Let's improve barons.

[Impie]

The niche use argument is a good point though. Barons were used best in the original Doom, and I think even the later commercial wads sorta lost sight of that. I can't remember where barons were used effectively past Doom 1.

[Li'l devil]

Why people hate barons so much? Why nobody hates hell knights? They're pathetic, imo, 3 ssg shots to kill.. pfff.. are they made of cardboard? Barons on other hand take a while to kill and in close quarters are a real danger. And even then i'd probably buff their health up a little bit more..
I actually think that most monsters in Doom 2 (except barons and a few others) have too low health and are glass cannons.. Remember monsters in Heretic? Well, those were ok - it tooks a while to kill pretty much any monster there, not just with a few shots..

[Marcaek]

Impie said:

The niche use argument is a good point though. Barons were used best in the original Doom, and I think even the later commercial wads sorta lost sight of that. I can't remember where barons were used effectively past Doom 1.

Barons were used effectively in Ultimate Doom, I can't think of any good ones elsewhere in the first game.

Just big lumbering ammo sponges which pose no threat 90% of the time people use them :/

Why people hate barons so much? Why nobody hates hell knights? They're pathetic, imo, 3 ssg shots to kill.. pfff.. are they made of cardboard? Barons on other hand take a while to kill and in close quarters are a real danger. And even then i'd probably buff their health up a little bit more..
I actually think that most monsters in Doom 2 (except barons and a few others) have too low health and are glass cannons.. Remember monsters in Heretic? Well, those were ok - it tooks a while to kill pretty much any monster there, not just with a few shots..

I think this misses the point that most people hate Barons because they take too long to kill for what little threat they pose. At least with badly placed hellknights they die in half the time.

Heretic's bestiary and weapons are limp and awful.

[Li'l devil]

Marcaek said:

I think this misses the point that most people hate Barons because they take too long to kill for what little threat they pose. At least with badly placed hellknights they die in half the time.

Low threat? In very tight rooms barons are really dangerous - they're like advancing wall of doom, constantly moving towards you, trying to trap you in corner. And if it traps you, then it will deal massive damage with melee attacks. And the plasma balls it fires deal pretty heavy damage, too and are quite fast.
The main flaw is, indeed, the monster placement, and barons indeed are not used properly most of the time, but that's not the monster's problem..

Marcaek said:

Heretic's bestiary and weapons are limp and awful.

Nah.

[Salt-Man Z]

scifista42 said:

http://i.imgur.com/oxjrd17.png

This (besides being awesome) reminds me of the doors in Final Fantasy II that would sometimes attack you when you tried to go through them. Which gets me to thinking... would it be possible (through DEH trickery or sumthin') to make a door that, upon being activated, turns into one of the pictured beasties?

[Arctangent]

Doors are level geometry, not actors.

Monsters are actors, not level geometry.

So it pretty much goes without saying that you can't turn a door into a monster, as they're two entirely different things.

However, with a thick enough door you could hide one of those inside of it, then have the door instantly lower or raise to "disappear," leaving the monster standing there.

[Jimmy]

Barons of Heresy. -- Using Vader's sprite edit from Doom 2: The Rebirth, this WAD tampers only with the monster's appearance and attacks. They will hurl either a single baron ball, or three in a scattered volley, or execute a mancubus-style two-at-a-time sequence of shots in three concurrent volleys. I also ensured they had a melee attack, as the R667 Lord of Heresy appears not to have one.

Sorry, no humor joeks in this one.

[Gez]

You know who were the first to postulate the baron was really a door with health? Digital Café. The "Flembrane" is pretty much just that in its very concept.

[Impie]

Marcaek said:

Heretic's bestiary and weapons are limp and awful.

I'd say mostly the weapons, really. They make it tedious to kill even the weakest monsters most of the time.

Regardless, I'll stand by the argument that barons are a niche monster, which is probably their downfall. There might just be no place for them outside of the original Doom. It's funny how in Doom they're such iconic beasties, but anywhere else they're just a nuisance.

[Gez]

Heretic's weapons being kinda weak on their own is presumably because that makes it more of an incentive to use the Tome of Power when available.

[Impie]

Gez said:

Heretic's weapons being kinda weak on their own is presumably because that makes it more of an incentive to use the Tome of Power when available.

There is that, but they're still kind of tedious to use otherwise. Even gargoyles don't usually go down in a single hit unless you're lucky. Even if they made it so monsters often go down in one well-placed hit, there'd still be incentive to use the tome of power because it's fun and more powerful.

Marcaek said:

Barons were used effectively in Ultimate Doom, I can't think of any good ones elsewhere in the first game.

I really hate the ones in Pandemonium for all the right reasons, because by that point you're still stuck with low-tier guns, you're running through lots of narrow corridors, and it's too easy to round a corner and run into those bastards.

e1m8 coulda been better in general, really, but its memorable at least.

[Varis Alpha]

i think the thing about Heretic's arsenal is that it's not just the guns you have to use, but your inventory items as well. moprh ovums, time bombs, tomes of power, invincibility rings and flight... all of which gives you distinct advantages against the enemy in different ways.

i do agree that the weapons themselves are pretty wimpy feeling though. it mostly stems from the fact they don't have very satisfying animation or sound-design. Heretic as a whole has really terrible sound-design that makes everything lack impact.

[Fonze]

I always felt like the weapons of Heretic were more powerful, especially when comparing pistol to wand, shotty to crossbow, cg to dragon claw. Never mind the kickback from the Phoenix rod. Only weapon I was never a big fan of was the mace.

[kuchitsu]

I think in Heretic the shooting sounds just aren't juicy enough. There is no BOOM CHK CHK.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

Somebody ought to port Doom weapons and items to Heretic. I know Samsara sort of did, but it is not a 100% faithful port.

Anyway, I now feel like checking The Rebirth out. Thanks Jimmy!

[Gifty]

I was working on a smooth, Pk-style version of the Heretic arsenal, thinking maybe it would make the weapons a little more fun to use. I got about half of it done, should finish it some day.