What are your thoughts on the Snapmap stream?

[RaikohZX]

Wouldn't of minded a mix of blocks with something like Halo 5's Forge, so you could craft outdoor environments off of geometry carefully generated and reap the benefits of free object and setpiece rotation. At the very least a genuine recreation of old maps could potentially be plausible.

With the way the blocks and system are as is, unfortunately, E1M2 is already a bit of an almost 'in name only' disfunction from the map layout, and you'd probably not even be able to come close to recreating something like Q2DM1. Even Timesplitters could sort of theoretically do that thanks to its intentional open-air blocks and vertical capability.

[snapshot]

HellVain said:

It wouldnt make sense to have a map editor that doesnt include map assets from the campaign...they even stated that you can copy amd change the levels in the campaign..though i do need someone to confirm again on the stream.

They said that ? I thought they said you can only edit other SnapMaps .

[zzzornbringer]

Edward850 said:

Because that's blatantly easier said than done?

it would be more complicated, both from development and design point of view. it would be absolutely possible though.

but i guess they wanted to make it really easy, so that even 12 year olds can use the editor.

but yet again, they underestimate their players. i've started to use duke3d's build engine at the age of 14. i was able to build maps, use sector actions, edit sprites, even edit the game's con files where you could edit all actor attributes. i just hate it when developers assume their playerbase is stupid.

[DooM_RO]

zzzornbringer said:

it would be more complicated, both from development and design point of view. it would be absolutely possible though.

but i guess they wanted to make it really easy, so that even 12 year olds can use the editor.

but yet again, they underestimate their players. i've started to use duke3d's build engine at the age of 14. i was able to build maps, use sector actions, edit sprites, even edit the game's con files where you could edit all actor attributes. i just hate it when developers assume their playerbase is stupid.

You ARE stupid if you think modding for Duke 3D is the same as modding for a modern game. People just think that because they can make Doom 2 maps they can make masterpieces in Doom 2016, which is baffling. Most mappers wouldn't be able to make the jump from classic mapping to modern mapping, even the very good ones.

[Edward850]

zzzornbringer said:

it would be more complicated, both from development and design point of view. it would be absolutely possible though.

but i guess they wanted to make it really easy, so that even 12 year olds can use the editor.

but yet again, they underestimate their players. i've started to use duke3d's build engine at the age of 14. i was able to build maps, use sector actions, edit sprites, even edit the game's con files where you could edit all actor attributes. i just hate it when developers assume their playerbase is stupid.

You misunderstand. I'm not talking about user access at all, I'm talking about technical complications. Remember idtech still uses a BSP, structures must be compiled into a logical inclosed space, shadows must be baked (to some extent, it doesn't seem as drastic as it was in idtech5 at least) and virtual texture pages must be relevant to some kind of structure. You can't "just" make random surfaces and expect to be able to run the map from a simple instruction set without any sort of substantial compilation time.

[MultiLockOn]

Edward850 said:

You misunderstand. I'm not talking about user access at all, I'm talking about technical complications. Remember idtech still uses a BSP, structures must be compiled into a logical inclosed space, shadows must be baked (to some extent, it doesn't seem as drastic as it was in idtech5 at least) and virtual texture pages must be relevant to some kind of structure. You can't "just" make random surfaces and expect to be able to run the map from a simple instruction set without any sort of substantial compilation time.

You mean like forge mode in Halo?

[Edward850]

No? That's a completely different kind of editor (a prop editor) in a completely different engine.

[RaikohZX]

Edward850 said:

No? That's a completely different kind of editor (a prop editor) in a completely different engine.

It's not really a prop editor anymore. Halo 5's Forge is pretty extensive, to the point of (simplistic) scripting of its own. You can practically create buildings, set up outdoor geometry and other stuff with clever work. While its scripting isn't on-par in terms of sheer capability to Doom 4, most of the rest of the editor is basically far more capable than Snapmap.

[Edward850]

It's still a live prop editor, just a very complex prop editor. It doesn't construct map layouts in the slightest, and snapmap is blatantly has gamemodes more in mind than building arenas out of genric walls in an existing static map. You also don't know to what extent the prop editing is in Doom4, unless you've used it already? It also doesn't change anything about the engines being completely different!
Forget oranges, you are comparing apples to grapefruits.

[LittleBurger]

Edward850 said:

It's still a live prop editor, just a very complex prop editor. It doesn't construct map layouts in the slightest, and snapmap is blatantly has gamemodes more in mind than building arenas out of genric walls in an existing static map. You also don't know to what extent the prop editing is in Doom4, unless you've used it already? It also doesn't change anything about the engines being completely different!
Forget oranges, you are comparing apples to grapefruits.

What about pomelos, those are sort of like grapefruits?

I have to say if they could include the prop editing functionality of forge into snapmap, that would probably make it a little better (we don't really know what the functionality of snapmap props are but I sort of doubt as good as in forge).

[id.dav]

DooM_RO said:

Most mappers wouldn't be able to make the jump from classic mapping to modern mapping, even the very good ones.

Dead wrong! Radiant is very easy to use! They can still make thier "masterpieces" using brushes, patches and doom props.

[Edward850]

id.dav said:

Dead wrong! Radiant is very easy to use! They can still make thier masterpieces using brushes, patches and doom props.

You can't really state that as a fact without actually having something to back it up. Like stuff backed up with with scientific method of testing? Did you grab a bunch of prominent Doom mappers and give them Radiant, or is this some sort of 32in24-Radiant thread that I missed? When are you posting the results to these tests?

[RaikohZX]

LittleBurger said:

What about pomelos, those are sort of like grapefruits?

I have to say if they could include the prop editing functionality of forge into snapmap, that would probably make it a little better (we don't really know what the functionality of snapmap props are but I sort of doubt as good as in forge).

Judging by what we've seen, you can still place props freely and all, but the props look pretty limited for barrier walls, barrels, crates and such. Combine that with the limitations of the module blocks in Snapmap and it'll probably be more effort than it's worth to try to completely create custom areas out of props. But that's just hazarding a guess.

[id.dav]

Edward850 said:

You can't really state that as a fact without actually having something to back it up. Like stuff backed up with with scientific method of testing? Did you grab a bunch of prominent Doom mappers and give them Radiant? When are you posting the results to these tests?

What exactly could be a problem for a doom mapper to drag brashes in radiant? I'm pretty sure they can learn very fast.

[Edward850]

Why are you asking me that question? This is all your hypothesis. I expect that and more answered in your tests. Your results on my desk by monday the following week.

[Arctangent]

If you're assuming someone used to Doom-style map creation could move over to brushes in the blink of the eyes, you've clearly never even had a either a Doom map editor or a brush-based editor anywhere near your computer.