Military coup in Turkey?

[dew]

Mm, you actually did respond to everything, and thoroughly to boot. You're alright in my book!

Sure Bowb said:

MJ a ChristBot

Eh, stick around, read a few threads, have a few conversations with him. This isn't a contextless hiding, it's a result of frustration over his behaviour spanning several past months. He does the willful ignorance game all the time.

Sure Bowb said:

2M people moving

We're in agreement on this. I should also mention that not all of the Syrians are actually "on the move". A lot of them stick around the Syrian-Turkish border, waiting till it's safe to return home. Erdogan wouldn't be able to "dump" those at Europe simply by opening the borders, of course. There's still a huge mass of people trying to find their way West at any cost and the question is how many of them are there because they're war refugees and how many are simply economical migrants. People from Pakistan pretending to be Syrians, because Europeans are stupid and can't recognize a darkie from a darkie. The religious aspect is minor, despite Daesh having an "open window" to infiltrate Europe in it.

Sure Bowb said:

Erdogan ... "religious fundamentalist" might be a bit too much, but it sure is a matter of the eye of the beholder.

Calling him a nationalist...

"The powers that be"...

Agreed on those points.

Sure Bowb said:

OK, Netanyahu is worse, but I don't think that makes Erdogan less of an extremist. I'd rather consider such a way of underlining your point of view as "whataboutismic". The mere fact that others are worse does not make Erdogan less of a problem, in fact it makes Erdogan potentially worse, because -by way of perception- he appears to be the "lesser evil", which is giving him potentially more leeway in the long run. Evil is still not good, to say the least.

My "what about it" point is that you cannot take things out of context here - and in this case it would be talking about Turkey and Turkey alone like it was the only country in the world. Yes, Erdogan is evil and things are going to be worse from now on, he already started massive purges, he hunts Gulan supporters and anyone seemingly opposing him with accusations of supporting Gulan, he will probably launch another attack on the constitution...

This debate started when MetroidJunkie ragged on Obama for "supporting the extremist" instead of, I assume, supporting the putchists and that's a huge jump towards moral relativism. The instability to the entire region in case of a successful coup would escalate dramatically and honestly, would they be less restrained in deposing and jailing the opposition? Would a junta truly be a lesser evil? That is why I think the Egypt example in particular is very spot on and not really a "whataboutism".

Sure Bowb said:

I guess we'll see how things turn out. As far as Merkel goes, I don't see anything spectular going on. As far as I am concerned, she's rather passive, and likes to move where the wind blows her.

Oh, no no. Merkel was anything but that. She was actually ridiculously stubborn, the "open doors" policy was her baby (well, also the Austrians', but they left her hanging very soon afterwards) and she stuck to it throughout the crisis despite all her allies leaving her one by one. She was the main driving force behind the negotiations with Turkey, most other countries (especially France) were shaking to spit in Erdogan's face. Merkel took a strong stance at the beginning of the crisis and only then started her usual "withering the storm" waiting game, but she never changed her tune. There was a lot of debate whether Merkel was using Erdogan or the other way.

Sure Bowb said:

As far as Turkey's privileges are considered: Those are likely going to get wiped, unless there will be massive changes in Turkey, which with Erdogan in charge, is highly unlikely to happen at this point in time, because he is now the "victim turned victor", and as such enjoys a bit of a hype revolving around him. It will be most interesting to see how long that hype lasts however.

It is quite probable that his popularity will surge in the short term, but the issues will be back soon. It was very fortunate for him from the economy standpoint that he apologized to Russia and got the sanctions to be dropped, because now the hit to his machism and pride is all but forgotten now. Although it's hard to predict whether Russian tourists will storm the country in this particular "climate".

On the other hand, his European mission is all but ended. The European countries already complained about the brutality of his purges and there is no way Turkey gets the visa requirement dropped for who knows how many years. It would be a real shame if Erdogan's answer to "can't get closer to Europe" was "well then, we'll get farther from it, bring out the gallows".

