed liked I blinked and it was over, really (probably because I was still mulling over what to say about map 20 while playing), so for once I think I really can be brief, here....In typical Landefeldian style, this is a linear sequence of discrete conceptual setpieces with strikingly tall geometry at a few points. There are two obvious highlights, the first being the torch-extinguishing sequence, which mandates an arch-vile jump. This is something I normally object to as part of mandatory progression in an otherwise standard level, actually, but since there's a floating bit of text that tells you point-blank what to do I suppose no one's really got a case for too much bitching (though the viles seem to have a really strange line-of-sight which makes initially getting into position a bit fiddly). The second is the exit room with the towering bonfire and the cacos drifting dreamily up from below; this is a really endearing little tableau, and I'll hear no words against it! As for the rest of the content, well....let's be frank, it's pretty obviously blatant filler, especially the looooooooong stone stairway leading up to the aforementioned exit chamber, and so is not really worth treating with at length. Even the two secrets feel like an afterthought. Wow, one whole used chaingun just for me?! Thanks Adam, you really shouldn't have.

The greatest mystery: why does that one cacodemon teleport to where he does? What on earth is the point?

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP21 Fire and Stone

I believe this is the last short map of Eternal Doom (unless you count MAP28 and maybe MAP23, like I do). As such, there's not a lot on display that you haven't really seen before. The invisible bridge with the nearby arachnotrons is a bit irking, there's no escape if you fall. The spiral corridor near the end was pretty weird, some enemies teleport behind you or something. Oh yes, and another arch-vile jump segment. It's possible to avoid jumping here too, if you strafejump straight from the platform with the soul sphere to the border. The real trouble then is killing the arch-viles, since there's some invisible barriers that seem to eat rockets or something. This map actually was annoying to max, for that matter.

or maybe...they do die after I teleport away. I somehow doubt it since the switches each just remove the fire, meaning the archie's platform goes down, possibly to simulate its disappearance so you don't see it while you keep teleporting. Maybe I shouldn't think too hard.

[TheOrganGrinder]

MAP21: Fire and Stone

This one is short, sweet, and straightfoward enough to provide a welcome blood-scented breather after the intricacies of the preceding couple of levels; there aren't any surprises here, not any puzzles more intricate than the standard key-fetch mechanics. The music is on the brash side and would, I think, get rather wearying if used in a longer map; as it is, you can pass through this antechamber of a map before any part of it overstays its welcome.

[gaspe]

MAP21 - Fire and Stone

This was way shorter of how I remember it. It's a sequence of disjointed pieces which have in common the brick setting. The most remarkable thing is the fire used, both at the archviles where you are required to perform a jump, and in the "fountain" of flames in the final area. The almost total lack of healh until the blue key chapel is the only thing that gives more difficulty to this map.

[antares031]

MAP22 - The Seeker
ZDoom, UV - Pistol Start, KIS(%): 100/100/100

What a beautiful level. This level shares many positive things from MAP19, such as highly explorable environment, fine medieval architectural detail for vanilla doom standard, well-designed monster placements with no boring moments, and acceptable puzzles to solve in order to proceed the level(most of them are shootable walls). After all, these levels, MAP11,19,22, were designed by the same person. About the layout of fortress, the majority of areas are large enough to move around without getting surrounded by monsters. Some people may don't like the overall size of this map since it makes the combat less challenging. But although it's not challenging, it is fun to play this level thanks to the beautiful non-orthogonal layout, and many other positive elements of this level. Despite the size of this map, somehow I've never felt that I was lost during the whole gameplay. Lots of areas are connected nicely with stairs and corridors, so it was not a big problem to navigate the whole level. The final combat with a horde of monsters and cyberdemons are not bad. Sure, you need to face 4 cyberdemons at once, but this level has a mercy to throw tons of supplies around the arena. In conclusion, it's another great level for the Eternal Doom, and I had no complain to find the last secret for a couple of minutes after I killed every single monsters in the level since I really wanted to beat this level with perfect UV-Max.

[punnyone]

Map 21 - Fire And Stone - 91% Kills, 100% Secrets.

In terms of size and scope, Fire And Stone is the last "Breather" level in the set. The map is separated into four quadrants, almost like a bite-size version of Celebration Of Evil. The first area features some really neat visuals such as the unique target switch that lowers the stairs into the first building, and the stone storm drains which clandestinely lead into the ornate chapel/ritual chamber. The arachnitron battle on the invisible bridge can be a bit frustrating, especially if someone does a pistol start. Fortunately, the rocket launcher is literally right around the corner.

The second area has the abstract circular building which shifts its floor around allowing further progression into the archville yard. The "Jump Here" sign of course couldn't be any more obvious. After gradually opening up the way into the third area, a small lava and blackstone filled chamber, we enter the fourth and final zone. Here, there is a tough spiral staircase fight where enemies teleport behind you, as well as the cool looking fire tower. The final fight against a wave of cacodemons is totally avoidable.

Overall, a pleasant smaller level, which offers moderate challenge, and contains nice visuals.

