The DWmegawad Club plays: Estranged

[rehelekretep]

demo here

pretty dull second map. didnt really understand the revenant 'towers'? just had to take them out with the sg from behind a corner...

the bit i did like was the HK teleports and the start/near end with the pillars and the imps/zombies/sgs/pinkies

i may also add in a MUS wad - any suggestions? are there any custom midis aside from map28?

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP02 Waste Treatment

Easy enough to remember for me, although there's definitely a surge in the monster amounts on the higher levels. The first time I tested this the one secret actually didn't have anything in it, but it should be fine by now. Again, some nasty sniper placement in places, even in this more interior-designed map. There's one switch which felt like a complete red herring to me. I saw a huge set of demons and ran to that switch only for it to drop the bridge into the nukage, heh. But on the bright side I actually got behind the demons with the nearby teleporter and that put me at a more advantageous position. For a level like this, the supplies are deceptively tight. Perhaps that's one thing I remember, at least from testings of old, was that many of the maps here can get quite tight on supplies, even if I'm on continuous. But then again, I am horrible at ammo management anyways, so fuck me for not being more careful I guess.

[Spectre01]

Map 03: Survey Centre

A much larger map this time and feeling like an expanded version of the first, with a base start and then some winding paths along the rocky cliffs. The geometry is a lot more interesting and natural, and there's a degree of verticality to the combat. The way you path back to the start after grabbing the red key is also nice. There's some tension in the beginning since you have to wrestle a Shotgun away from a Sergeant near a Cacodemon to start shooting things. I'm not a fan of the Pistol Start setup here where you spend 90% of the map with 100 max HP, no armour and no Chaingun. And there's a lot of stuff to shoot. Luckily, you do get a Chainsaw to handle those annoying Lost Souls and Demons. There's also a ton of cliff snipers, especially in the 2nd outdoor area with Revenants, which promotes a camping-oriented approach, since you don't have the defense to survive any crossfire. Pretty much all the combat is incidental with the map being populated from the get-go. I have no issues with that and don't think every wad needs to be Plutonia Worship where everything is a trap. At this point though, Estranged reminds me of a smaller, less detailed and ambitious Hellbound. And just like the latter, Pistol Starting does not feel like the intended way to play and I've got quite the roast prepared for map04 in regards to that. Might be switching to continuous after map05 since the author mentions "playable" and not "intended for".

[grahf]

Map 03 Survey Center:
This map is similar to Map 01 but considerably bigger and more than 2x the demons. It has some interior techbase but most of the level takes place in outside, stone-textured open areas with nukage below. The demons are a mix, with a considerable number of lost souls making an annoying appearance. Thus the level is definitely not as easy as 01-02. But, you have tons of resources to deal with everything, for the most part - in the form of a RL with ample ammo.

[Tristan]

rehelekretep said:

i may also add in a MUS wad - any suggestions? are there any custom midis aside from map28?

11 (I think), 15, 27, 28, 30, 31 use non-IWAD midis. 29 and 32 were supposed to but that's a different story..

[baja blast rd.]

Yeah I didn't notice originally that the mapset actually has midi replacements, since D_RUNNIN makes me immediately reset with -nomusic.

[Salt-Man Z]

MAP03: Survey Centre
21:14 | 99% Kills | 100% Items | 100% Secrets

Missed one monster who got stuck in his teleporter closet. (I could hear him from the exit.) A fun map, with good execution of naturalistic features without getting overdetailed. I especially liked the northern caverns, and particularly enjoyed how they dump you out back near the red door. Otherwise, still not much to write home about; it definitely allows for a more relaxed style of play, which I certainly won't complain about. The pinkie ambushes kept taking me by surprise, and I'm too slow to switch weapons on the keyboard, so despite my trusty continuous chainsaw, I still mostly used actual ammo on them—which was fine, as there was more than enough still laying around when I exited. And the radsuit felt pretty unnecessary since you were only entering the nukage accidentally, anyway.

