Biggest problem with the game...

[hardcore_gamer]

Is that it plays too much like Painkiller. That is, the game locks you in an arena over and over and then let's you go afterward. It's easily the single worst thing about the SP and one of the reasons I got bored before the campaign was actually over.
One of the things that I liked about the original Dooms was the creative level design and encounters. Sure there were some moments where the game would throw lots of enemies at you but it almost never locked you place and enemy encounters were more unpredictable. Here I almost feel like I am playing a hybrid of Doom and Painkiller. Not saying the game isn't good. I still enjoyed playing it, but I still hate it how arena based it is. It means that every single level plays pretty much exactly the same but with more challenging waves as the game goes on. I legit am not sure if I will bother replaying this game. It just gets old too fast, much more so than the originals.

[Shaviro]

This is pretty much my biggest issue with the game as well. Especially the second half.

[Obsidian]

Sooo the campaign isn't too long then?

[Koko Ricky]

I made a thread about this very thing and was assured that it's only about half arenas with plenty of exploration...

[hardcore_gamer]

GoatLord said:

I made a thread about this very thing and was assured that it's only about half arenas with plenty of exploration...

The game does have open ended levels. That is actually true. But at least combat wise, the gameplay is very similar:

1. Enter area.
2. Lockdown.
3. Fight waves.
4. Move on.
5. Repeat.

[codeslicer]

16 hours.

[Arctangent]

To its credit, the majority of the combat being arena-based does work to its attempted high-action in horrific environments dealio, instead of falling into action horror. Quite a few of the Hell levels would be absolutely terrifying if you there were just spectres roaming around the place, and while that is quite a missed opportunity, I'm pretty glad for it because the atmosphere of some of them alone unsettled me something awful.

What can I say? I'm a weenie. It would definitely freak me out to suddenly be attacked in one of those places with no indication that I was in a combat area.

[Wereknight]

hardcore_gamer said:

Is that it plays too much like Painkiller. That is, the game locks you in an arena over and over and then let's you go afterward. It's easily the single worst thing about the SP and one of the reasons I got bored before the campaign was actually over.

Well, over 99% of FPS games have this issue. So what? We should keep cry because of that? Come on... Don't be like wet kittens.

[ClumsyCryptid]

codeslicer said:

16 hours.

16 hours? I devoured the campaign on Nightmare in 9.

hardcore_gamer said:

Is that it plays too much like Painkiller.

I'm going to be the person that disagrees with you as I love the game because it has the Painkiller flow, but with less enemies in annoying to get to places.

[DoomUK]

hardcore_gamer said:

1. Enter area.
2. Lockdown.
3. Fight waves.
4. Move on.
5. Repeat.

You say it like this happens literally every time demons appear on the screen. Did you somehow skip past all the random firefights?

[kuchitsu]

Sounds a lot like modern "hard" wads.

[BluePineapple72]

I don't have a problem with the idea of a lockdown, but they seem like they happen too often, especially on UAC levels

I think the only reason they are there are so casuals can't just run away when they're scared

[Amph]

it was done on purpose to prevent you to rush to the final point, i actually like it, i hate speedrunner that just rush and forget everything, like demon don't even exist

also the continue random spawn of the monester make their attack unpredictable which is one of the best thing of the game imho, so no i like the arena in this doom, but it would have been better with more traps, that's it

[HXCpr0n]

BluePineapple72 said:

I don't have a problem with the idea of a lockdown, but they seem like they happen too often, especially on UAC levels

I think the only reason they are there are so casuals can't just run away when they're scared

Yeah, exactly. I don't mind it either. Even the original Dooms had some share of pseudo"lockdown" arenas, usually escapable only by some hidden switch in the room that you likely won't find anyways until the fight is over. I'd go so far as to say that it's uncommon to find any sort of shoot em up game that doesn't have them whatsoever.

It just happens too much in Doom 4 and it begins to chip away the flow. Just decreasing the obvious arena frequency would have been good enough and maybe instead of tons of big fights, break the fights up into smaller ones that begin to eat away at your health and force you to explore for more goodies

[DoomUK]

I suppose the arenas become a little more frequent in the last few levels, but all told it's a very well-paced game where nothing ever gets stale. This is coming from a guy who LOATHES the Painkiller games.

[Koko Ricky]

kuchitsu said:

Sounds a lot like modern "hard" wads.

