What are your thoughts on the Snapmap stream?

[LittleBurger]

Edward850 said:

Actually this is more of a comparison with you competing against a child to build a dinosaur, and you're throwing a hissy fit because all you have is a lego set and not a full professional modeling kit.

And the child is winning.

If you were any good as a level designer, that lego set would not be a limitation to your artistic reaction of a dinosaur.

It would however limit any overly radical ideas you have that don't fit with the geometry of the prefab shapes (or shapes made by putting the smaller ones together), and no outside levels (unless they decide to add that as a new feature at some point).

Though it's sort of a given that there would be the limitations SnapMap has, given what it is.

I honestly liked messing around with the mapmaker in Timesplitters, so I'll likely have fun messing around with snapmap.

[Zemini]

Edward850 said:

You don't even know what these limits are, yet. It's the blind leading the blind off a cliff!

And no, they can't be lifted. The entire point is that all maps are shared on all platforms and network connections (so it's not even just a PC/Console hardware limit).

Well you can't really claim that I don't know what the limits are AND claim that they can't be lifted...Nobody really knows yet.

Besides you can't play cross platform so I don't see the point in having hard limits for PC players in the future. If this game is going to have any longevity, then it is a huge must. This can be in the form of more players (12) AND larger maps. I am guessing that limit is set to the lowest common denominator currently.

[LittleBurger]

Zemini said:

Well you can't really claim that I don't know what the limits are AND claim that they can't be lifted...Nobody really knows yet.

Besides you can't play cross platform so I don't see the point in having hard limits for PC players in the future. If this game is going to have any longevity, then it is a huge must. This can be in the form of more players (12) AND larger maps. I am guessing that limit is set to the lowest common denominator.

The gameplay may not be cross platform, but I think the sharing of maps is.

[Edward850]

Zemini said:

Well you can't really claim that I don't know what the limits are AND claim that they can't be lifted...Nobody really knows yet.

Yes I can. They outright stated that all snapmaps shared are available on all platforms, and I can make a very good educated guess as to why the network limits exist without being outright told, having worked with similar systems.
And while they haven't said anything about cross-platform play, they certainly could do it now if Sony ever hops onboard.

[Tuaam]

Jaxxoon R said:

Don't act like snapmap makes it impossible to mod for this game, if there really is such a demand for a thing, people will write their own tools. Like they had to for the original game.

Bear in mind that the original, when it came out, was considered Cutting - Edge. The new Doom game is that exact same idea, with new techniques like Texture Streaming and Mega - Textures. Mega textures take a long - ass time to render on a PC, so did making maps for the original Doom.

You guys have to understand that when Doom came out, there was no GZDoom, no Brutal Doom, no DoomBuilder - everything had to be done either by some level editor, or via a text program. The only reason why Doom has a very easy modding scene is because people were able to work hard, eventually they got the source code and here we are now. When the new Doom comes out, people will have to make their own programs - or make modifications for snapmap. Eventually people will be making maps on their computers (With custom programs), then uploading them to the snapmap directory, and then people will play them on their consoles. It's possible.

[CreamCheese]

Ideally they could release a modtool in the future that will allow people to create prefabs, models, etc. (new geometry) to be imported into snapmap.

[Zemini]

Edward850 said:

Yes I can. They outright stated that all snapmaps shared are available on all platforms, and I can make a very good educated guess as to why the network limits exist without being outright told, having worked with similar systems.
And while they haven't said anything about cross-platform play, they certainly could do it now if Sony ever hops onboard.

I still don't see how cross platform sharing has any relevance to map size for PC Players when they can't play together. Sony won't do shit because console controller versus mouse/keyboard is laughably one sided. I would truly feel bad for PS4 players if they were forced to compete with PC players. It would probably lead to an exodus. Xbox/PS4 would be more likely.

So you are assuming that the hard limits can never be broken because the engine just can't do it? That may be the case but it would be very short sighted. If it is because console players feel left out, then that is just selfishness on console players part.

CreamCheese said:

Ideally they could release a modtool in the future that will allow people to create prefabs, models, etc. (new geometry) to be imported into snapmap.

Been suggesting that for almost a year now.