Sure Bowb said:

Well, it might be right for himself...

Juggling too many balls ... employing shady, despicable methods.

Agreed.

Sure Bowb said:

I think this is part of the reason why so many people consider the coup staged, and I am honestly not sure what to think at this point, because it's quite likely that not all the actual information is publically available. The coup seemed to have given him some leeway, like I said already, but borrowed time usually does not last long.

Many people dislike the idea that world is chaotic and such surprising things can happen in the face of extensive surveillance and security measures. There's something almost comforting that even all the evil stuff happens because a small cadre of elites manipulates the events. Truthism is a less scary variant of the real world, so to say.

I mentioned before that the Turkish army hates Erdogan's guts, so despite the majority of the army staying faithful to the republic during the coup, I don't see how he'd be able to organize such an event within an instutition that probably dreams about deposing him every night, heh. I honestly don't know if the Gulan supporters were behind this (unlikely) or it was a group of secularists and Ataturk faithfuls (maybe) or just a group of disillusioned generals who got cut away from their economical power during the previous purges (wouldn't be surprised in the slightest).

Sure Bowb said:

Well, I guess this is where we may have to agree that we just don't agree. Once a person in charge is not hesitant to hit all the levers in his reach anymore, while also not caring about how shady, and inhuman his actions are, it's an exremist in my book.

Good, I'll edit Erdogan's wiki and you'll edit Putin's. :)

Sure Bowb said:

I think a military coup is bad news in general, on the other hand though, we have no idea what the motivation behind it was. Sure we can easily say that the military wanted its power back, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case, on the other hand however, when you think about how the turkish military gets involved in certain conflicts with Kurds, power may not have been the only reason.

I don't follow the bit about the Kurds, can you explain?

Sure Bowb said:

As I have said already I don't have it in me to deem Erdogan less problematic, because shit stinks nastier elsewhere. On a more personal note I am not too fond of Western countries' standards, because a fair portion of these standards are candy-coated bullshit as well.

Oh, you'll see my ragging on Erdogan in a different thread like there is no tomorrow, he's an evil despot. I started in this thread with a slight hope that the coup would go through and we'll see a better tomorrow. I very much disliked the one-sided way some people (MetroidJunkie) see this issue in, though. It is not fair and it is dishonest. The world, especially in the Middle East, is complex and fucked up. Getting all enraged about Erdogan's evil badness while ignoring how questionable the coup is and tolerating even worse scum in the surrounding countries just gets me going.

Sure Bowb said:

In my book "dictator" is a euphemism for "extremist", as much as "crisis" is a euphemism for "war" nowadays. Dictators are dictators for a reason, after all.

Eh, I disagree. Far too much jumping to conclusions by equating the terms.

Sure Bowb said:

I'm not even remotely scared, sorry.

You don't have to be anymore. :P

Sure Bowb said:

Don't pigeonhole me into the religious direction. I think I've made it clear enough that the religion in and off itself is not the actual issue. The problem is how it can be abused, and with Erdogan in charge it is likely to happen.

Fair, but I'll just say that when MetroidJunkie talks about extremism, he really means religious extremism, because he's a rigid ChristBot himself. He's been harping about evil Muslims for several months. If you don't see it, you lack the context. Feel free to defend it, but you'll be wrong.

Sure Bowb said:

What about Hizmet + What about Gulen = Whataboutism

Gulen is Erdogan's big evil nemesis. He was pretty much his best pal, but then they had a spat (power grabbing related?) and now they're at each other's throat. Of course, with Gulen residing in the US, his methods are much more shady, while Erdogan just blames even his morning constipation on a scheme by Gulen's traitors. That said, it is quite probable that if Erdogan fell, the next leader would be a Gulen puppet.