I've been playing through Valiant, a very recent release, and noticed it's basically the same thing. You start off in a large and varied environment, but it's closed off until you figure out what to do next, at which point another wave of enemies comes at you. The classic Dooms are actually similar to this in that color-coded doors essentially lock you out of an area until you find the key and move on.

The difference is that the puzzle aspect in both classic Doom and many of the user-made mods consists of using visual cues to progress, be it a shootable wall, a switch, a slightly hidden door or passage way, understanding which pathway leads to a necessary key, backtracking to a now accessible area, etc. In Doom '16 it seems a lot of the "puzzles" are little more than clearing an arena, then exploring it in order to figure where to go next. Seems a touch shallow.

[Progeny Omega]

I love the arena battles in and of themselves but I do think that as a game mechanic they don't make a lot of sense in the hell levels. In the UAC levels they at least lampshade it with the lockdowns but in hell they should either constantly spawn new demons or allow all areas to be accessible (aside from those locked with skull keys) and have demons follow you everywhere.

[Arclite]

Well to elaborate on the "Too many Arenas" problem, it's not just that the encounters eventually wound up feeling repetitive and copy-pasted, but by using this concept they closed the door on so many potential combat elements, the ones that made the originals so good.

In the originals, there were many times that the biggest fights took place in a crowded corridor, or a super dark claustrophobic room full of traps. And most of all, your ability to backtrack/flee through the level could create more interesting encounters. Pinkies/Barons spawn in an arena? You could flee to a tight corridor and line them up for a massacre. (And referencing Barrels O' Fun) Run into a bunch of Pain Elementals in a barrel-covered hallway? You could flee down off the platform and fight them in the open, or camp in the doorway (which could be very risky).
See what I mean? Despite the predictable AI, the way in which combat would differ based on your positioning and approach to encounters would make playthroughs always feel slightly different each time.

Id Software likely suffered from a misguided design choice that many developers do: Restricting players out of fear they will break convention. NO! Don't do that. If the players want to ruin it for themselves and speed-run or retreat to the beginning and camp, let them, while the rest of us fight like real men! As long as the monsters are smart enough to pursue you and flank you, there should be nothing wrong with granting the player mobile freedom through most levels, because it worked in the originals, did it not?
Obviously though, as the game is right now, many monsters would just get stuck/get bugged if they tried to follow you through a lot of the areas. But that's why the levels should have been designed in such a way that these issues wouldn't occur.
All I'm saying is they could have made it work, and I'm disappointed that they didn't.

[LittleBurger]

I have to agree on the little to much use of arenas, though some are better made and a little less noticeable (seems like it varies). If an expansion(s) is made for sp I would like it to stray away from throwing them around to much.

[AndyW]

I just tested the campaing and what i saw was ..hmm. ATM im fully into the MP-Mode and will save the campaign for some boring-evenings :D

[gamul312]

To keep framerates and resolutions high you can't have too many monsters in one place, so you have to restrict them to rooms so not too many crowd up.

[TheGamePhilosophe]

Arclite said:

Well to elaborate on the "Too many Arenas" problem, it's not just that the encounters eventually wound up feeling repetitive and copy-pasted, but by using this concept they closed the door on so many potential combat elements, the ones that made the originals so good.

In the originals, there were many times that the biggest fights took place in a crowded corridor, or a super dark claustrophobic room full of traps. And most of all, your ability to backtrack/flee through the level could create more interesting encounters. Pinkies/Barons spawn in an arena? You could flee to a tight corridor and line them up for a massacre. (And referencing Barrels O' Fun) Run into a bunch of Pain Elementals in a barrel-covered hallway? You could flee down off the platform and fight them in the open, or camp in the doorway (which could be very risky).
See what I mean? Despite the predictable AI, the way in which combat would differ based on your positioning and approach to encounters would make playthroughs always feel slightly different each time.

Id Software likely suffered from a misguided design choice that many developers do: Restricting players out of fear they will break convention. NO! Don't do that. If the players want to ruin it for themselves and speed-run or retreat to the beginning and camp, let them, while the rest of us fight like real men! As long as the monsters are smart enough to pursue you and flank you, there should be nothing wrong with granting the player mobile freedom through most levels, because it worked in the originals, did it not?
Obviously though, as the game is right now, many monsters would just get stuck/get bugged if they tried to follow you through a lot of the areas. But that's why the levels should have been designed in such a way that these issues wouldn't occur.
All I'm saying is they could have made it work, and I'm disappointed that they didn't.

