How To Stop Setting Yourself Up for Disappointment

[Chezza]

sheridan said:

You raise an interesting point, and my mind actually goes to some John Romero interview I remember reading a while ago where he said roughly that his vision for multiplayer in Doom3 (provided he had designed the game) would've been a large-scale battlefield-esque type game, which for the time (early 2000s) was clearly a bit ahead of the curve. I wish I could find that interview so it wouldn't seem like I was talking out of my hat, but when you mentioned open worlds and other playstyles I just thought it was worth mentioning.

Yeah I remember that interview, it was posted on these forums not too long ago. When I saw that I was a bit surprised. But it goes to show that even the classic developers evolve. And of course Doom was a massive evolution of its time so the ideology of staying true to old school mechanics isn't necessarily as strong of value as trying to new things, to these guys.

[Mechazawa]

There isn't anything wrong with staying true to old school mechanics when they work. People still play chess because chess works and its old as fuck. The quake-style arena shooter system (quake 2, being my favorite) works, it doesn't really need adjusting. Fast-paced, strafe jumping, laz0rs and rockets, and enclosed maps with a bunch of people. It works. It is what people expected and they didn't get.

My guess is they didn't get it because people in general suck at video games these days and they want to appeal to a wide audience, you couldn't be half-assed in quake 2 and expect to get kills. Maybe I am just pessimistic but real competitive multiplayer doesn't exist anymore, almost everything is stats based now. So, I in general don't even care for multiplayer anymore unless its PvE. Your skill (read: dexterity) doesn't matter in competetive gaming anymore, all that matters is the numbers and (lel) how many clicks per minute you got because apparently spamming buttons is win.

This is why stuff like LoL is so popular, it doesn't require any amount of dexterity or hand eye coordination, all it requires is a wiki and knowledge of what counters what. Google isn't skill. I think many people feel the same way I do and they are waiting for a competitive multiplayer game that actually required you to get good at it. I mean, the concept of a fucking "meta" didn't exist when I played multiplayer games back in the day (im such an old fart), competition these days is all about countering shit with what ever is "meta". It even sounds douchy to say. Competition is (should be) about simple and easy to understand rules; and all that is different about each player is how good they are at that system, that's it.

[BluePineapple72]

I have a good feeling that they're going to release a new trailer today (they usually do it around 10:00 - 11:00), but I hope I'm not setting myself up for disappointment :/

But it they do you can be sure I'll make a thread about it as soon as I can B)

:(

[Arctangent]

Mechazawa said:

Basically, I talk about stuff I know nothing about.

[TheGamePhilosophe]

AirRaid said:

People are not saying "Doom MP is meh because the design isn't good enough" people are saying "Doom MP is bad because it is not like Quake 3". This is not a commentary on bad design, this is an unrealistic expectation for a non Quake game to be exactly like Quake.

That's not what they mean when they compare it to Quake 3, not most of them anyway. They only compare it to give some sense of a concrete expectation, of an idea as to what an arena fps is like, in contrast to the standard fair of today.

You're parodying the other side to dismiss them without dealing with the real substance of the mass critique of the MP. If you want to hone in on the most superficial complaints, you can do that. But there are tons of thoughtful ones out there, on steam, on youtube, and being written by journalists.

It seems to me that the choice to focus on sarcastic, snippy steam reviews is deliberate on the part of the doom defenders here. By concentrating on the "dumb ass" steam reviews, they can draw attention away from the thoughtful ones.

[Arctangent]

I think it's far less something deliberate and more just sheer annoyances at people parroting the same types of criticism over and over against despite it being really dumb criticism.

[Almonds]

TheGamePhilosophe said:

That's not what they mean when they compare it to Quake 3, not most of them anyway. They only compare it to give some sense of a concrete expectation, of an idea as to what an arena fps is like, in contrast to the standard fair of today.

You're parodying the other side to dismiss them without dealing with the real substance of the mass critique of the MP. If you want to hone in on the most superficial complaints, you can do that. But there are tons of thoughtful ones out there, on steam, on youtube, and being written by journalists.

It seems to me that the choice to focus on sarcastic, snippy steam reviews is deliberate on the part of the doom defenders here. By concentrating on the "dumb ass" steam reviews, they can draw attention away from the thoughtful ones.

the more elaborated reviews are far and few inbetween, but when they DO get brought onto the table, they oftentimes elaborate on the exact same points that have already been exposed and dissected to death here, be it loadouts, xp system, what have you. Those are generally agreed upon for the most part and are lauded as absolute objective criticism here, which shows a fair moderation of reception from people in this forum, which certainly speaks for something, don't you think?

Unfortunately, more often than not, it's the shitty less-than-20-words type of reviews that are the most vocal by far. Don't be surprised when people make out the big picture and the first thing they notice is the crock of shit smeared all over the Mona Lisa's face as if it were a moustache.

[MrHofmann]

TheGamePhilosophe said:

But there are tons of thoughtful ones out there, on steam, on youtube, and being written by journalists.

It seems to me that the choice to focus on sarcastic, snippy steam reviews is deliberate on the part of the doom defenders here. By concentrating on the "dumb ass" steam reviews, they can draw attention away from the thoughtful ones.

Haven't seen one thoughtful review on steam or youtube, and judging by your last two posts (IGN article and youtube bell ringing idiot review), I am very skeptical of your perception of a thoughtful review.

[Mechazawa]

Arctangent said:

I react to people with sarcastic hostility because its the hip thing to do.

