Why do so many people dislike Doom II?

[Olroda]

janvknn said:

How about NUKAGE as a ceiling texture in E1M8 then?

Isn't that obvious? While the Phobos base is less corrupt than UAC-Deimos, E1M8 is the source of the invasion. I don't find it one bit strange that the area surrounding the anomaly have parts that are "beyond human comprehension".

Also, it seems that quite a few people harbour a strong dislike against the Chasm.
Why is that so? I thought it was all right. Perhaps not great, but...

[Koko Ricky]

Honestly, it's just because those catwalks are so goddamned narrow! If they had been a good 32 unites wide, even 16, that would have been sufficient. But they're so narrow, that if you save your game on one of the catwalks while playing it in DOS mode (I think even Zdoom might cause this issue), the game will reposition you slightly and you end up stuck in the wall or falling off into the nukage!

[deadwolves]

I find the map design boring. Doom 1 maps tend to focus on balanced room sizes, where Doom 2 has too many wide open arenas where it turns into a shitfest and relies too much on monster overkill. Maps like Dead Simple and Downtown are ok, but I can't stand most of the early maps and many of the hell maps.

Plus this might sound weird but the super shotgun really relegates the regular shotgun and makes taking out the grunts too easy. Demons and Spectres aren't much of a threat any more, and the new bad guys aren't very convincing (except the Archville) Wish they had brought in a new energy weapon instead.

[Graf Zahl]

Olroda said:

Why is that so? I thought it was all right. Perhaps not great, but...

It may have to do with the fact that those thin walkways were somewhat glitchy with Doom2.exe. For example, players tended to get stuck in them when loading a saved game.

I wouldn't call the map 'bad' but it had elements that were at least very questionable.

If I had to name my least favorite maps in Doom 2 it'd be MAP21, followed immediately by MAP08 - both of which featured an incredibly amateurish design style. The Chasm wouldn't even enter my bottom 5.

[Lila Feuer]

Doom II's gimmicky levels like The Crusher, Tricks & Traps and Barrels of Fun were wasted slots.

[scifista42]

^ Now I'm not sure if you're against "gimmicky-ness" out of principle, or if you just claim that the D2 ones were done badly. If the former, I disagree, and if the latter, I kinda agree, but (at the very least) Tricks & Traps wasn't a "wasted slot", even if it wasn't perfect. I find "gimmicks" to add to the strengths of the game and the engine, making it more than just a corridor shooter or a maze, but also being an inspirative food for thought.

[DoomzRules]

I felt there could have been more weapons, more monster variants, and a more Gothic-themed level design... Scythe 2 was and still is my ideal Doom II.... =)

[roadworx]

I should've known that this topic would spark arguments.

[Lila Feuer]

roadworx said:

I should've known that this topic would spark arguments.

Surprise surprise, its the internet.

[yakfak]

prefering Doom 1 to Doom 2 is like having your favourite Radiohead song be "Creep"

[Spectre01]

Woah, people talking shit about Tricks and Traps now? It's one of the most memorable maps in Doom 2 and the highlight of the first episode. It's also one of the first maps with slaughter sections, and as we all know, slaughter = high quality gameplay.

[jazzmaster9]

I can agree that doom 2's level design is inferior to Ultimate Doom.
The gameplay is where it shines, all of the maps look ugly as hell but Its fun.

As to the Chasm, I love that map simply because it's a big middle finger to the players. I hated it at first, but then came to appreciate it a bit more for doing something different and playing with the engines use of elevation.

but there is something a lot of people agree on, D_TENSE is the best track in all of DooM.

[scifista42]

roadworx said:

I should've known that this topic would spark arguments.

Arguments are a good thing as a way of exchanging ideas and opinions and providing enlightenment and inspiration. Arguments involving trolling, screaming etc are best to be avoided, but arguments out of principle are all OK.

[Li'l devil]

jazzmaster9 said:

but there is something a lot of people agree on, D_TENSE is the best track in all of DooM.

No fucking way

[Jan]

yakfak said:

prefering Doom 1 to Doom 2 is like having your favourite Radiohead song be "Creep"

More like preferring pre Black Album Metallica over post Black Album Metallica.

[VGamingJunkie]

Olroda said:

Also, it seems that quite a few people harbour a strong dislike against the Chasm.
Why is that so? I thought it was all right. Perhaps not great, but...

Probably because having to carefully navigate thin ledges in a game that's supposed to be all about high octane action seems slightly lame. I'll give some slight credit for at least mercifully including platforms that rise to meet the thin ledges so that makes it easier to traverse over time but still, it's definitely one of the low points of Doom 2 in my opinion.