The ironic part is that they're like peas in a pod. Both rightwingers, both socially conservative orthodox Muslims. The guy used to be an imam. The only reason why America might like Gulen more is because he's more liberal on the economic front.

Sure Bowb said:

My stance in a nutshell: The "least worst" is not necessarily "good". Furthermore, we don't need to talk about things that don't matter at the moment. Erdogan is in charge for having been considered the lesser evil, so to speak. The fact that he is losing popularity may open doors for more radical people in the future as a result, which makes Erdogan actually even more dangerous than he already is, because whoever is in charge after he is out of office may abuse Erdogan's "work" even more.

As you said, we'll see, but I don't think talking about the broader strokes of Turkish status quo is unnecessary. If anything, it shows that our positions are not that far from each other, heh.

Hope you don't mind I took the liberty to shorten the quotes where there wasn't much to discuss.

[Gez]

dew said:

Gulen is Erdogan's big evil nemesis. He was pretty much his best pal, but then they had a spat (power grabbing related?) and now they're at each other's throat.

Basically, Gulen is to Erdogan what Trotsky was to Stalin.

[Cupboard]

RIP Snowball

[Programme]

U.S. banned all flights between U.S. and Turkey.
http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2016/07/17/475625/US-flights-Turkey-FAA?

[Nine Inch Heels]

dew said:

Mm, you actually did respond to everything, and thoroughly to boot. You're alright in my book!

Glad we cleared that up. :-)

dew said:

Eh, stick around, read a few threads, have a few conversations with him. This isn't a contextless hiding, it's a result of frustration over his behaviour spanning several past months. He does the willful ignorance game all the time.

Well, I guess I'll get the picture over time, if things are how you describe them.

In regards to the self-fulfilling prophecies: Well, it might not apply to MJ, but I am very confident that it does apply to many others, which in turn makes matters worse once these "insecurities" are being abused, which is also already happening to some degree, but there is still room to make it worse. The last thing the world needs is another witch-hunt.

dew said:

We're in agreement on this. I should also mention that not all of the Syrians are actually "on the move". A lot of them stick around the Syrian-Turkish border, waiting till it's safe to return home. [...] The religious aspect is minor, despite Daesh having an "open window" to infiltrate Europe in it.

I don't differentiate a lot between war refugess and economical migrants anymore, more often than not poverty is a result of war and vice versa. But, of course, quite a few refugees actually want to get back home to rebuild and have a place of their own. These people however will be the last ones that are a cause for concern.

dew said:

My "what about it" point is that you cannot take things out of context here - and in this case it would be talking about Turkey and Turkey alone like it was the only country in the world. Yes, Erdogan is evil and things are going to be worse from now on, he already started massive purges, he hunts Gulan supporters and anyone seemingly opposing him with accusations of supporting Gulan, he will probably launch another attack on the constitution...

Well, obviously some contexts do play a role, as far as Erdogan goes, he will still be an issue regardless. I was essentially trying to draw the conversation away from the "Erdogan is not extreme enough in comparison to others, to be considered an extremist" kind of approach.

dew said:

This debate started when MetroidJunkie ragged on Obama for "supporting the extremist" instead of, I assume, supporting the putchists and that's a huge jump towards moral relativism. [...] That is why I think the Egypt example in particular is very spot on and not really a "whataboutism".

I am not entirely sure as to how Obama supported extremists in this context, it is however worth noting that the USA do have a history of instrumentalizing extremists for their own interests, much as they would exploit nationalistic rulers to advance their own geopolitical plans. "Why do the dirty work, when someone else can do it just fine?" That's pretty much what I think plays a role here, and in general.

dew said:

Oh, no no. Merkel was anything but that. She was actually ridiculously stubborn, the "open doors" policy was her baby (well, also the Austrians', but they left her hanging very soon afterwards) and she stuck to it throughout the crisis despite all her allies leaving her one by one. She was the main driving force behind the negotiations with Turkey, [...] There was a lot of debate whether Merkel was using Erdogan or the other way.