[Aquanet]

MAP02: Waste Treatment

This hugs the grid pretty tight but still parcels out fun little encounters. You can also feel the adventure map format beginning to peek through. There's a feeling of not knowing exactly what's around the next corner, although there's not a ton of variation. It feels very competently Doomy with height being used to separate different spaces, and having the level loop back on itself. I guess linearity is a significant part of this megawad (from what people say and what little I've seen), so it's going to need some adventure.

I suppose the walkway-dropping switch is considered fair because there's a health pack, which should give you enough to waddle over to the teleporter. It's also funny. The earlier blur sphere seems pointless.

[sudo459]

MAP02: I'm starting to notice something about the detail... it's blocky. And I mean, like 64x64 blocky. Not a bad thing though, it helps the areas that aren't like that stand out more. Not much to say about this level, the difficulty is picking up, if only slightly. There's also alot of shells, way more than you need. Overall, a fairly typical "waste processing" level, but fun.

MAP03: A map that's mostly comprised of outdoor areas like the first level? Sure, I'd go for that. I'm definitely enjoying these types of areas more than the indoor areas. One encounter that really stands out to me here, is the when you first are able to go outside. The revenent turret(s) is placed in just such a way that targeting him is really difficult. Though I never actually took any damage from him, it was still a bit frustrating trying to figure out how to progress here through the revenent's hail of rockets. I thought it was a neat trick I haven't seen used like this in a while.

[Nine Inch Heels]

MAP03: Survey Centre

So, this is a potentially painful map for pistol starters, but even when playing continuously, you may fnd yourself with no armour for what feels like 2/3rds of the map. There is some outdoor area goodness to be had here, with snipers galore as well. Exiting the building exposes you to a mix of imps, revs, hitscanners, souls and demons. While the outdoor sections can be done easily by approaching them the nice'n'slow way, trying to clear them fast can be quite a task to perform.

I think a green armour a little earlier and some more pickups in the form of secrets later on would have helped the pacing of the map, without making it a lot easier. Speaking of difficulty, this was the first map that I felt I needed to actually be somewhat careful, which is mostly due to the lethalty of the revenants along with no armour, or some scattered chaingunners.

This map made for a nice change of pace, too bad there were no secrets here. I'm sure the map would have allowed for 2 or 3 nice secrets, just to motivate the player to look for something, however arbitrary it may be. Still I am looking forward to the next maps this set has to offer.

3.5 / 5 (-0.5 because no secrets)

[Steve D]

Map03 -- I simply hated this one. Distant Revvie snipers with tons of Lost Souls, are you kidding me? This is a recipe for rocket suicide -- when you finally get the rockets -- and before that, and even after, it's a camp-fest.

Continuers may like this kind of thing more than pistoliers. For me this is both anti-fun and negative fun. It's a valid approach, and does indeed harken back to the '90s in some ways, and as I complained about when playing BTSX E2, enough with all the ledge snipers. "Incidental combat" doesn't have to be "turret combat". To be fair, BTSX E2 was, for the most part, less snipey than this map.

Better players than me will have less hassle, but I found this map endlessly frustrating. This is not the hammer I was hoping to get brained with. I died 4 times because I lack the patience for this sort of thing and once I get bored, I run out and suffer the deaths of reckless stupidity. I once got taken out by a single Revvie rocket when I was at 79% health, but no armor. Might as well have been a Cyb rocket. ;D

I'm holding Getsu personally responsible for letting this map happen. ;)

On the visual front, this map is an advance over the previous ones, with very nice outdoor areas and many tasty design features. I just wish I enjoyed it more.

BTW, I also ended up 1 monster short of 100%, because of a Pinky Demon that didn't teleport in.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP03 Survey Centre

While the indoors can be cramped at times, especially when opening the way to the outside, the outside, as usual, is the exact opposite. Fucking hell with the snipers, especially on UV, and somehow lost souls managed to be annoying for once in my game. It really teaches you to prioritize the major annoyances; anyone close, you take out first, and then the hitscanners. The next cave to go through leads through to another sniper-filled outdoors section before another indoor trek. And then more caves, and you sort of either forget about the whole thing while killing enemies or you run out of ammo at some point. And then it all wraps around to the first outdoor area and you can exit and such.

uh oh, FOUND A BUG! Apparently linedef 2166 is a W1 instead of an WR, so a demon never teleports in. Only noticable on UV, since the two demons only appear on that difficulty.