[dobu gabu maru]

MAP21: This map is more fleshed out than MAP13, but still evokes the same kind of feeling from me—a collection of ideas that could’ve been executed better. Only room I thought was impressive was the last one with the big fire fountain (though I also thought the hall of midtex walls were rad too), but other than that it joins the many others that are over so quickly that you barely have time to form an opinion on it. At least I didn’t get lost?

[Pirx]

Demon of the Well said:

One thing that occurred to me reading about others' experience with the map is that it may not actually be the puzzles and confounding progression per se that ends up really souring folks on the map, but rather that they're punctuated by some rather abrasive combat. Some of the traps here are actually really fucking nasty, nastier than anything previously seen in the set, nastier than I had remembered, even. The map also fields a rather unfriendly pistol-start, and the proceedings can easily stay that way for a player not finding many secrets as s/he goes along, making the battle engagements take longer (very easy to miss both the SSG and the RL) and making combat mistakes punishing, which can result in death in the jaws of one of the various dick traps, which in turn is probably not very conducive to the sort of patient, studious mindset one likely needs to solve the brainteasers. In essence, the traps themselves are really just crasser puzzles, not in the "what weird dance do I need to do to survive this?" sense that characterizes modern high-choreography mapsets, but simply in that you either learn them or sniff them out so you can game them and not be slowed down too much. A very "you versus the spiteful dungeon master" sort of thing, as I've said previously--there's no glamour to the battles here whatsoever, only room for stark pragmatism.

thank you for this precise analysis, since it's exactly what made me leave this map for later, because my "fucking lost souls" rant yesterday was caused by not having ssg & rl soon, only a shotgun and a fist, but having to put up with chaingunners in the dark. not only is this map itself a puzzle, but it kills you for not solving this. still, it's the embodiment of ED's "puzzle doom" concept, hence very successful in this regard, for everyone who likes the concept.


MAP21 - “Fire and Stone” by Adam Landefeld

a short map with a really likeable music track. the map itself is pretty abstract, a building of gray stone far from the representational style of the castles and chapels until now. arachnotrons walk the void, archviles hidden in a fire help you jump onto a wall, a stairway where a few monsters teleport behind you ineffectually, and finally that room with the bonfire that gives the map its name, indeed a beautiful sight.

[Crusader No Regret]

Map 20:

This is a brilliant and diabolical map, provided one has the mindset present to wrangle with it. The difficulty settings are well implemented here. Skill 2 is quite deserted allowing one to focus on the difficulty of seeking out the progression while UV seems designed for people who have already found most of the secrets and are familiar with the monster placement as well (or continuous carrying over weapons from previous maps).

My earliest treks on this map way back when I first played were on skill 2. Didn't find SSG or RL. The first armor in the map was by the optional yellow door. Gave up and restarted at a later date multiple times before I finally uncovered enough of the secrets to reach the red key exit. Found PG by then. Didn't find the easier one until watching a walkthrough/demo.

I've played around with a editor before so I knew that "use" switches can theoretically be placed anywhere. Having some familiarity with the engine also helps a bit. The sequence to access the BFG (yes, it is reachable) is particularly diabolical. Other than some seemingly random wall-humping to start that side trek (though I may have missed a subtle clue), the rest of the sequence can be sniffed out by observation, experimentation, and a bit of bent imagination.

[baja blast rd.]

You guys said it was short, so FDA for map21.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/5cu8bacgl2t13qo/eternall21_rdwpa_fda.lmp

Combat seemed softballed even by the standards of Eternal Doom. I didn't like the whole AV section. Decent idea, awkward execution -- the vile enclosure seems to lead to ammo waste. I like the mandatory (?) AV jump I guess, but the text is really tacky. Too short to be offensive, but doesn't leave much of a mark.

[T-Rex]

So with two-thirds of Eternal Doom done, we're now at the last third, and it looks like we got a nice small map to start off.

Map21: Fire and Stone (Adam Landefeld)
100% kills, 100% items, 100% secrets
Time: 08:57

There are a couple more short maps in the final episode of Eternal Doom, but this is the last map that you can beat in under 10 minutes. It feels like a lighter and smaller version of Celebration of Evil as some pointed out, though this map came before it development-wise. It's a medieval castle map, though you're being teleported through a series of small sections (ala Deimos Anomaly). The first has you humping the wall in front of you twice to lower some stairs down into the fortress. There's three doors leading to their respected balconies where you can see from outside a couple of arachnotrons floating in the sky, including a wooden tower with a switch. The end reaches a fork, where the left goes to an aqueduct which leads to the blue key chapel. Next section has you inside a quasi-circular tower with imps, spectres, and later an arachnotron, and outside you need one of the arch-viles hidden behind flame pits to get you on the wall and hit the switch which puts out the bottom-right pit, which leads to a sequence where you hit the switches in the third section to put out the rest of the pits. The final section has go going up a spiral staircase (much better than Guardstation's) with teleporting enemies and then to the large bonfire chamber where you must hit a couple of switches to reveal the exit portal. Short, sweet, and straightforward, this is a good breather map from the big adventure maps that were Warheros and Silures. Enjoy it while you can.