As far as the refugees are a topic she seems to have been somewhat stubborn, on that I will agree. But when you look at how she's playing lab-dog as much as she possibly can, her stubborn behaviour sure looks like an exception, and I daresay it actually is one. I think the way how she tried to still negotiate with Erdogan, as well as how calm she was when it came to Putin's push for more real estate, was not the dumbest thing to do. Regardless, Merkel is rather the kind of person to play everybody's darling for most of the time, acting only when the situation is in a critical state rather than handling issues proactively.

dew said:

It is quite probable that his popularity will surge in the short term, but the issues will be back soon. It was very fortunate for him from the economy standpoint that he apologized to Russia and got the sanctions to be dropped, because now the hit to his machism and pride is all but forgotten now. Although it's hard to predict whether Russian tourists will storm the country in this particular "climate".

Turkey is by no means the most calm of places at this point in time, which further destabilizes the economy, because tourism was quite the big deal for them. I'd not be surprised if Erdogan would soon be looking for investors to weather the storm that is about to occur as soon as people lose their jobs.

dew said:

On the other hand, his European mission is all but ended. The European countries already complained about the brutality of his purges and there is no way Turkey gets the visa requirement dropped for who knows how many years. It would be a real shame if Erdogan's answer to "can't get closer to Europe" was "well then, we'll get farther from it, bring out the gallows".

Well, this is another frightening thought for sure. Erdogan has already shown tendencies to not care about what the EU wants. One more reason why he is dangerous in general.

dew said:

Many people dislike the idea that world is chaotic and such surprising things can happen in the face of extensive surveillance and security measures. There's something almost comforting that even all the evil stuff happens because a small cadre of elites manipulates the events. Truthism is a less scary variant of the real world, so to say.

You mean the same people who willingly give up personal freedom in exchange for more "safety"?

dew said:

I mentioned before that the Turkish army hates Erdogan's guts, so despite the majority of the army staying faithful to the republic during the coup, I don't see how he'd be able to organize such an event within an instutition that probably dreams about deposing him every night, heh. I honestly don't know if the Gulan supporters were behind this (unlikely) or it was a group of secularists and Ataturk faithfuls (maybe) or just a group of disillusioned generals who got cut away from their economical power during the previous purges (wouldn't be surprised in the slightest).

I bet there's a lot more to it than we can imagine. The idea of dressing people up to make it look a defense when it actually was an offense is also nothing new. There are quite a few reasons to be imaginable here, and all things considered I would be surprised if Erdogan had not yet compromised the turkish military to a certain degree, that would allow for some serious manipulation. He's had enough time to do so for sure.

dew said:

Good, I'll edit Erdogan's wiki and you'll edit Putin's. :)

I don't follow the bit about the Kurds, can you explain?

If I remember correctly the Kurds are fighting the IS even harder than Erdogan does, however Erdogan refused to cooperate with them for the greater good, and instead waged war on both IS and the Kurds at times (collateral damage my rear-end). Keep in mind though, that is it all based on what I remember from newspapers and whatnot, and it's been a while since I last read anything "out of the ordinary" on that topic. The fact of matter is that Erdogan does not even cooperate with the Kurds if it is for his own good. If you really want to know more I can do some digging, but you might as well fire up your own search, because why not.

dew said:

Oh, you'll see my ragging on Erdogan in a different thread like there is no tomorrow, he's an evil despot. I started in this thread with a slight hope that the coup would go through and we'll see a better tomorrow. I very much disliked the one-sided way some people (MetroidJunkie) see this issue in, though. It is not fair and it is dishonest. The world, especially in the Middle East, is complex and fucked up. Getting all enraged about Erdogan's evil badness while ignoring how questionable the coup is and tolerating even worse scum in the surrounding countries just gets me going.

Rightfully so.

dew said:

Eh, I disagree. Far too much jumping to conclusions by equating the terms.

