Two things source ports should do differently with gamepads

[Blastfrog]

Older PC gamepads and joysticks tended to use square areas of input, but these days they conform to the console standard of a (roughly) circular input area. This means you can't access the full range, and thus cannot straferun, or if you have it set up old-school, you can't turn and run at full speed simultaneously.

I suggest using this formula, and then capping the resulting X/Y variables to 1.0 or -1.0.

The second thing that should be addressed is aim acceleration. There should be simple console style acceleration that takes the same amount of time to reach full speed as the slow-turn lasts for keyboarding (6 tics). It's subtle but it will make aiming easier.

Obviously, both of these should be entirely optional. There should be some kind of way to set up exactly which axis is the x and y of a single stick when the circle mapping is in use.

[Blastfrog]

I get that controllers aren't the most popular method of input around here, but the silence is somewhat bothersome. :/

[Graf Zahl]

Sodaholic said:

I get that controllers aren't the most popular method of input around here

That is correct. As such I am not qualified to comment.

[Maes]

Sodaholic said:

I get that controllers aren't the most popular method of input around here, but the silence is somewhat bothersome. :/

Well, as playing with a controller when you have better input methods available would be akin to handicapping yourself, no wonder there's practically no interest in them.

Actually, I think I can explain very simply why gamepads don't "fly": too many fine control focus points (FCFP). E.g. when you play with WASD + mouse, you actually only have 2 FCFP: the WASD keys (or their equivalent) and the mouse. Your hands are firmly anchored to those FCFPs, you don't need to take them off to perform most actions, and they isolate specific actions: e.g. your left hand only takes care of "throttle" and "aileron" (strafing), while your right hand takes care of "rudder" (turning) and "pitch" (view/aim), plus fire and actions without moving your hand. In addition, a major ergonomic advantage is that you don't need your right hand's fingers for anything else, and you can have one finger dedicated to each action).

But with a gamepad, there are at least 3 FCFP: the D-pad itself on the left (which however is often mapped in a "throttle + rudder" configuration), the keys on the right (for which you cannot dedicate a single finger in the same way you do with a mouse), plus (with an analog gamepad) a separate analog stick for view pitch.

Depending on how you map strafing and turning actions, a 4th FCFP may exist as well (the shoulder buttons), which have the major disadvantage of requiring fingers from two different hands. This doesn't happen in any other control configuration scheme.

TL; DR: with a gamepad you need to focus on 3 or 4 important control areas (at least if you want full control), or otherwise accept playing with simplified controls.

[ReFracture]

I'm sure part of the silence is also that most people just use an xinput device like a 360 or xbox one controller, and at least with ZDoom based engines the support is excellent, apart from needing to use the console to make some specific binds I like.

[TheNerdTurtle2]

Maes said:

But with a gamepad, there are at least 3 FCFP: the D-pad itself on the left (which however is often mapped in a "throttle + rudder" configuration), the keys on the right (for which you cannot dedicate a single finger in the same way you do with a mouse), plus (with an analog gamepad) a separate analog stick for view pitch.

Depending on how you map strafing and turning actions, a 4th FCFP may exist as well (the shoulder buttons), which have the major disadvantage of requiring fingers from two different hands. This doesn't happen in any other control configuration scheme.

I'm a keyboard and mouse enthusiast but wouldn't claw grip get rid of this issue?

[Maes]

TheNerdTurtle2 said:

I'm a keyboard and mouse enthusiast but wouldn't claw grip get rid of this issue?

And just how well and for how long can one play like this? Even if you specifically train to get as good as you can get with this control technique, you'd be destroyed even by a mediocre mouse + WASD player,be it in a DM or a COMPET-N demo. Even for casual play it simply wouldn't allow for the same stamina.

[TheNerdTurtle2]

I disagree, tons of people play with claw grip. My friend and I play Super Smash Brothers Melee all the time and he always claw grips. That's at least two hours of straight claw gripping and he doesn't get tired

[ReFracture]

Claw was the only way I could stand to play Halo 2.

[Blastfrog]

Ew, clawgrip. Not that hard to swipe your thumb back and forth when needed. Not that I really care how people use controllers.

ReFracture said:

and at least with ZDoom based engines the support is excellent

No, my message applies to all source ports, including ZDoom. It's well implemented from a technical standpoint, but the lack of aim acceleration and the ability to straferun is still present.

This is about gameplay mechanics, not the raw implementation of controller input.

[ReFracture]

I better understand what you're getting at now.

I just played around a bit with ZDoom and an xbox one controller. At default 'overall sensitivity' for forward/backward and strafe movement (both bound to the left thumbstick) strafe running is not possible.