Oh, and I tested this on ITYTD just so you know, so the combat in most levels was pretty much alright apart from not having the key weapon in MAP13 and MAP19 being rather harsh on ammo starvation. That's what I remember at least. This is honestly my first time playing this on UV.

[Seele00TextOnly]

Map 03

I enjoyed the combat in this map. Instead of corner camping or anything, I found myself charging into areas full of well positioned monsters that put me in a real bind. Deciding which monsters had to be picked off first was essential and sometimes took several tries, as one might best have to dart through an area and then go back for combat as they saw fit. Since I'm a completionist i made sure to kill everything aside from that Pinky that doesn't teleport. The map layout was pretty cool and I found myself a bit disappointed that it ended as abruptly as it did. Turning the corner past the red bars and seeing the exit just felt a bit underwhelming.

[baja blast rd.]

map03

This map is a good example of what I call "prickly gameplay". Not a fan. At least if I were to stick around and kill everything. Once you get outside you can run to the exit without a lot of resistance. That's a good thing -- most prickly maps don't allow this so easily. The cave has one of those fodder warp-ins that happen at only one destination. These always amuse me for some reason. Funny thing happened in my first playthrough where I killed like three monsters, and then basically left because nothing was warping in, and then about five more monsters warped in.

Today's video is in the world's most prestigious speedrunning category. Yes it's exactly what you think it will be.

[Steve D]

Getsu Fune said:

MAP03 Survey Centre
Oh, and I tested this on ITYTD just so you know, so the combat in most levels was pretty much alright apart from not having the key weapon in MAP13 and MAP19 being rather harsh on ammo starvation. That's what I remember at least. This is honestly my first time playing this on UV.

Okay, the estimable Getsu is hereby granted a reprieve on the basis that he did not test UV. All charges are dropped. ;)

[Steve D]

rdwpa said:

map03
Today's video is in the world's most prestigious speedrunning category. Yes it's exactly what you think it will be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHIF8bfAZGE

Wait, I never thought you could commit actual seppuku and call it "Good at Doom!" I thought it had to be an accident because a Lost Soul or Pinky suddenly appears as you fire. Isn't that in the bylaws somewhere? :D

[Benjogami]

MAP03: Survey Centre

Pretty embarrassing FDA, but that's life! Also I guess I'll be making some saves in this playthrough. ;)

I really liked this one. It's long and linear, but most of the areas are open enough for interesting choices to made, and for surprises to happen. I particularly enjoyed when a chaingunner snuck up on me from all the way out of the base on the other side of the outdoor area to kill me while I was fussing over the stupid turret rev. That's the kind of thing that would be strictly against the rules in a wad like Bloodstain, for example, but I like it when that can happen.

"Survey Centre" sounds like a nondescript building downtown where you'd go to fill out some forms, though. It was more exciting than that.

[Salt-Man Z]

I forgot to mention it in my post, but in those open areas in MAP03, I think the imps gave me more trouble than the hitscanners or revenants. Every time I ventured out into the open it was just an oncoming wall of imp fireballs.

[KBlaney]

Continuous, Hurt Me Plenty, zDoom with basic settings

Map 1: A short and straightforward map to get things started here. Nothing all that crazy, of course, but this does appear to draw a bit from Doom1's design method of “if you can see outside you can go there” but it takes it to the next level of that: “if you can see outside you can explore outside”.

Map 2: A cool winding map with a nice effect at the beginning to make it feel like the game is taking place in a cohesive world. This is lacking in Doom sometimes so it is nice to see the effort made here. This map also sets up a nice effect for the end as you enter into a room with a big gap in the middle of it, want to cross because that's where your attention is drawn and then loop around the level to finish the progress. This same motivation was done a lot in Halflife and so is a great feature here.

