Freedoom as a game development resource/Collaboration with other projects

[MrFlibble]

I'm very fond of the idea that Freedoom's goal is not only to be a free game on the Doom engine, but also a resource for further game development beyond its original scope. However, I'm getting the impression that it's not being very actively used for this purpose.

Many of the projects outside the Doom community that happen to use various assets from Freedoom only seem to be doing this for placeholder purposes. Granted, before the recent improvement in the art department there was ample criticism directed at the quality of Freedoom's assets, particularly monster sprites, but this is not really the case anymore.

My main point here is that there are many community-created Doom modifications and TCs which, if they used Freedoom assets (either in original or modified form), would effectively turn into stand-alone games. For example, Supplice is intended to completely overhaul most of the graphics, with weapons, items, textures etc. all being replaced. When I asked Cage about the possibility of new monsters being added he replied that while being highly desirable, this is also a very time-consuming effort, and nothing certain can be said yet. I'm assuming that using Freedoom resources such as monsters could potentially benefit the project.

Another example, Back to Saturn X includes Doom II monster, weapon and HUD graphics because of the changed palette. It is my understanding that this issue is a bit sensitive and at least requires to make sure the end user owns the original game to run BTSX. Using Freedoom assets instead would help avoid these issues altogether, and possibly allow the game to reach a wider audience.

The question here is, do the developers here in the community have the motivation to use Freedoom in their work? There's an obvious appeal to the end user, as in this case the result is a fully free (or not), stand-alone game. However, is there enough appeal for the developers? I'm asking this because I think that a major collaboration project could possibly benefit both Freedoom and the community in general. It could also help overcome the "Freedoom is a reskin of Doom" stereotype, as many mod/TC projects are quite different from the original game.

[Jon]

MrFlibble said:

I'm very fond of the idea that Freedoom's goal is not only to be a free game on the Doom engine, but also a resource for further game development beyond its original scope. However, I'm getting the impression that it's not being very actively used for this purpose.

That was indeed one of our original goals, and you're right that it hasn't really proven to have worked out so well, asides from rent-seeking activities like the for-money iOS spin-offs.

MrFlibble said:

Another example, Back to Saturn X includes Doom II monster, weapon and HUD graphics because of the changed palette. It is my understanding that this issue is a bit sensitive and at least requires to make sure the end user owns the original game to run BTSX. Using Freedoom assets instead would help avoid these issues altogether, and possibly allow the game to reach a wider audience.

I suspect (but haven't checked) that you can probably play BTSX using the freedoom iwad, which is obviously not what the project intended.

MrFlibble said:

It could also help overcome the "Freedoom is a reskin of Doom" stereotype, as many mod/TC projects are quite different from the original game.

I'm not sure exactly why Freedoom assets haven't turned out to be more popular, but I'm not sure what can be done about that now. It's one of the reasons I think Freedoom would be better to focus on its other objectives, i.e. making a high-quality, fun standalone game, since that's where the value of the project remains.

I think efforts to make Freedoom vanilla compatible are working against that goal, personally.

[Angry Saint]

I really like also what Freedoom is today, at the level of graphics and sprites. For the level there is still a bit confusion about the format, and some maps are not of top quality, unluckily.

I played both Nova megawads using Freedoom, and its textures blend very well with Nova custom ones. It was like playing two new standalone games.

I’m creating a set of Vanilla Doom maps using some custom textures. I thought about the possibility of replacing sprites in order to create a TC or even a standalone game. What stopped me is, first, that I am yet at an early stage of level design, second that I fear that using Freedoom assets would be considered “lazy”, even if actually it is not because this is the purpose of the freedoom resources. Third, I’m not so into copyright, open source and attribution to understand if I can distribute and how what I created.

In addition, I don’t know of many other alternatives to Freedoom (ok, Blasphemer and Zauberer) so it seems to me that it is a take all resources or nothing, in case I want to go the standalone way. But in this case my mapset would just become something like a Freedoom mod. Maybe other resource, still “open” but not selected to enter the final Freedoom, or rejected, should be given more importance, so that people could choose what to use.

Regarding Freedoom textures, I think they are not used so much because too similar to original Doom ones. Yes, this is one of the aims of the projects, but probably adding new textures would help.

