3 Simple Changes that Could Save the MP Mode

[Jaxxoon R]

ChickenOrBeef said:

double jump

The double jump's lack of directional control was odd to me, I did get used to it after a while, but it just seems odd that rocket jets with the force to push a man into the air can't push him forwards as well. Maybe that was to prevent people from doing it repeatedly in the same direction to build up speed, hm...

[Carny Goat]

How about a fucking server list!
Jesus Christ, I hate match making.
One god forsaken little quality of life feature that gets overlooked every time id Software makes a new game. I know you want to get thrusted into a game right away. But it's better just to see what you jumping into before you're all BOOM BOOM DEATH MATCH GOING TO PWN NEWBS!!!!11111!! You know without it, you're going to get paired up with foreigners and your connection is going to be shit. You're going to look lulzy in front of them. You're going to bitch about lag and all that stupid shit just because you're too lazy to look at a fucking server list with info on player matches and location statistics.

[LittleBurger]

DMGUYDZ64 said:

Don't forget the loadouts, They better spread the weapons around the levels and let players look for them , I don't have serious problems with it but i think having those weapons on start of round would really make the game feel boring .

Or if they decide to keep it they should at least remove few weapons from it like Plasma Rifle, Super Shotgun and Rocket Launcher and Vortex Rifle, Of course after increasing damage fo the Weak ones (Plasma and Rocket Launcher) .

I think they should go with the load outs being the combat shotgun, pistol, and HAR. Then spread the rest on the levels (or even having the ones that show up on the map changing depending on what map it is).

[RightField]

If they are smart they'll include a separate game hosting service as well as the automated match making service where you can change rules such as game speed and loadouts vs pickups. I think it's probable they will, based on the feedback.

[LittleBurger]

RightField said:

If they are smart they'll include a separate game hosting service as well as the automated match making service where you can change rules such as game speed and loadouts vs pickups. I think it's probable they will, based on the feedback.

I did notice that warpath sometimes had rounds that has the point score at I think it may have been 250 or something. So I assume something like changing various rules is possible.

[Eternal0]

Carniverous Goat said:

How about a fucking server list!
Jesus Christ, I hate match making.
One god forsaken little quality of life feature that gets overlooked every time id Software makes a new game. I know you want to get thrusted into a game right away. But it's better just to see what you jumping into before you're all BOOM BOOM DEATH MATCH GOING TO PWN NEWBS!!!!11111!! You know without it, you're going to get paired up with foreigners and your connection is going to be shit. You're going to look lulzy in front of them. You're going to bitch about lag and all that stupid shit just because you're too lazy to look at a fucking server list with info on player matches and location statistics.

This is yet another thing that is a consolation due to console based design that much of the game uses. How many console FPS games can you name that allow a server list? Sorry. I want it too but it ain't going away.

There are many limitations due to controls or other design issues.

The limitation to two weapons at a time is specifically because of consoles, it's also why almost every FPS or 3PS in modern times use this. Playing on a gamepad it's difficult to wield more than 2~4 weapons due to control layout. The natural weapon swap feature is D-pad, however even that forces you to take your finger off of the movement stick for a moment so the addition of a quick swap button is better for a faster paced game. Having a 2~3 weapon limit makes sense for a PC FPS in a game where there are distinct classes such as TF2 but it's kind of required in console design.

I want a classic no load out type of FPS but the game was designed console first so it will never happen. It's the same reason that this is about the fastest speed we will see Doom movement and why the jumps are floaty, though the floaty jumps can be adjusted. The floaty jumps and long air time are because a gamepad doesn't easily support quick aiming or turning to allow complex movement.

These are complaints I have about the game that I fully understand wont be resolved unless mod tools for PC are released, which have been specifically stated to not happen thanks to Snap map which I have a strong feeling will not allow deep control of mechanics like that. The game will likely continue to require load outs, and the best you might be able to do is add a bunch of haste spawns to speed up the game.

----

As for number tweaks I didn't mention:

Melee and Vortex damage needs to be toned down and/or modified. Frankly I believe that the static gun should charge a bit faster and become the sniper rifle of the game. Doom and other arena shoots have always been about continued movement with very little downtime of course. A sniper rifle goes directly against that. The vortex rifle does too much damage for how quickly it charges. I'd actually like it flat out removed in favor of static but that wont happen. Vortex takes less than half of a second to charge up and body shot for more than any other weapon including a direct rocket.