Ok, let me try another one: Let's look at Greece and these so-called bandaids that go there. Said Bandaids are nothing more than credits. Calling one thing differently is part of political power and influence, and there are many words that politicians in particular shy away from. You're welcome to not agree however.

dew said:

Fair, but I'll just say that when MetroidJunkie talks about extremism, he really means religious extremism, because he's a rigid ChristBot himself. He's been harping about evil Muslims for several months. If you don't see it, you lack the context. Feel free to defend it, but you'll be wrong.

Well, I've said my piece already. In case it is as you describe it, I'd rather have a moderator handle the situation, though.

dew said:

Gulen is Erdogan's big evil nemesis. He was pretty much his best pal, but then they had a spat (power grabbing related?) and now they're at each other's throat. Of course, with Gulen residing in the US, his methods are much more shady, while Erdogan just blames even his morning constipation on a scheme by Gulen's traitors. That said, it is quite probable that if Erdogan fell, the next leader would be a Gulen puppet.

That would make the next leader more or less a puppet of the US as well, wouldn't it? In fact, would it change anything at all, if the general idea was to destabilize the entire country for dubious reasons?

dew said:

The ironic part is that they're like peas in a pod. Both rightwingers, both socially conservative orthodox Muslims. The guy used to be an imam. The only reason why America might like Gulen more is because he's more liberal on the economic front.

Yeah, that's why I wonder if there is more to it than just having a president go nuts.

dew said:

As you said, we'll see, but I don't think talking about the broader strokes of Turkish status quo is unnecessary. If anything, it shows that our positions are not that far from each other, heh.

Yup.

dew said:

Hope you don't mind I took the liberty to shorten the quotes where there wasn't much to discuss.

No problem.

[VGamingJunkie]

https://www.rt.com/news/351694-incirlik-base-commender-detained/


What's this about?

[Nine Inch Heels]

MetroidJunkie said:

https://www.rt.com/news/351694-incirlik-base-commender-detained/


What's this about?

It clearly states what it is about.

[VGamingJunkie]

I meant what are the implications of the guy commanding a base of US Nukes being detained? Does that mean Erdogan potentially now has access to US Nukes!?

[Cupboard]

Junkies have had access to US nukes for years. They are actually the button-pushers sometimes and the key-turners. A lot of people cheat on the entrance exams as well

[Nine Inch Heels]

nope... it just means there were nukes... among other things...

[Avoozl]

I have a Turkish friend who has been recently recalled to Turkey to do the mandatory military service otherwise he risks losing his Turkish Citizenship.

[Nine Inch Heels]

Avoozl said:

I have a Turkish friend who has been recently recalled to Turkey to do the mandatory military service otherwise he risks losing his Turkish Citizenship.

Is that usual, or is it just now a thing that happened?

[Gez]

MetroidJunkie said:

I meant what are the implications of the guy commanding a base of US Nukes being detained? Does that mean Erdogan potentially now has access to US Nukes!?

No. Under nuclear sharing agreement, the nukes are guarded by USAF personnel during peace time (and pretty much everything that isn't WW3 is peace time as far as nukes are concerned, the bombing campaign in Iraq and Syria doesn't make this not peace time). Turkey couldn't steal the nukes.

Not that it would do them much good if they tried. Read about your PAL, the Permissive Action Link, and how nukes can easily be made inoperable -- there's a disarming procedure that's just inputting a three-digit code and yanking out a T-shaped piece, and there you go, the bomb won't ever blow up; but worst case you can just toss a grenade at it or something, it'll do the job just as well. These bombs were designed for it to be near-impossible to get them to detonate by accident, lack of maintenance, or vandalism; they are fail-safe instead of fail-deadly.