[Wereknight]

Jon said:

I'm not sure exactly why Freedoom assets haven't turned out to be more popular,

Because most of these assets looks... kinda bad for people. I heard enough of negatibe reviews about Freedom, especially about it's sprites.

[Jewellds]

I've seen Freedoom has taken many great strides in terms of art in the past few years. The efforts from new and existing contributors to replace the sprites and textures that are low quality or derivative have really helped to improve the game's look and make it unique.

So, Freedoom is looking better than ever as an art resource. But, in my opinion, it is first and foremost a game and it is crying out for better levels.

I was with Jon on the Vanilla thing, it felt like a backward step for the project. Ultimately I relented and spent a few evenings of my own time converting MAP10 to a vanilla format. I did this because I saw it as an opportunity to improve the maps, improving the good ones and completely replacing the bad ones.

Sadly, four months after Chungy's announcement and progress has slowed to a halt. People seem to be wondering whether vanilla was a good decision at all. In my opinion, someone needs to take leadership on maps and really push to improve them for the next release. Given how easy it is to find mappers in the doom community, I wonder if a "community project" style setup might work best.

[hex11]

I kinda like some of the old sprites and stuff. Probably will just end up making my own IWAD based on various resources, old and new.
Anyway, I know I'm in the minority, just as almost nobody else likes to run twm for X window manager today. But at least I have the option. I would be completely miserable if I had to use all those desktop environments and other such things (tried some, hated it the whole time).

Btw, if you're looking for vanilla maps, you can use my E1M3 in Undeath '94. It's basically done now, just needs a little more testing. I'll upload a new beta release tonight.

[andrewj]

Jewellds said:

Sadly, four months after Chungy's announcement and progress has slowed to a halt. People seem to be wondering whether vanilla was a good decision at all.

Yeah I have doubts about it too, having tried to vanllia-fy several maps and seeing that it can be very difficult to keep the integrity of a map and stay under the limits.

But whether the vanilla target is kept or not, most important thing needed is someone who can actively manage the set of maps and make the decisions on what to keep, what to fix and what to drop.

[raymoohawk]

jon the sprites are unpopular because most of them suck, including a lot of what i've done. the textures althoug mostly good arent popular because most of them dont offer anything that the original doom did not do better. freedoom being a resource in no way obstructs the goal of making it it's own standalone game, if anything it needs to have good resources to be a good game.

as for the maps i'm of the position that we should turn the current good maps into a megawad and restart the mapping from zero, but only when we finish the sprite set

[Jewellds]

andrewj said:

whether the vanilla target is kept or not, most important thing needed is someone who can actively manage the set of maps and make the decisions on what to keep, what to fix and what to drop.

I agree with this. I'm not that fussed about what happens to the vanilla target, a strongly led effort on mapping for any target would greatly benefit the project.

raymoohawk said:

we should turn the current good maps into a megawad and restart the mapping from zero, but only when we finish the sprite set

Raymoohawk, I have to disagree about mapping only when the sprites are finished. Freedoom has never been a quick project, and this would slow things unnecessarily. I see no reason why maps and sprites can't be worked on at the same time.

[raymoohawk]

tbh i said that because i think it is too much to expect mappers to comit to a project that lacks a complete set of assets. but if someone is willing to lead the mapping effort anyway than i agree that would be good

[AD_79]

raymoohawk said:

but if someone is willing to lead the mapping effort anyway than i agree that would be good

Trust me, if/when I have the time, I'd like to do this.

[Jayextee]

It's probably not entirely relevant, but when passing around an early test version of my game SLaVE, it needed an iwad to run so I included freedoom (2) with it.

Having said that, I do kinda like some of the BIGDOOR textures more than the stock ones.

[MrFlibble]

Angry Saint said:

What stopped me is, first, that I am yet at an early stage of level design, second that I fear that using Freedoom assets would be considered “lazy”, even if actually it is not because this is the purpose of the freedoom resources. Third, I’m not so into copyright, open source and attribution to understand if I can distribute and how what I created.

Thank you for your feedback on this! I guess the "lazy" argument as you put it might indeed be something that deters designers from going fully Freedoom. It has also occurred to me that it might be easier to use the mod/TC route for some authors because it allows not to bother with the free licensing and distributions restrictions as copyrighted material may be used in a TC under the fair use (?)) clause.