Map22: The Seeker (Chris Couleur)
100% kills, 100% items, 100% secrets
Time: 25:28

Chris Couleur strikes again with another large-scale castle map, and all I got to say is that THIS MAP ROCKS! I absolutely enjoy this map, it's got such grand architecture that we've seen in his previous maps, but they are absolutely well-done here, and it is much bigger. The first half, which you'll be spending the most, is somewhat of a labyrinth, complete with rooms that are nicely interconnected by a network of corridors and passageways. The castle itself has so many windows where you can see out in the open and get awed by the beautiful scenery. The outdoors are complete with moats and gardens. Puzzles are present in the map, but nothing so cryptic, as they're mostly keeping an eye for cracked walls as they contain secrets or hidden passages that will allow you to progress further into the map. Although there's so many passages, they're thankfully not cramped, so you'll never find yourself getting claustrophobic for the most part. The blue key isn't difficult to find, but once you're up to finding the red key, you'll have to find a cracked wall in one of the rock formations in the spacious garden at the south. Finally, once you're up to finding the yellow key, you need to keep your eyes peeled for the ladders. Once you have the yellow key, you can access either of the two yellow doors marked by the "Abandon All Hope" sign. Both go to the latter half of the map, and it has got to be one of the best endings ever orchestrated. It's a huge square complete with balconies and a central courtyard with a structure in the middle. It's very HR-esque, to say the least, and it's got a very intense fight. As you hunt for the switches in the balconies, hidden doors open up unleashing legions of monsters that will all home in on you. On top of that, the central area has four cyberdemons. Two at the bottom and two at the top, so have your BFG9000 ready. Tough map, and it's massive, with lots of exploration. In spite of the size of the map, it's not difficult to figure out, you won't get lost, and you won't get bored at all as plenty of monsters spawn in and appear in places you've already been. Lots of action to keep you on your toes, and the architecture helps to keep the map interesting. The music is awesome as well. Rich Nagel has made a lot of great tracks for Eternal Doom, but this one is possibly the best, and it really has that medieval sound to it. Such an epic adventure, and definitely high up there in my top 10 Eternal Doom maps.

Well, I'm gonna take a weekend break as usual, so until then, see you guys later.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP22 The Seeker

Another favorite from Couleur, incredibly large but at no point would I feel lost. Odd secret sector just before the blue key, which isn't actually hard to figure out. Not really tricky in any way, apart from that one involving a few teleporting enemies. Just really straightforward but simply long. Some people might not figure out that they just have to press the red key pillar to lower it, though. The very large square area where the exit is is a certain highlight. The hardest part is actually clearing out every monster while you press switches around the corners. Then figuring out that it's more than just cyberdemons that are major threats in the center. Some of those columns pave way for cacos, plus a hell knight stuck inside.

[TheOrganGrinder]

MAP22: The Seeker

A map of two halves - one part twisty castle maze of keys and courtyards, the other a pitched battle against four cyberdemons and assorted henchmen, underlings, and hangers-on. I liked the first more than the second, but that's a matter of personal taste, not a commentary on the designer's talent. There's lots to enjoy here, a map that's intricate without being convoluted and obtuse, enough tricks and small-scale puzzles to provide occasional breathers in the action but not to leave you feeling stumped and frustrated, and some really fun combat that makes the most of the fact that, in many parts of the map, lines of sight are wide open even though movement is restricted. You'll have revenant missiles and balls of green Baron of Hell plasma whoosing though the air at you from parts of the castle you've yet to visit - or from parts you thought you'd already cleared, now repopulating to provide some fire support in opposition of your best efforts.

I'd be interested to know which of this and MAP19 was created first - the early castle sections of this map have a more 'natural' feel than MAP19's ornate multi-level central space, which is visually quite epic and directly serves the demands of gameplay. Does one represent a progression, a refinement, a further development of the other, and if so, in which 'direction' is the author travelling? Or were they developed simultaneously to different specifications? The map author has a distinctive style that invites detailed analysis. :)

[antares031]

MAP23 - Time Gate II
ZDoom, UV - Pistol Start, KIS(%): 99/100/100

Time to take time portals. This level is a series of small levels, divided by the timeline(or colored keys, for more precisely). That means the progression is highly linear, just killing some monsters that are blocking your way. Just make sure to be aware of arch-vile ambushes, as always. Once you beat the one timeline, you won't go back to that timeline unless you find the secret area. Speaking of secret, there's a super secret area where you can fight a horde of cacodemons in the middle of the sky, which is simple but cool. The combat is just okay, except some tricky moments such as teleporting monsters in the narrow stairs. Thankfully, this level is generous enough to give you a plenty of supplies and BFG. Overall, it's not a great level, but memorable thanks to the concept of this level.

[gaspe]

MAP22 - The Seeker

A big gorgeuos castle level. I really like Couleur's style of using those more irregural shapes, it gives a more natural touch to the setting. The best thing visually is that the map is plenty of windows and opening that give views on other areas or parts of the complex. The last big square courtyard is a bit reminiscent of the last area of Forlorn Fortress, but I guess that he really liked to make these kind of structure as also MAP24 has a similar one. There's a nice ammount of action going on everytime, but Couleur doesn't make big hordes of monsters and combats will be light for the most. Fantastic map.