Your response was basically the kind of attitude that people are giving to Doom in the steam reviews. What I brought up was pretty standard narrative on modern competitive multiplayer games.

[Jaxxoon R]

Quake 3 is just people hopping around like idiots, there's no actual strategy or thought. It's just a bunch of gorillas running off of gorilla instincts and ranting about douchey words like "skill" when in reality all that "skill" amounts to is everyone taking advantage of the same physics bugs. If you want to use speedrun tactics on your own time then fine, but don't get mad when not everyone wants to play Smash Bros. like it was Marvel VS Capcom fed through Super Metroid AGDQ.

See, I just made a narrative on classic competitive multiplayer games. Doesn't mean what I had to say was any good.

[Spectre01]

The complaints are hilarious because most of those people probably don't even play arena shooters anymore but are all apparently seasoned Quake pros. Look at Quake Live's population. The amount of people claiming to want to bunnyhop across the map at 70km/h like an idiot is significantly lower than the actual amount of people who enjoy bunnyhopping across the map at 70km/h like an idiot.

[ChickenOrBeef]

rileymartin said:

The complaints are hilarious because most of those people probably don't even play arena shooters anymore but are all apparently seasoned Quake pros. Look at Quake Live's population. The amount of people claiming to want to bunnyhop across the map at 70km/h like an idiot is significantly lower than the actual amount of people who enjoy bunnyhopping across the map at 70km/h like an idiot.

Reflex and Toxikk also have abysmally small communities even though those look to be two cool Arena shooters. (I don't have a decent PC, so I haven't played them).

Even Unreal Tournament 4 has a pretty small community from what I've heard. So all in all, it is funny to see so many people come out of the woodwork yearning for a true Arena FPS when they're not even playing some good, new options.

[Silverforte]

Well at least something similar is coming to console, when it comes to non military/halo stuff on console you're basically out of luck, I still pop in quake 4 or doom on 360 only for it to be completely dead.

To be perfectly honest, I am more into fps games for a rich single player experience, to which I am sure Doom 4 will deliver, so I'm not worried.

[Mechazawa]

Jaxxoon R said:

Quake 3 is just people hopping around like idiots, there's no actual strategy or thought. It's just a bunch of gorillas running off of gorilla instincts and ranting about douchey words like "skill" when in reality all that "skill" amounts to is everyone taking advantage of the same physics bugs. If you want to use speedrun tactics on your own time then fine, but don't get mad when not everyone wants to play Smash Bros. like it was Marvel VS Capcom fed through Super Metroid AGDQ.

See, I just made a narrative on classic competitive multiplayer games. Doesn't mean what I had to say was any good.

Sounds like someone is mad that they weren't that good in classic arena shooters :P.

I don't play multiplayer these days anymore anyways (tf2 killed it for me), I simply provided the explanation that I believe people had. There is a very big difference between competition involving numbers and competition involving skill. It is like the difference between Football (Soccer) and Chess, football takes skill and chess takes memorizing algorithms. Anyone can learn an algorithm, not everyone can go into a football field and kick goals left and right (or block them for that matter). In our case, you have a bunch of people used to football who now find them in a world of competition where almost everything involves numbers and memorization; of course they will complain and say there is a lack of skill. Because this new era of competition allows more people to participate effectively, its perceived as dumbing down (which, it is). I mean we literally rank players in starcraft and MOBA's based on how many clicks and key presses they can spam in a minute. The "skill" involved in these games is effectively to google the current meta and its counter and then play that by following the build/path. I believe that also contributes more to the perceived lack of skill as well; the fact that we can just google solutions to everything. More people beat more games because they googled the answer rather than back in the old days where you just had to keep playing and dying over and over until you got it. "Read the Wiki" is a knee-jerk reaction to any question about something in a video game these days.

[Jaxxoon R]

I've never even looked at Quake 3.

Why are you taking obvious bullshit seriously.

I even said it was bullshit. Jesus.

I mean we get it, you think your competitive multiplayer is better than other people's competitive multiplayer because it appeals to you more.

[tuo]

edit: nevermind

[Arctangent]

Mechazawa said:

I don't really know that sarcasm is, I just assume it's when people disagree with me or call me out when I make clearly false statements.

[HavoX]

Arctangent... was that necessary?

[Arctangent]

Probably not, but a translation for someone whose voice box is part of their rectum is always a handy thing.

I mean, I would certainly prefer people to not latch onto the opinions of someone who has such a negative hateboner for something they really don't understand a single thing about, all while calling someone out for something they projected onto them.

[Carny Goat]

TLDR

Better way: Go back in time and convince your parents to conceive you around 2003 or later. WARNING: Your first game will likely be Gears of War and you will compare it to everything else but nothing will ever top it.

[ChickenOrBeef]

Carniverous Goat said:

TLDR

Better way: Go back in time and convince your parents to conceive you around 2003 or later. WARNING: Your first game will likely be Gears of War and you will compare it to everything else but nothing will ever top it.

Haha my older brother (who is 28) has that viewpoint. Whenever I tell him about a new shooter he always ends up saying he would just rather play Gears. I think Gears is great, but something like DOOM has a different appeal due to the constant movement. So I appreciate both.

[TheWizard]

Hey guys, those old games still exist you know.

[Mechazawa]

Arctangent said:

Probably not, but a translation for someone whose voice box is part of their rectum is always a handy thing.

I mean, I would certainly prefer people to not latch onto the opinions of someone who has such a negative hateboner for something they really don't understand a single thing about, all while calling someone out for something they projected onto them.

Who has a negative hateboner? lol.