Jewellds said:

In my opinion, someone needs to take leadership on maps and really push to improve them for the next release. Given how easy it is to find mappers in the doom community, I wonder if a "community project" style setup might work best.

Perhaps someone may announce a call for maps or maybe even a mapping contest as I have previously suggested?

raymoohawk said:

tbh i said that because i think it is too much to expect mappers to comit to a project that lacks a complete set of assets. but if someone is willing to lead the mapping effort anyway than i agree that would be good

Well, the original Doom roster is nearly complete already. Coupled with the Aquatex textures, it probably could provide enough novelty to serve as an incentive for mappers.

Jayextee said:

Having said that, I do kinda like some of the BIGDOOR textures more than the stock ones.

Oh yes, there are some excellent textures there (with many created by fredrik) which are very Doom-like yet completely different from their original counterparts. Yet at the same time some contributions are uncomfortably similar to the source material, and probably need to be replaced.

hex11 said:

I kinda like some of the old sprites and stuff. Probably will just end up making my own IWAD based on various resources, old and new.

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one to still be fond of the old stuff :) Maybe old resources (v0.8) could be polished a bit and turned into a "retro" version of Freedoom?

[Ralphis]

In my view, the project doesn't need a mapping contest or community megawad project. As a matter of fact, the idea of doing either is representative of the larger problem that prevents Freedoom from being a successful GAME project. Freedoom has been treated simply as an asset and resource dump instead of a game.

Of course, this approach was Freedoom's bread and butter for over a decade. Community contribution and involvement is an important part of the project but, for many stretches, it has resulted in a lack of cohesion in the graphics, sound/music, and levels. Freedoom has had no clear vision and it desperately needs it - at least if it wants to be a successful game.

If I were supreme dictator and wanted to fix Freedoom while retaining some of the defining features of the project, here's how I would do it:

1) Form a team. Assemble a small team made up of the best regular contributors, as well as some of the other "minds" of the community. A talented sprite artist like raymoo, a primary texture artist, and a couple prolific mappers.

2) Create the vision. With this team, lay out a consistent vision for what Freedoom should look and feel like. What existing resources should be used and what should be thrown out?

Choose a consistent set of features that the mappers are going to use in their maps and the target engine(s). What mapping limits and target engines will result in a better game? Start fresh with maps, entirely.

The mappers should be working with the texture artist(s) when necessary. The sprite artist(s) should be getting feedback and seeing their characters in the game environments in-step. The team needs to be tight and focused, which is why it needs to be a smaller group.

Most importantly, set realistic goals and expectations.

3) Begin to carry out the vision. The team gets to work. Pretty simple.

4) Involve the community. After the guidelines and styles of the game have been established, create a wanted resource list for very specific portions of the project, in chunks, that the main artists feel that public contributors can pull off. This carries on the tradition of Freedoom and takes weight off the shoulders of the main artists because they can work on more intensive aspects of the project. Same with sounds/music, if necessary.

Have the main team members filter out content that does not meet the project's standards. Someone has to have the balls to say "no, this isn't good enough".

If a certain community individual is making consistently good to great contributions, personally involve them more with the team.

5) Finish it. A focused effort is going to make it easier to make realistic goals and hit them. Keep doing it until the project is "done". Other projects in this community have done it over the past 20 years - Freedoom should too.

It's perhaps a departure from Freedoom's traditional approach, but if I wanted to make a finished product, this is what I would do.

[an_mutt]

I've also been following Freedoom's mapping situation to some extent over the past few months, although I'm not up to speed on a lot of things. For instance, I have no idea which maps are in need of replacing so as to begin thinking about what kind of maps I'd want to make with the currently available resources.

[hex11]

I don't think it buys you anything to start over from scratch at this point. Already most of the resources are done, except some musics, and maybe some maps? Why not just wrap this up the way it's been going, to have complete IWAD replacements for Doom and Doom II, and call that a 1.0 release?
Then you can put together an elite team or whatever to do a new & improved 2.0 version, based on a solid "Freedoom Bible" design document or whatever.