Full charge headshot is fairly easy to do once you get used to it and it does more than twice the damage of a direct rocket and 50% more than a direct static. At 126 damage it kills anyone even after a medium armor pickup. Under the context of how fast the game is the vortex ends up being better than the railgun was in Q3 IMO.

Melee has too much of a lock on, which is because of console based design and wont go away. This lock on for 35 damage and instant fire with a high chance to land an glory kill and very little recovery needs a tweak. it's extremely easy to spam and kill if you've done any damage to opponent. It needs a longer cool down where you cannot fire or perform another melee and/or slightly less damage.

Demon runes need to have a shorter duration. Bethesda says that the Revenant is one of the weaker demons yet it wipes for floor with people. It has 75% reduced damage taken during startup, it one hits almost anyone, and at 300 health it's easily able to get 5+ kills before dying. Frankly it feels stronger than a quad damage in the right hands. Considering that the prowler's strength is that it 1shots anyone the revs does that from range and with splash I dunno what the point of the prowler is.

Gauss needs reduced splash and damage dropped to 110 or 100 perhaps with 1 more shot added. Again, the main strength of the Chainsaw is listed as it one shots people, yet it has a forced execution animation, and melee range. Gauss does 150 so you one shot a group of people from half way across the map instantly guaranteed.

[RaikohZX]

Eternal0 said:

This is yet another thing that is a consolation due to console based design that much of the game uses. How many console FPS games can you name that allow a server list? Sorry. I want it too but it ain't going away.

There are many limitations due to controls or other design issues.

The limitation to two weapons at a time is specifically because of consoles, it's also why almost every FPS or 3PS in modern times use this. Playing on a gamepad it's difficult to wield more than 2~4 weapons due to control layout. The natural weapon swap feature is D-pad, however even that forces you to take your finger off of the movement stick for a moment so the addition of a quick swap button is better for a faster paced game. Having a 2~3 weapon limit makes sense for a PC FPS in a game where there are distinct classes such as TF2 but it's kind of required in console design.

I want a classic no load out type of FPS but the game was designed console first so it will never happen. It's the same reason that this is about the fastest speed we will see Doom movement and why the jumps are floaty, though the floaty jumps can be adjusted. The floaty jumps and long air time are because a gamepad doesn't easily support quick aiming or turning to allow complex movement.

These are complaints I have about the game that I fully understand wont be resolved unless mod tools for PC are released, which have been specifically stated to not happen thanks to Snap map which I have a strong feeling will not allow deep control of mechanics like that. The game will likely continue to require load outs, and the best you might be able to do is add a bunch of haste spawns to speed up the game.

I love how everyone does this "it's the consoles fault because they can't handle multiple weapons" despite the weapon wheel in singleplayer and the fact that while the game is consolized, obviously the loadouts and no weapon pickups are entirely the fault of the consoles.

Have you taken a moment to look at Certain Affinity's track record with Halo and Call of Duty? It's not because it's a console shooter, they have more than enough to work with from what Id presented them. It's because they're used to a specific style of shooter and tried to awkwardly shoehorn in Id's new Doom on a familiar basis that happens to be similar to many popular console shooters. Incidentally, while Halo on Xbox created the two-weapon style for balancing, it kept weapons on the map; Call of Duty 1, which had no regenerating health, was what sorta popularized two weapons and no weapon pickups on the map (although you could take enemy weapons), and that game started the series on PC. Coincidentally on a variant of the same engine that powered Quake 3 (and still powers Call of Duty to this day).

[NoirSuede]

RikohZX said:

I love how everyone does this "it's the consoles fault because they can't handle multiple weapons" despite the weapon wheel in singleplayer and the fact that while the game is consolized, obviously the loadouts and no weapon pickups are entirely the fault of the consoles.

Yeah sure SP has the weapon wheel but there's a reason why the weapon wheel activates bullet time, which ohviously can't be done in MP.

TBH, a 2 weapon limit game with weapon pickups would be really interesting to watch as now you no longer have to fumble your hands through the 1-6 keys to get the gun that you want.