[Jaxxoon R]

Zemini said:

I still don't see how cross platform sharing has any relevance to map size for PC Players

It's simple:
Snapmap = device agnostic.
PCs have no upper limit,
Consoles have defined hardware.

If map made on strong PC go on PS4,
PS4 go boom.

If PS4 go boom,
makes device agnosticism pointless.

[Edward850]

Zemini said:

I still don't see how cross platform sharing has any relevance to map size for PC Players when they can't play together.

It doesn't, it's the maps that are shared (and leaderboards). Any map you make on PC can be played on a PS4 or XONE, and vice versa, so actually details need to be capped off to the same performance margin. Likewise with the PC, you need to memory cap it otherwise you'll have maps unexpectedly exceed both tested QA conditions and exceed the minimum system specifications with no indication to the end user.
The network limitations are outside hardware control (and thus unrelated to PC/Consoles entirely) and must be adjusted to the most average denominator, which is Joe Average on a copper ADSL2 (and that's ADSL2, not ADSL2+).

[Ironhound]

MrInternational said:

My only problem with snap-map is the 4 player limit, but that goes without saying.

Basically this. That limit is going to be a killer for people wanting to create proper multiplayer experiences tailored in a retro fashion. You guys make loadouts, and demon runes optional and you practically scream 'make excellent multiplayer modes' and then you kill us with this awful 4 player limit.

It boggles the mind.

[rampancy]

BluePineapple72 said:

Yes because every single PC player ever has a $4200 PC that can perfectly run every single game ever at 7K 800Fps, so clearly there shouldn't be any limitations at all, like seriously there is no such thing as an underpowered PC, ever

its better if there is no limits... there will be better stuff created that way.

i dont see the benefit of guaranteeing every xbone owner that they can play every snapmap map.

all this really accomplishes is putting an expiration date on snap map.

[Xerge]

Ironhound said:

Basically this. That limit is going to be a killer for people wanting to create proper multiplayer experiences tailored in a retro fashion. You guys make loadouts, and demon runes optional and you practically scream 'make excellent multiplayer modes' and then you kill us with this awful 4 player limit.

The contrast is amazing here, we get a modernized MP from CA and on the other hand ID seems to have taken the old school feeling too seriously with that 4 player limit.

[Doom64guy6]

I loved it, I especially loved the classic red key card haha that was a nice touch.

I do hope they give us idstudio soon.

[Doom64guy6]

Edit: damn it double post

[AndyW]

Its not a Editor, its a shame... Just a Puzzle or toy :(
I hope they will pop up with a real-editor for pc users -if not:
Bye bye creativity, hello UDK.
I get the point that most users dont want to spend hundrets of hours in learning into a editor and stuff but meh... :( :(

[TheWizard]

AndyW said:

Its not a Editor, its a shame... Just a Puzzle or toy :(
I hope they will pop up with a real-editor for pc users -if not:
Bye bye creativity, hello UDK.
I get the point that most users dont want to spend hundrets of hours in learning into a editor and stuff but meh... :( :(

This mentality...sigh. UDK...lol

[AndyW]

I dont like UDK too, but at least i can do my own geometry with it. Sorry, but snapmap is not a editor for me -its like an smartphone app :(
Its like the difference between LEGO and PLAYMOBIL, and snapmap is clearly Playmobil in this case... But thats just my opinion. Anyway im going for this game cause of the SP&MP, not this gimmick.

[Edward850]

AndyW said:

I dont like UDK too, but at least i can do my own geometry with it.

Snapmap isn't a mesh editor, though. It's the Timesplitters map designer, ACS and Forge chucked into a blender. If you are disappointed that you can't make full blown map meshes with it, then you're very mistaken of the point of what Snapmap is.
You are complaining that a pizza is not a fast bicycle. They aren't even the same category.

[Archvile Hunter]

Snapmap is not for making beautiful environments, but for making fun and unique gameplay experiences.

[AndyW]

Edward850 said:

If you are disappointed that you can't make full blown map meshes with it, then you're very mistaken of the point of what Snapmap is.
You are complaining that a pizza is not a fast bicycle. They aren't even the same category.