[MrFlibble]

Everything Ralphis says is very reasonable, at least in theory. However, somehow attempts at bringing together a consistent vision have not been very successful. Maz Hades's Zamanthyte story concept seemed like a good idea to me, but it didn't pick up. In fact, any attempt to create as story to base the game upon has come to nothing.

Even without a story, a consistent art direction/style would help greatly to define the shape of the game. Freedoom strives to be different from Doom, with aliens replacing demons. In the past, I have suggested brainstorming the background of these aliens, with some lore/design concepts already having been created with raymoohawk's idea of how the large lizard (Knight replacement) and the Pestmeister (Baron) are related (sorry, can't find raymoohawk's posts on this ATM). However, this never picked up either, although it seemed like a good idea to discuss the lore behind monsters.

I also had the idea of drawing some inspiration from Marathon and possibly other games, which some people liked while others didn't, but eventually this resulted in nothing as well. The suggestion to change some default decorations to more sci-fi-ish was, again, met with a mixed response, and the idea of alien symbols seems to have been ignored altogether.

Don't get me wrong, I completely trust raymoohawk's artistic sense and talent. He has created excellent quality sprites that literally brought life to the game. Other contributors, including Sodaholic and Maz Hades, have also greatly improved Freedoom's assets. However, I cannot get off the feeling that there's a lack of global direction in the project, something that would bring together the efforts of artists, mappers, musicians into a single vision as Ralphis says.

This appears to be further exacerbated by a very worrying tendency when a contributor submits something and then it seemingly goes into limbo. For example:

• wesleyjohnson's updated spider boss, while apparently complete, has been neither added to the project nor is further being worked upon, as it seems
  
• Sodaholic's new pistol was first approved, then rejected, then updated (and significantly improved in the process) and finally approved by the project maintainers, but still not in the game for unclear reasons
  
• Sodaholic prepared an updated pack of liquid flats and waterfalls, but again, while all permissions to use the material have been granted by authors, the respective flats/ textures were not updated
  

All these assets are complete and approved, but haven't been added for months. I understand that the contributors and maintainers work on the project in their spare time, but surely adding assets that are clear for submission doesn't require that much time and effort?

[Angry Saint]

MrFlibble said:

Freedoom strives to be different from Doom, with aliens replacing demons. In the past, I have suggested brainstorming the background of these aliens, with some lore/design concepts already having been created with raymoohawk's idea of how the large lizard (Knight replacement) and the Pestmeister (Baron) are related (sorry, can't find raymoohawk's posts on this ATM). However, this never picked up either, although it seemed like a good idea to discuss the lore behind monsters.

I also had the idea of drawing some inspiration from Marathon and possibly other games, which some people liked while others didn't, but eventually this resulted in nothing as well. The suggestion to change some default decorations to more sci-fi-ish was, again, met with a mixed response, and the idea of alien symbols seems to have been ignored altogether.

Why not doing the opposite? That is, to base Freedoom on another existing background.

We should have an open source background universe with aliens, space travel and so on...

Here we have:

http://www.orionsarm.com/

Orion's Arm, 10000 years of sci-fi background. You can set any kind of story: cyberpunk, robot wars, post-human etc... in it.

They may be interested in having a videogame set in their universe.

EDIT: there are not many aliens, actually, but you can use mutants or provolves and so on...

[Jon]

raymoohawk said:

jon the sprites are unpopular because most of them suck, including a lot of what i've done. the textures althoug mostly good arent popular because most of them dont offer anything that the original doom did not do better.

I wasn't thinking of sprites so much when I said resources, but you're right for textures: there weren't many novel ones in the set since we focussed on compatible replacements, and there are plenty of other decent texture sets out there anyway.

raymoohawk said:

freedoom being a resource in no way obstructs the goal of making it it's own standalone game, if anything it needs to have good resources to be a good game.

It's a matter of what the focus of the project should be. If there's little value in FD as a resource collection (as history is bearing out), then it's effort wasted, and a distraction.

raymoohawk said:

as for the maps i'm of the position that we should turn the current good maps into a megawad and restart the mapping from zero, but only when we finish the sprite set

I think that's a good idea, but the necessary conditions IMHO should be more/different to completing the sprite set. I think we should have a concrete plot/story that we settle on, that informs a new name, that informs a new logo, that informs a new web design... then we work to that for levels, and ideally sprites too.