[Almonds]

of course it could be done without the slow motion effect no problem. What's more, it would actually make perfect sense that way, and it brought me to scratch my head in an attempt at understanding why they didn't think of it to begin with.

it's there in SP as a pace breaker/rebreather aid for the player to figure out what/where's he going to do/go next in the heat of battle, there's literally no reason or way for it to hinder a multiplayer match as long as they do away with the slowmo feature, besides, weapon switching speed is relatively quick enough to encourage it, not to mention 'flick-switching' is a thing, according to the devs themselves. It would make players more aware and value their lifetime instead of brainlessly opting for a two gun swap which gets eventually tiresome.

E:typo

[CreamCheese]

NoirSuede said:

Yeah sure SP has the weapon wheel but there's a reason why the weapon wheel activates bullet time, which ohviously can't be done in MP.

TBH, a 2 weapon limit game with weapon pickups would be really interesting to watch as now you no longer have to fumble your hands through the 1-6 keys to get the gun that you want.

Why not have 2 tiers of weapons, Standard and Special, and be able to carry 2 of each and have two buttons mapped?

[RaikohZX]

NoirSuede said:

TBH, a 2 weapon limit game with weapon pickups would be really interesting to watch as now you no longer have to fumble your hands through the 1-6 keys to get the gun that you want.

You know every Halo game but 4 did this, right?

[ABRACADABRA]

I'm not defending the game, but the player movement is not slow. it's almost exactly like in q3 and ut. just increase the fov and you will see it

[DooM_RO]

ABRACADABRA said:

I'm not defending the game, but the player movement is not slow. it's almost exactly like in q3 and ut. just increase the fov and you will see it

Yes, the DEFAULT speed is almost the same as the running speed of Quake 3. People call it slow because there is no Bunnyhopping and Rocket Jumping - which were never part of Doom to begin with.

[Lila Feuer]

They should of contacted Nerve to handle the MP, instead of Certain Affinity, who seem to have a track record of sucking.

[MrSkeltal]

NoirSuede said:

Yeah sure SP has the weapon wheel but there's a reason why the weapon wheel activates bullet time, which ohviously can't be done in MP.

Wolfenstein TNO on consoles and PC had a weapon wheel and it didn't have slow motion during it.

[Eternal0]

RikohZX said:

I love how everyone does this "it's the consoles fault because they can't handle multiple weapons" despite the weapon wheel in singleplayer and the fact that while the game is consolized, obviously the loadouts and no weapon pickups are entirely the fault of the consoles.

Have you taken a moment to look at Certain Affinity's track record with Halo and Call of Duty? It's not because it's a console shooter, they have more than enough to work with from what Id presented them. It's because they're used to a specific style of shooter and tried to awkwardly shoehorn in Id's new Doom on a familiar basis that happens to be similar to many popular console shooters. Incidentally, while Halo on Xbox created the two-weapon style for balancing, it kept weapons on the map; Call of Duty 1, which had no regenerating health, was what sorta popularized two weapons and no weapon pickups on the map (although you could take enemy weapons), and that game started the series on PC. Coincidentally on a variant of the same engine that powered Quake 3 (and still powers Call of Duty to this day).

The original Halo basically created the standard control layout for console first person shooters. The majority of FPS games on consoles since Halo have adopted Halo's control scheme or something closely resembling it within the context of the games designs. Before Halo there was a lot of fumbling with varied controller schemes to different quality.

As for weapon pickups, I didn't defend that as required. Many games have weapon pickups. Gears of War, Bioshock Infinite, Halo, CoD you can swap weapons, ect. The thing is that you are still generally limited to two weapons, or maybe three. Often the concession is to add an alternate fire to increase these weapons versatility without adding an additional weapon you need to switch to, though many times this alternate fire is merely a scope/iron sight. Another thing to consider is that these games require you press a button to pickup/swap weapons which means, generally, standing still for a moment. Some of them even play animations on weapon swaps. This slows the game down compared to just running over a weapon classic arena FPS style.

Regenerating health is not something required either via console designs, it merely was something that became popular from Halo. This is not a logical design direction for the game based off of the limitations of the controller. The weapon mechanics are.