[Avoozl]

I don't find anything lame about it as it does add some variety to the gameplay.

[roadworx]

deadwolves said:

Plus this might sound weird but the super shotgun really relegates the regular shotgun and makes taking out the grunts too easy. Demons and Spectres aren't much of a threat any more, and the new bad guys aren't very convincing (except the Archville) Wish they had brought in a new energy weapon instead.

the normal shotgun is still a great weapon if you're looking to shoot something at a long range.

[joe-ilya]

Avoozl said:

I don't find anything lame about it as it does add some variety to the gameplay.

It's done super bad, the ending is the worst part, because you may fall to the unescapeable pit while lost souls keep pinching you.

[scifista42]

^ To be fair, there are no Lost Souls, unless you lead them there from another parts of the map and keep them alive before you attempt to exit. But the inescapable pit sure is annoying. At least a teleporter into the exit room opens when the first platform descends, so that the map is completable in coop or if you immediately step back after stepping onto the first platform.

EDIT: Nevermind, I thought you were talking about Tricks & Traps, I see now that it was The Chasm.

[Graf Zahl]

rileymartin said:

Woah, people talking shit about Tricks and Traps now? It's one of the most memorable maps in Doom 2 and the highlight of the first episode. It's also one of the first maps with slaughter sections, and as we all know, slaughter = high quality gameplay.

That level's design is piss-poor. Sandy Petersen at his very worst. It's just an incoherent hodgepodge of interconnected random rooms.

[VGamingJunkie]

It's pretty much a troll level, you pick a room and that determines your fate. It also seems designed to be played on a pistol start since you pretty much HAVE to go through the optional horde rooms to get any weapons since you'll need them to get through the mandatory Baron/Cyberdemon room, even with infighting. One nice thing I'll say about it is most of the doors being able to close so you can prevent the wrong kinds of monsters from becoming active.

[Six]

rileymartin said:

Woah, people talking shit about Tricks and Traps now? It's one of the most memorable maps in Doom 2 and the highlight of the first episode. It's also one of the first maps with slaughter sections, and as we all know, slaughter = high quality gameplay.

I can't tell if this entire post was sarcasm.

I hope it was.

[Doomkid]

I love Tricks and Traps. First starting the map gives the player a daunting feeling, so many different rooms to choose from. It does the courtesy of starting you facing the demon door, where you're given rockets which make short work of the trapped pinkies - kill em before those stairs rise! The buttons let you out and open the entrance to the BFG/soulsphere secret, but where you go from here determines your fate. The next room to the right is simply a trap, but an easily survivable one, but to the left is the hive of cacos..

Man this level made me so tense when I played it. I fail to see anything "random" about it, unless people dislike nonlinear gameplay. No areas in the map are strkingly ugly, and if you open, say, the baron room when you only have the pistol and you try to take them on anyway, that death is your fault. The only thing I dislike about the entire map is the sinking bridge before the exit. Still though, one of my favorites.

[Lila Feuer]

The thin walkways in The Chasm fuck up the pacing and make the level take longer than it should. I also always hate the bit where you got to go across a ziggy-zaggy thin path which eventually raises the remaining ground while Lost Souls pelt you and sometimes knock you into the slime.

[VGamingJunkie]

That moment near the ending in The Spirit World was pretty obnoxious. How was anyone supposed to know that you had to open the exit door by shooting the symbol on the wall? How often does that actually happen in Doom? I could understand if it was for a secret area but that was for the exit, it was mandatory. Guide dang it. The actual level wasn't terrible but that's probably one of the weakest moments for Doom 2 in my opinion.

[Deleted_Account]

I don't really like Doom II. The new additions are nice, but it seems to me after the first few levels I grow tired of it. Recently, however, I have been playing through it again to try and find an appreciation for it.

[baja blast rd.]

Cyanosis said:

Doom II's gimmicky levels ... The Crusher

Very first example demonstrates that you don't even have a coherent definition of "gimmicky". If it were named "The Stronghold" or something you'd see it for what it is -- a normal-ass level where a SM just happens to be crushed. But it's "The Crusher" and a SM is crushed, so zomg, gimmicks! But no, there is no unifying, recurring concept; there's typical gameplay, then a one-off crusher, and then a return to typical gameplay.

[VGamingJunkie]

You could argue that much of the Original Doom was gimmicky as well, in terms of showing off their new engine as much as they could.

[Lila Feuer]

Well when you get to the heart of it all in the grand scheme of things everything is a gimmick, isn't that funny?