[dew]

Sure Bowb said:

If I remember correctly the Kurds are fighting the IS even harder than Erdogan does, however Erdogan refused to cooperate with them for the greater good, and instead waged war on both IS and the Kurds at times (collateral damage my rear-end). Keep in mind though, that is it all based on what I remember from newspapers and whatnot, and it's been a while since I last read anything "out of the ordinary" on that topic. The fact of matter is that Erdogan does not even cooperate with the Kurds if it is for his own good. If you really want to know more I can do some digging, but you might as well fire up your own search, because why not.

Most of the points are getting a bit uninterestingly agreeable or at least tolerable without a need for reaction, so I'll focus just on this one.

The Kurds were indeed the only combat-ready force in the region and they fought bitterly when Syrian and Iraqi armies ran, rebel forces switched sides and Turkish army just watched. There's a reason for this, however. For decades the Kurds are semi-prepared to fight for Kurdistan. Their dreamed up country spans across parts of Iraq, Syria and... Turkey. Starting to see the problem? The Turkish Kurds of PKK have been fighting a guerilla war with thousands of deaths on both Kurdish and Turkish side for decades. The Syrian Kurds of YPG are their allies and while they always claim non-responsibility for PKK's terror strikes, the Turks will have none of it and assume joint Kurdish blame.

Any Turkish president will go to war before allowing the southeastern part of the country to secede and join Kurdistan. Only a liberal one would approve of extending autonomy. Humanitarian issues about bombing the Kurds is the very last issue the Turkish army would rebel about, heh. It's like the one issue on which the secular Ataturk-faithful loyalists and Erdogan's new order agree, so I cannot see the connection between the Kurdish problem and the coup, tbh. If anything, the current chaos and weakened state of the army could give a boost to PKK, so I wouldn't be surprised about growing unrest and ambushes on police and military forces in the east of the country.

[Gez]

Kurdistan stretches through Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran. The Syrian part of Kurdistan is called Rojava, which IIRC simply means "western", as in Western Kurdistan. (Turkey has northern, Iraq has southern, and Iran has eastern.)

It's also important to note that the PKK (Kurdistan's Workers Party), the terrorist group Turkey hates, has renounced separatism. Its leader Abdullah Öcalan, nicknamed Apo, has spent a long time in Turkish jail (where he remains to this day) has changed his political philosophy from one trying to obtain independence through arms to a more peace-and-love version. Notably, instead of independence, he has suggested a political compromise where all four Kurdistans would remain under the sovereignty of their respective nation states but also form a shared confederation of border-free regions with some degree of autonomy.

The PKK has a splinter group that rejected the PKK's new peaceful and political agenda, the TAK. Usually when Turkey accuses the PKK of an attentat, it was actually committed by the TAK (if it was committed by Kurds at all). There are also the YPG and YPJ (people's/women's protection units), which are active in Syria, and form the bulk of the SDF (Syrian Democratic Forces), the troops backed by the coalition against Daesh in northern Syria. Turkey claims the YPG/YPJ are arms of the PKK, the YPG/YPJ deny this. In truth, the YPG and YPJ are the military arms of the PYD (Democratic Union Party), but the PYD does share the ideology of the PKK. (Note: Kurds love three-letter acronyms. It's easy to get confused.)

Anyway, the result is that Turkey is very upset at the territorial gains of the SDF, as they see a Syria controlled by Daesh as much less threatening to them than a Syria controlled by the Kurds. Turkey has actually closed the border with Syria where control on the Syrian side has been seized by the Kurds -- they had left it open when it was controlled by Daesh. They have repeatedly threatened to attack Kurdish positions if they seized Jarabulus, which is the last city on the border between Turkey and Syria that is controlled by Daesh. This has forced the SDF to concentrate on Manbij instead, further to the south, leaving some Daesh presence on the north as a buffer between them and Turkey.