MrFlibble said:

Everything Ralphis says is very reasonable, at least in theory. However, somehow attempts at bringing together a consistent vision have not been very successful. Maz Hades's Zamanthyte story concept seemed like a good idea to me, but it didn't pick up. In fact, any attempt to create as story to base the game upon has come to nothing.

It comes down to leadership. Someone needs to bless a given story and move forward; without the blessing, submissions are pointless. I'm guilty of that as much as any other current or previous leader.

Honestly it doesn't need to be a magnum opus either; Doom's is about a paragraph, right? Aliens, some plausible setting in space/time (Moon for C1? 2100?) and off we go.

[raymoohawk]

but jon freedoom has not had value as a resource because it's resources suck. the new contibutors like me are trying to rectify that, and you haven't shown in what way that is a waste of effort or a distraction, we would still have to make the game assets to have a complete game anyway

[Jon]

raymoohawk said:

but jon freedoom has not had value as a resource because it's resources suck.

Well, maybe. Most of them did/do. But I'm not sure that's the only reason. I think it's because there isn't much demand. Most mods aren't bothered about having F/OSS resources, so modifications of ID monsters or imports from other games (realm6667 etc) basically address that need.

raymoohawk said:

you haven't shown in what way that is a waste of effort or a distraction, we would still have to make the game assets to have a complete game anyway

If you're saying that we would get great, re-usable assets as a by-product of focussing on making Freedoom a great game on its own, then that's great! It's just a gut feeling of mine that creating high-quality assets for Freedoom that are not part of an effort to make Freedoom a great standalone (and thus coherent) game could distract from that goal.

Say for the sake of argument you or someone else makes an awesome sprite that is clearly an Alien and we end up deciding that freedoom will be about demons. Or vice-versa. See what I mean? This has happened a few times with endlessly replacing weapons and suchlike already.

[raymoohawk]

the way i see it i am already making a coherent vision for the monsters in freedoom and chungy already set a clear goal for the project.

if someone takes up mapping leadership i can work in a new texture set with them

[Jon]

raymoohawk said:

the way i see it i am already making a coherent vision for the monsters in freedoom and chungy already set a clear goal for the project.

Your sprite work is great, but it's seemingly in complete isolation from any other work, which leads me to where I disagree with you here, with apologies to Chungy but I'm not sure the goal of the project is clear right now, or we wouldn't keep having these threads about it. And Chungy has been notably absent from any of these recent discussions. And a blessed Freedoom story/plot/theme is nowhere to be seen.

But, I'm going to step out here. Because there's no point me keeping on about it unless I'm prepared to step in and address it. And I gave that some serious thought last night; in many ways it would be nice to return to the fold and try to contribute to make Freedoom what I think it should be; but realistically I can't do that for various undisclosed personal reasons right now. So it's unfair for me to harp on from the sidelines if I'm not going to put my effort where my mouth is.

[agenten]

Hi, sorry if I'm not supposed to necrobump this, I have some responses to the original post, or more so just my perspective.

So anyway, I think Freedoom is amazing as a game development resource, and I think that most people's complaints if they wanted to use it as one *should* be that for them, it didn't completely fill out what they needed, or they couldn't use everything included in their game, because of fit for purpose/varying quality. It's understandable why someone wouldn't view it as a proper full construction kit (even though it totally is, when coupled with GZDB/Slade/etc., and a damn fine one at that, if you want to use Unity Asset Store as a modern comparison, I don't think you'd say the quality here is worse, I'd say it's just as varied).

Freedoom has pretty okay sprites, I REALLY love Raymoohawk's work, and there's stuff I'm seeing on the forum that I'm on the edge of my seat to see make it into the IWADs. I would give them good money to sprite a whole game if I had it, no question.

Freedoom has amazing textures. Some of them are too similar to doom. There are a LOT of textures. If they match your target resolution, they're incredibly useful. A 64x64 grass texture or 3-frame animated water is a godsend if it fits your project. In working with these I have found that the least helpful ones are very similar to DOOM, you have your DoomyDoors, your GigerDoors, I can't really use those. But that goes doubly for the sprites, so it's easier here. Many many of these textures can easily be used in ANY game, again, prov. they match target res etc. Honestly the more generic, the better in most cases.