I found increasing the value to 1.8 for both of them allows strafe running, though my method is not scientific due to lack of numbers.

The difference in movement speed at default settings between sr40 on a keyboard and holding the stick as precisely to the corner as I could was dramatic. I can't tell a difference with the elevated sensitivity. Lowering the sensitivity reduces maximum movement speed, so it appears that this setting can accommodate controllers of various ranges. Mind you all of this was done on the 'xinput' settings, I can't speak to controllers using different APIs.

Aim acceleration on the other hand.. I have no input.

[Blzut3]

I don't have a PS3 controller on hand to confirm, but I'm pretty sure this is abstracted away either at the API or hardware there. I don't recall ever having trouble maxing out both the X and Y axis on any of my controllers regardless of what shape the input area is physically. Maybe the Xbox controller and/or Xinput is different, but I have no such controller so I wouldn't know.

In fact not long ago there was a controversy going on over at Zandronum since some players discovered that gamepads can auto SR50 and turn at the same time, so some people started hacking their binary to compensate with keyboard+mouse controls. End result of course is we had to nerf the game pad controls.

[Jayextee]

Maes said:

A perfectly legitimate choice of controller or control scheme is invalidated ENTIRELY by the highest player performance, even with casual players.

:P

[Maes]

TheNerdTurtle2 said:

I disagree, tons of people play with claw grip. My friend and I play Super Smash Brothers Melee all the time and he always claw grips. That's at least two hours of straight claw gripping and he doesn't get tired

OK, and I had a grand-grandfather that smoked every day and yet lived to be 100.
Or, if you want a more sports oriented example, high-jump athletes used a different technique in the past, which none uses anymore at least at a competition level, and there are no "oldschool" or "shitty old technique" leagues AFAIK. So what's your point again?

[Da Werecat]

That it's okay to play with gamepads?

[Maes]

Da Werecat said:

That it's okay to play with gamepads?

No. Anyone daring to play our One True God Doom in a way that detracts from its full potential, is an infidel.

If playing with keyboard + mouse is like being an top-class testosterone-laden black athlete, playing with a gamepad is like being a frail old lady with a stick. Which one would you rather be?

[ReFracture]

That's some glorious talk right there Maes.

[Jaxxoon R]

What about keyboard only?

[Maes]

Jaxxoon R said:

What about keyboard only?

Slightly better than gamepad (esp. if you consider classic 4-button gamepads), mostly because of better ergonomics and hand/finger biomechanics, but going back to it feels like being crippled after using WASD + mouse.

[Da Werecat]

Better ergonomics, sure.

[Jon]

Sodaholic said:

I get that controllers aren't the most popular method of input around here, but the silence is somewhat bothersome. :/

I tend to be keyboard only, but occasionally I use my joypad, but it's an 8bitdo SFC30 with a 4-way digital d-pad so I didn't see this discussion as relevant to my situation, sorry.

[jazzmaster9]

Maes said:

No. Anyone daring to play our One True God Doom in a way that detracts from its full potential, is an infidel.

If playing with keyboard + mouse is like being an top-class testosterone-laden black athlete, playing with a gamepad is like being a frail old lady with a stick. Which one would you rather be?

If a frail old lady is what I like to be, then i choose that :P
Its a matter of preference.

[Azazel Bloodfucker]

jazzmaster9 said:

If a frail old lady is what I like to be, then i choose that :P

I agree I would be an old lady as well, but I do like playing with my mouse and keyboard better.

[Paul977]

Gamepad and keyboard-only are not so different in game efficiency, also with the gamepad you can stay in a more comfortable position while playing ;D
Sure keyboard+mouse is, in game-play, superior due to the fast rotations.

[Maes]

jazzmaster9 said:

If a frail old lady is what I like to be, then i choose that :P
Its a matter of preference.

Or of not having gotten your ass handed to you by a BFG griefer on Brit10 enough times.

[ReFracture]

What of co-op or single player? Will you bless us then? Or are we ...doomed to be peasants, serving the second and first classes above us until we repent for our input sins?

[Da Werecat]

Game mode is irrelevant. Maes will only know peace when all traces of gamepads' existence are eradicated.

[Maes]

Da Werecat said:

Game mode is irrelevant. Maes will only know peace when all traces of gamepads' existence are eradicated.

Nah, they are OK for Super Mario Land and handhelds. For everything else, there's almost always a better alternative.

[Da Werecat]

What is better for a typical platformer?

For a fighting game?

[Jaxxoon R]

The Bowser fights in Mario 64 are a nightmare on a keyboard, for one.