But Turkey doesn't hate all Kurds equally. Notably, they get along fine with the Iraqi Kurds of the PDK. This is, of course, because the PDK is very hostile to the PKK... While they don't fight militarily against each other, the Iraqi and Syrian Kurds are opposed politically on most points. Ironically, the PDK is the one that is most proponent of Kurdish separatism now, but they're still the ones that get Turkey's support. In Syria, Turkey prefers to back Turkmen rebels, which are mostly affiliated with Nusra Front (basically: Al-Qaeda). When Turkey shot down a Russian jet, that jet was busy bombing Turkmen rebels. Fortunately it just so happened that the Turkish pilot who shot down the Russian jet was among the coup plotters so now he's dead, so Russia doesn't need to keep holding a grudge over it, right?

[Nine Inch Heels]

Well, the Kurds have their own agenda as much as the next fraction. That's not surprising at all. What I think of as the actual issue here is, that instead of trying to resolve the conflicting agendas, or at least put them to rest for the time being, Erdogan let the guns do the talking. There has been no evidence of actual dimplomacy between Turkey and the Kurds, and that is not only shameful, it is also inhuman.

[Gez]

As I said, the Kurds are not a monolithic block, and Turkey did support some Kurds (against others).

It's also important to point out that historically, Erdogan rose to power largely thanks to the Kurds. The AKP gained a lot of votes from the Kurdish regions of Turkey thanks to a platform of reconciliation. Erdogan's religious conservatism platform was opposed to the Kemalist nationalist platform, and for the nationalist platform there are the Turks and only the Turks so other ethnic groups are to be oppressed until they renounce their identity and accept to be just Turks.

Erdogan and the rest of the AKP only did a 180° on their friendship with the Kurds when they started to vote for other people, notably with the HDP party gaining over 10% of the votes and thus being partly responsible for depriving Erdogan from the supermajority he sought. The result was immediate: resumption of military attacks against Kurdish towns in Turkey, threatening to outlaw the HDP, vandalism of HDP offices by thugs affiliated to the AKP, removal of parliamentary immunity on Kurdish MPs, and anticipated elections to get rid of that bad result. Erdogan was happy, the new elections were a lot more satisfactory.

[VGamingJunkie]

Gez said:

No. Under nuclear sharing agreement, the nukes are guarded by USAF personnel during peace time (and pretty much everything that isn't WW3 is peace time as far as nukes are concerned, the bombing campaign in Iraq and Syria doesn't make this not peace time). Turkey couldn't steal the nukes.

Not that it would do them much good if they tried. Read about your PAL, the Permissive Action Link, and how nukes can easily be made inoperable -- there's a disarming procedure that's just inputting a three-digit code and yanking out a T-shaped piece, and there you go, the bomb won't ever blow up; but worst case you can just toss a grenade at it or something, it'll do the job just as well. These bombs were designed for it to be near-impossible to get them to detonate by accident, lack of maintenance, or vandalism; they are fail-safe instead of fail-deadly.

Alright, good, I was concerned for a minute there that Erdogan potentially had access to a base full of nukes. Thanks for clearing it up.

[Reisal]

Up to 8,000 police are losing their jobs as part of Erdogan's "purge" and WikiLeaks is going to release the Turkish power structure following the coup attempt.

I hope I'm not too late with this info.

[Mechazawa]

We need a Godwin's Law but for "nukes".

As if "nukes" is some magical staff and the wizard who gets it rules the world. Fucking Pakistan has nukes. They aren't a big deal. Many more countries probably have them in secret and their relevance to anything is nil. Also people like to believe that making a nuke is some eldritch arcane knowledge only super powers have.. its stupid. McDonalds could probably build thousands of them and nobody would know. The materials can be gotten for relatively cheap, and the knowledge and RnD is already established and out there.

[VGamingJunkie]

Except it's generally agreed that nukes are extremely destructive and should be discouraged at all costs. If every nation could make nukes without restraint, the world would be an uninhabitable radioactive wasteland. If they were really as much an idle threat as you claimed, NATO wouldn't be building missile systems all over Eastern Europe claiming to be meant to counter a potential Iran nuclear threat. The only time people don't take nuclear threats seriously is when they're coming from North Korea because we know they won't follow through.