Oh, so I've been using Freedoom resources for my game, it provides all the graphics thus far, save for a couple things from the awesome Blasphemer, which I haven't fully looked at yet. The textures will almost certainly remain in final release, though a lot of them will have their colours edited to fit in more with the project.
Similarly I've been recolouring sprites to fill out multiple enemy attack types, and some of these *could* remain in the final game, but some of them don't fit, etc., and I just wonder if I'd lose some form of "validity as a game" if the characters are seen in other games such as Doominator Wave Survival. The textures worry me less in this regard. It's something I've been thinking about quite a bit but overall it's a challenge to match another game's assets to your overall plot and setting, all that stuff.
I'm in the attic combing for stuff too, sometimes I find something old that fits my project better. Great archive!
All the projectile Sprites will likely appear in the final release, heavily recoloured.

I don't know if this fuels anyone's drive to have made such an amazing free resource for wannabe gamedevs such as myself, but I will say I'm very thankful the project has fulfilled this role for long enough for me to come around and need it. I see some talk of shifting the project's focus more towards *just* being a fun game to play, and that doesn't really worry me, since the assets and license will still be available. It's good that people are keeping this alive at all.

I haven't really wanted to say much about the project until it's a little more off the ground, but seeing this thread made feel like piping up and saying that yes, I am using a lot of this stuff as not just a placeholder. =)


EDIT: I'll add one thing, that one of the things that could possibly make someone hesitant to use the assets is the name of the project itself. In crediting or just referencing "Check out these sick Freedoom sprites I'm modifying!", I am having to name-drop an IP currently owned by Zenimax. I'd like to stay more under their radar than not seeing as the recent small drama with DoomRL and a lot of activity in the scene that may be drawing their attention more towards the modding community whether for ideas or to keep their bored lawyers in busywork. I considered running my entire project as a Heretic IWAD just so I could lay Blasphemer IWAD under it instead. Currently I'm using the FreeDM IWAD instead, for simplicity. I've also made my own custom 'practically-blank' IWAD that doesn't quite fully work yet, which in the end I'll use, and of course there will be some Freedoom credits in there somewhere regardless, but in terms of just this one issue, I wonder if a name like FreeDM Project or something like FreeFPS/FreeShooter would be more helpful. Obviously I want to give as much credit to this amazing work as possible but in general my strategy is to avoid invoking the word DOOM as often as possible.

[Voros]

Well technically, its Freedoom, not Free Doom. If Zenimax sues Freedoom for containg the word "Doom", it would make no sense. What about Marvel's Dr. Doom? Do they get sued too?

I believe Freedoom is safe from legal problems, well mostly safe but that's debatable.

[agenten]

Yes, I agree. But it's easy to retain a certain paranoia about these things.

Found this quote in the Zauberer thread that says it best:

Jaxxoon R said:

This is the same group of people that sued Notch for having the word "Scrolls" as his game title, after all.

I'm not saying to change the name. For my part I just want to gain as much verbal dissimilarity as I can. I feel the same way about using GZDoomGPL(an awesome fork), I had considered forking it just to change the name to something like "G-ZedEngine" or similar, but that would likely turn out to be redundant since I'm assuming I'm going to be fork-and-recompiling it to change the name of the EXE to whatever my game is called. There's not *too* much precedent for this sort of thing, and I don't want the project to look like a reskin of Doom to the point I worry if my Decorate code is even unique enough. That could just be me and all this may be out of the scope of the thread, so I won't say much more. =)

[MrFlibble]

agenten said:

For my part I just want to gain as much verbal dissimilarity as I can.

What about the spelling with the infinity symbol (Freed∞m)? Would this help you? It's been sorta adopted with the new in-game logo already, just not very handy to type in forum conversations I suppose.