Captures a lot of my feelings about the game. Nice post!

[Almonds]

TheGamePhilosophe said:

Nice post!

Fucking gold right here.

[Reisal]

Lack of extended mapping and modding support. Without it, this game will be dead within 6-9 months.

[PureSlime]

Really, I wasn't bothered by the wave fighting. I was really only bothered by doors sometimes locking behind you near the end of levels so you couldn't go back and explore.

There's no reason for that at all. Maybe a leftover design from more corridor type FPS games where backtracking is discouraged by design.

And yeah, unless they fix that multiplayer (and really, it IS a quick and easy fix), most of everyone will jump ship on its longevity. A killer singleplayer campaign doesn't necessarily make a game live on.

[Chubzdoomer]

DoomUK said:

I suppose the arenas become a little more frequent in the last few levels, but all told it's a very well-paced game where nothing ever gets stale. This is coming from a guy who LOATHES the Painkiller games.

My thoughts in a nutshell. I never did care much for Painkiller, but I loved this game.

[Angry Saint]

Arclite said:

Id Software likely suffered from a misguided design choice that many developers do: Restricting players out of fear they will break convention. NO! Don't do that. If the players want to ruin it for themselves and speed-run or retreat to the beginning and camp, let them, while the rest of us fight like real men! As long as the monsters are smart enough to pursue you and flank you, there should be nothing wrong with granting the player mobile freedom through most levels, because it worked in the originals, did it not?
Obviously though, as the game is right now, many monsters would just get stuck/get bugged if they tried to follow you through a lot of the areas. But that's why the levels should have been designed in such a way that these issues wouldn't occur.
All I'm saying is they could have made it work, and I'm disappointed that they didn't.

This should be a good lesson also for many modern wad makers.

[Technician]

Preliatus said:

16 hours? I devoured the campaign on Nightmare in 9.

I'm going to be the person that disagrees with you as I love the game because it has the Painkiller flow, but with less enemies in annoying to get to places.

Painkiller and flow are two contradictory words.

[kerrang]

Arclite said:

Well to elaborate on the "Too many Arenas" problem, it's not just that the encounters eventually wound up feeling repetitive and copy-pasted, but by using this concept they closed the door on so many potential combat elements, the ones that made the originals so good.

In the originals, there were many times that the biggest fights took place in a crowded corridor, or a super dark claustrophobic room full of traps. And most of all, your ability to backtrack/flee through the level could create more interesting encounters. Pinkies/Barons spawn in an arena? You could flee to a tight corridor and line them up for a massacre. (And referencing Barrels O' Fun) Run into a bunch of Pain Elementals in a barrel-covered hallway? You could flee down off the platform and fight them in the open, or camp in the doorway (which could be very risky).
See what I mean? Despite the predictable AI, the way in which combat would differ based on your positioning and approach to encounters would make playthroughs always feel slightly different each time.

Id Software likely suffered from a misguided design choice that many developers do: Restricting players out of fear they will break convention. NO! Don't do that. If the players want to ruin it for themselves and speed-run or retreat to the beginning and camp, let them, while the rest of us fight like real men! As long as the monsters are smart enough to pursue you and flank you, there should be nothing wrong with granting the player mobile freedom through most levels, because it worked in the originals, did it not?
Obviously though, as the game is right now, many monsters would just get stuck/get bugged if they tried to follow you through a lot of the areas. But that's why the levels should have been designed in such a way that these issues wouldn't occur.
All I'm saying is they could have made it work, and I'm disappointed that they didn't.

+1

[40oz]

GoatLord said:

The difference is that the puzzle aspect in both classic Doom and many of the user-made mods consists of using visual cues to progress, be it a shootable wall, a switch, a slightly hidden door or passage way, understanding which pathway leads to a necessary key, backtracking to a now accessible area, etc. In Doom '16 it seems a lot of the "puzzles" are little more than clearing an arena, then exploring it in order to figure where to go next. Seems a touch shallow.

There is so much visual noise in the levels already that it would take me forever to figure out where to go.

Doom mappers are blessed in the sense that door textures are doors and support textures and platform textures are lifts. The switch textures are flat panels with big red and green lights with a handle next to them. Everything else is walls. There's so much attention to detail to everything, especially otherwise inanimate stuff. It makes for better screenshots, I'm sure but its misleading in gameplay.