[Gez]

Mechazawa said:

Also people like to believe that making a nuke is some eldritch arcane knowledge only super powers have.. its stupid. McDonalds could probably build thousands of them and nobody would know. The materials can be gotten for relatively cheap, and the knowledge and RnD is already established and out there.

It's not that easy. The materiel and materials you need are monitored and creating weapon-grade plutonium is quite a bit harder than civilian-grade.

And while the theoretical knowledge of how to build a nuke is well established, the practical knowledge is something different.

And finally McDonalds doesn't need nukes, they can kill a lot more people with greasy food than they ever could with nukes.

[dew]

MetroidJunkie said:

Except it's generally agreed that nukes are extremely destructive and should be discouraged at all costs. If every nation could make nukes without restraint, the world would be an uninhabitable radioactive wasteland. If they were really as much an idle threat as you claimed, NATO wouldn't be building missile systems all over Eastern Europe claiming to be meant to counter a potential Iran nuclear threat. The only time people don't take nuclear threats seriously is when they're coming from North Korea because we know they won't follow through.

Actually, NK is the only country that could possibly go through, because their leadership is batshit insane. Iran would never go through with it, they know they'd get bombed into the stoneage in retaliation. A lot of countries strive for nukes, because that silly thing called "nuclear deterrent", look it up. And Russia cannot be stopped with any tiny meaningless "shield" NATO throws at them. Also America doesn't build anything all over Eastern Europe, just one x-band radar in Romania. The radar was supposed to be built in Czechia originally, but we refused the plan exactly because its function is highly questionable. The radar's most likely function might as well be to spy on the Russians closely and with better resolution.

Mechazawa is part right. It's very easy to build a nuke these days, any third-tier nation would manage that (for example Czechia). Miniaturizing the nuclear device enough to fit into a ballistic payload AND developing a rocket that would carry it is the challenging task that even Iran struggles with and NK fakes out.

[VGamingJunkie]

Except Iran probably wouldn't target the United States first, they're more likely to strike Israel if they're able to get away with it.

[dew]

MetroidJunkie said:

Except Iran probably wouldn't target the United States first, they're more likely to strike Israel if they're able to get away with it.

Uh, no shit, Sherlock. Except they'd get fucking leveled and turned to glass by the US then. They want the weapon for the reason I already stated: nuclear deterrence. The fact they'd be able to hit Israel with at least one nuke would mean America wouldn't be able to invade them at a whim. This is what non-American countries fear, you know? Bullying from Murca.

[VGamingJunkie]

Don't know what they're worried about then because this is the most reluctant president we've had in decades. He won't even follow through on threats that he himself made. He actually threatened to shoot down Israeli jets if they tried to take out Iranian facilities.

[dew]

Do fuck off, please.

[VGamingJunkie]

Do try to remain somewhat civil, that's hardly a response.

[Mechazawa]

Nobody would get leveled by anything, because the most intelligent use of a nuclear weapon in todays age is to use it via a proxy like Daesh or some other group so that no one nation could be blamed. It would not be fired, it would just be a device sitting in a truck or something and then someone sets it off. Boom, the whole fallacy of "getting bombed into the stonage" is wiped clean when you can't determine who set the bomb off. There are a lot of cargo trucks going to and fro throughout Eurasia.

I think people watch too many movies if they think a big ass plane with Iranian flags on it is going to drop a bomb, or some big ass silo is going to open up and launch a rocket that everyone and their mother can see on radar and satellite.

In this regard America is quite safe.. we check every ship that comes in and we only have two borders to worry about. Though, that border with Mexico is kinda shite.

[VGamingJunkie]

That's one reason why, whether you love him or hate him, Trump makes a great point about building a wall. It's a great big hole in our defenses that needs to be addressed.