A two weapon system makes weapon management a lot easier than having 5~8 weapons. Cycling through 8 weapons quickly when your controller only has 12 buttons (4 shoulder, 4 face, 4 directional pad, not counting start/select), is not easy if you want to include other mechanics. The alternate solution typically used is a wheel system where you hold down a button and use the directional stick to select a weapon, which allows 4~8 weapons. This however is not very good for a fast paced multiplayer shooter, that is why the /majority/ of games that utilize this add a slow down mechanic when using it if they are faster games, if they don't then the multiplayer tends to suffer.

A dedicated melee and/or grenade button is easier to manage on the fly than swapping to a melee weapon (fists/chainsaw), same with grenade button. However on the flip side generally speaking if the game has those buttons they need to be effective enough to warrant a button dedicated to it.

This is not a certain affinity issue, this is a general practice among the majority of console shooters since Halo became the gold standard for an FPS. They don't utilize 100% of the mechanics or layouts in every game (regenerating health/ect) but much of the way that controls and designs work typically are inspired by or build on the foundation set by Halo when it comes to FPS games targeting a console market.

This isn't an attack on consoles, this isn't saying the game is bad, this is simply stating why a design decision was made. I think that a loadout system will likely stay because they have put so much effort into it already. A 2 weapon limit will definitely stay due to limitations on the controller and them being unlikely to do a wheel system.

ABRACADABRA said:

I'm not defending the game, but the player movement is not slow. it's almost exactly like in q3 and ut. just increase the fov and you will see it

I didn't play a lot of UT, but I played a TON of Q2/Q3 and I played Doom beta with max FOV, the game is slower even just run speeds. However where it is mostly slower is how jumps work. I feel like I get a fair bit more air time in Doom than I ever did in Q2/Q3, even without a double jump.

What overall makes the game /feel/ slow is the lack of any sort of advanced movement options to speed it up beyond double jump, which actually slows you down in momentum. UT could be fast, Q3 could be fast. Doom 2 even had an advanced movement system and crazy fast run speed.

Take a look at the run speeds in UT2k4 even with a fairly average FOV, then top it off with the advanced movement options shown in this to quickly accelerate in any direction and the general fall speed. The UT walk speeds are similar but still seem a bit faster, the advanced movement options increase the speed tremendously:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXgSYPVZc9Q

Check out Q3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rce75JYlJd8

Again, you can see that run speeds (there are a number of times walking is used to make yourself quiet) it seems faster than Doom and, again, advanced movement increases the speed tremendously. Also fall speeds are faster and jump height are lower.

Compare them all to the Doom beta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWjqkfPsHyo

Q3 and UT2k4 are noticeably faster in run speeds and less floaty on jump speeds.

I don't expect this to be Doom Arena Tournament 2k16 I'm not asking for that, actually I want something different which is why I was interested in the double jump + clamoring. I'm merely trying to explain that the game is different in a way that is slower.

[NoirSuede]

MrSkeltal said:

Wolfenstein TNO on consoles and PC had a weapon wheel and it didn't have slow motion during it.

And it was really annoying because the weapon wheel filled the entire screen

[MrSkeltal]

NoirSuede said:

And it was really annoying because the weapon wheel filled the entire screen

I thought it was fine, especially since after a while you get used to the placement of the weapons in the wheel so it boils down to pressing a button, holding the stick in a direction and letting it go. Takes less than a second.

[Eternal0]

MrSkeltal said:

I thought it was fine, especially since after a while you get used to the placement of the weapons in the wheel so it boils down to pressing a button, holding the stick in a direction and letting it go. Takes less than a second.

The more inputs required the worse it is when it comes to a fast paced game. 1 button > 1 button + direction stick and slight delay from needing the wheel to come up, even if only a brief moment. Don't forget that pressing a button + directional stick input forces you to change the directional stick compared to your original aiming movement and causes a slight hiccup in it if you were to want to change for 1-2 combo. If you saw an opponent to your left and you wanted to switch to a weapon on the right side of the wheel you need to go right then left so momentarily you may turn to the right after the weapon switch which adds a slight delay. With one button you can be already lining up your shot as you switch weapons.

Maybe it's not a big deal, but it IS worse, even if only marginally.