[agenten]

Mr. Flibble, I actually kinda love the new infinity logo because of the symbol itself. I'd have to pull my Character Map up to type it out in the credits, but yeah I do like it, if you're serious. It might not be helpful for you guys, assuming you want to be easy to google. Like I said that sort of thing I don't find to be crucial for my own use cause I can work around it as a precaution, but it certainly might be helpful to others as well as me, and it's something I think about a quite often--complications arising from the original IP despite measures taken. Well, thanks for even suggesting it. I know I kinda just stepped in through the front door here.
I suppose another (possible) option might be to modify the license to allow mutliple options for crediting, like, if I use the FreeDM wad and could credit "FreeDM" (and BLasphemer) instead of "The Freedoom Project"? Stop me if that sounds rude or stupid, I don't want to seem like I'm trashing the branding, it would be with a heavy heart that I even change the name of the source port for branding consistency and IP conflicts... cause I love Doom so much. Shame that such a lawyer-happy publisher resides over the IP nowdays. Sega's out there giving ROMhackers a job making the next sonic game... anyway, don't mind me. I'm pretty good at having way too many opinions. =)

[Voros]

I don't think Freedoom will run into legal problems anytime soon (unless Zenimax get paranoid about a project by the Doom community), as it's not Doom. It's Freedoom, one word. Although it could be changed to Freedom (with the infinity symbol acting as a tribute to Doom) as the official name, if fraggle/chungy plan to do so someday.

I don't even think Zenimax knows or cares about Freedoom. Wasn't Jupiter Hell being advertised via DoomRL? That might have caused Zenimax to take legal action. Freedoom doesn't use anything from Classic Doom, so I don't see why they would sue Freedoom, other than the fricking name. Law makes my head hurt.

MrFlibble said:

It's been sorta adopted with the new in-game logo already

I think it's worth mentioning that the official website uses this logo too.

[agenten]

In my opinion if Zenimax has a lawyer and owns the DOOM IP it knows about Freedoom, and probably any other mod that isn't completely low-profile. I also don't depend of them to be predictable, or to act in line with their own expectations. Lawsuits aside, we've seen Brutal Doom praised and then they kinda took the best ideas and put them into D4. And then we've seen a New Vegas mod basically ported to FO4 with some changes. The modmaker in this case doesn't mind, but i think it's kinda messed up.
The message here is, "you can have all the fun you want writing content for our game engine for free, but you can't sell it, but if it's good enough, WE can sell it.
On that note I would think that if there were any new complaints from Zeni it would likely be about Brutal Doom since like, HoESP runs without a Doom wad and ships w/ copped Doom sprites/graphics. But BD is too high profile and Zeni would just get DDOSed constantly by angry children. So the 'logical' thing to do is just draw mods out of a hat, and sue whoever we pull out of the hat if their mod's not good enough for our next game.

I'm making a commercial product (don't hang me, it's in the license) using Freedoom and GPL'd IDtech1 technology. I'm being very careful about the licenses yet still I do not feel safe from their eye.
I think Freedoom itself is safe. It's also not a commercial product. It does *replace* doom but I think if anyone is targeted it will likely be someone with a commercial product trying to make a name for themselves. I guess they've sent a pretty clear message--"you can't use our game to plug your other game."
I have a feeling this was all to make an example after Romero dropped 2 doom maps to promote Blacklight, since they couldnt *honestly* drag Romero through the dirt in public. Again, I'm outside their IP. But that doesn't guarantee there won't be complications. It is merely supposed to.

I keep trying to stop myself from sounding paranoid. If anything, getting a C&D from Zenimax probly only pushed DoomRL/JupiterHell more prominently into the public eye, ensuring they'd meet their kickstarter goal.
I'd never hope for the same luck.

When I first started this project I figured I'd make a legit DOOM mod for practice.
That project has completely been abandoned in light of DRL because I now don't want an IP'd mod preceding the game's release if it has any of the same ideas as the mod, even if said ideas are my own additions.

IMO Zeni could easily C&D Freedoom's name because while the word may be generic the games in similarity are very close and they're running on the same-ish technology. It's not like putting out a game called "Towers of Doom" which is a tower defense game running in unity.
I don't doubt that you guys could fight that if it ever happened but I'd predict that you'd be more likely to just change the name to something else instead because it wouldn't be worth the trouble.

This is just my perspective, that the name is mostly fine for a free game but it may be cause for concern to some people using it for development. It's not going to keep me from using it... unless a new and similar IWAD replacement project called TotallyNotDoom hits the market. XD

I thank anyone who even read this all the way through.