Im not that disappointed, i like the chaining and some stuff that seem really easy to use. But the more i think about it i get the point, its a console-port. Console versions of doom never had a editor like DEU or Doombuilder too.
Its all about the money, if other people show up with badass-maps for free you wont get money for your own stuff...

And jeah i was wrong, i meant LEGO & DUPLO -not PLAYMOBILE! ;)

[Xerge]

You know, when people complain on being given a pizza instead of a fast bicycle I'd understand that they wanted a fast bicycle instead of a pizza, probably because they aren't hungry and are more concerned on getting somewhere fast, I mean isn't that the way we should understand these complains? At least this is how I understand these complains: some people don't want snapmap over a complete level editor, because they are more interested in being given the capabilities of a complete level editor instead of being given the capabilities of snapmap, that's cool, not everybody is interested in the same things.

[Edward850]

See you're missing the point again. What's more likely to be used and offers a vastly superior cost/benefit? A studio development tool that requires nothing short of the most high-end hardware and professional skills to operate, or a general use gamemode designer that runs off the same specifications as the rest of the game available for every platform?

I'll give you a hint: It won't be the one that could only be used and its creations deployed on one specific platform, and not even used or useable by 1% of that platform.

You can't complain about not receiving the bicycle when the question that was asked was "who wants dinner?".

[Chezza]

Snapmap looks promising. I can foresee many unique maps and gamemodes from creative people. What bothered me is how they ignored everyone's request/demand to play E1M2. There is no way none of the hosts didn't read all that spam.

I have an idea I'm hoping to introduce - if Snapmap will allow it. Slide, born from Counterstrike (not surf). The map constantly pushes you forward and you need to jump, duck, strafe and kill your way to the end. I wouldn't mind making another Slide map.

[Xerge]

Edward850 said:

What's more likely to be used and offers a vastly superior cost/benefit?

You mean which will sell more?

Edward850 said:

You can't complain when the question that was asked was "who wants dinner?".

They didn't really ask that, they just decided to include dinner with Doom.

[Edward850]

Xerge said:

You mean which will sell more?

No. Which one will cost them vastly less to make from the start and actually have a benefit from doing so. That's assuming that one even relates to the other. Lo and behold, they can and very likely were considered to entirely separate systems.

In fact they basically are. One's a mesh pro-tool, the other one is a gameplay designer. Yes, that is actually a different thing. No matter how you twist it, it's an apples/oranges comparison.

[AndyW]

"See you're missing the point again." What point?
I never said that i want a dinner or a bike...
But the name says it all -snapmap(drag%dropmap).
For console users it might be a great tool, but if you want go crazy in design this is not a tool that you want to use.
I just hoped there would be more functions to design your own enviroment, not just drag&drop PREMADE SECTORS together an fill it with premade stuff.
I love map-editors like GTKRadiant and thats why im a bit sad about the limited functions of snapmap, thats all.
If you like DUPLO go DUPLO, i prefer LEGO.
Not more not less.
Rage would have done great with editor-support, problem was the megatexturing and id-studio that needed half a server-farm to run and work on. :(

[Voros]

I'm sorry to ask this here, but can anyone upload these "streams" to YouTube? Or will Bethesda do it? Im missing out so much action

[tuo]

Voros said:

I'm sorry to ask this here, but can anyone upload these "streams" to YouTube? Or will Bethesda do it? Im missing out so much action

You can watch it on Twitch Past Broadcasts:

https://www.twitch.tv/bethesda/profile

[AndyW]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FEw6_Zb_ak

Sorry, too late with this small part. :/

[tuo]

BTW: what really boggles my mind: they have invested quite some millions into the SnapMap idea, and it looks like they REALLY tried to make it the best prefab-based editor it can be (and nobody even expected something like this, if they would have never announced SnapMap, noone would have been dissapointed).

Now they have this cool tool...and there is no mention of procedurely generated levels?

I mean, they even developed the AI conductor.

Imagine something similar to Bloodbornes Chalice Dungeons. Wanna play some Doom 2016? Have played the campaign couple times already, have checked out the latest SnapMap maps...just fire up some "Random Level". Pick a difficulty, pick an overall size, pick a setting, maybe a slider how many enemies should be in there, and let the CPU generate a random level for you. Could actually be cool if you just want to have a quick single player match against demons in a map you don't know inside out already.