Map 3: At the beginning of the base section of this map I was really starting to think that this WAD is showing its age (somehow I assumed it was an older WAD) by the more simple detailing. Oops... I'm an idiot. Plenty of detailing in the valleys here (and the WAD is only a few months old). Seeing how this has evolved so far I can only imagine how these levels will progress into increasingly detailed maps... I hope. Also around here is where I think about going back and starting on UV, but let's hold off on that for a second playthrough.

[Steve D]

Seele00TextOnly said:

Map 03

I enjoyed the combat in this map. Instead of corner camping or anything, I found myself charging into areas full of well positioned monsters that put me in a real bind.

This reminds me of the great BTSX E2 Camping vs Rambo debate in which we both participated, and still on the same sides. ;) That sucker eventually got its own thread. I reckon I'll leave it as a different strokes thing, because the approach is valid so it's a like or not-like thing. And you're right, those enemies were exceptionally well-placed. Props to Foodles for that.

Which reminds me . . .

@Salt-Man Z - Yeah, it's remarkable how a relatively small number of Imps controlled those fire lanes so well. Part of it is the slow projectiles. You dash in one direction, back out, and get a fireball upside your head that was fired yesterday from Toledo. I can't tell you how many times that happened to me. :D

[Spectre01]

All of that is well and good, if you didn't have 100 or less health to work with. I never died on map03 or found it to be difficult, but the low HP combined with Doom's RNG damage mechanics still make it annoying. And since I played ahead a bit, I noticed the author just loves denying basic armour, or hiding it in secrets which is not a design decision I agree with at all.

[Aquanet]

MAP03: Survey Centre

I've played this three times so far, two HMP continuous followed by a UV pistol start. Only the latter was really challenging, and it gave me more reason to jump into the nukage to go after islands with ammo and health. The lost souls kinda suck, but there is the option in the first open area to pull back to the nearest lookout spot with protective bars. I appreciate having revenants that are out in the relative open and easier to tag with rockets, even if the areas they appear in become a little repetitive. The transitions from indoor to outdoor to indoor to caves to back outside to indoor kept the level fresh.

Switching to UV continuous. The difference in monster counts for map03 was just too great.

[Salt-Man Z]

MAP04: Venom
23:58 | 100% Everything

Well, that was certainly a step up! I actually thought I'd forgo saves for once, and then after only narrowly avoiding death by yellow key chaingunner ambush I decided, no, let's play it safe. Didn't actually need the saves, but it was a close thing a couple of times. Weird level that's basically two halves of a base divided by an underground nukage lake. I accidentally slipped into said lake right off the bat (off the chaingunner platform) leading to some well-needed health, but also skipping a short section that I would only come back to after clearing everything else out. That section was the final manc and knight in a rather superfluous-seeming room. I lost a bunch of health there, too, but since it was a death exit anyway it didn't end up mattering. Nice detailing again, decent combat that keeps one on one's toes, yet still allows for the stealthy, snipe-y approach I often favor. I do agree more armor would be nice, or at least some earlier; I found the blue armor secret after beating everything else, and with the death exit, what's the point?

[Spectre01]

Warning, incoming salt!

Map 04: Venom

Alright, I'm gonna push the phat elephant out of the room first. This map is ass on Pistol Start, and I mean complete ass. Why the author didn't include an early SSG in a map that's packed with Cacos, Hell Knights and Mancs is beyond me. Oh yeah, and there's once again no armour until you lower the bridge towards the latter half of the level. Great... There is a Rocket Launcher but it's a secret that requires you to jump into toxic shit and explore what may or may not be a secret. All while you still have no armour and a bunch of crap outside, including Revenants, eager to shoot you. Now if you grab that son of a bitch early, you're probably gonna have more fun. I got it after lowering the bridge after cursing the lack of an RL, despite having collected 19 rockets. So yeah, I went around using the regular shotgun to kill dozens of demons that take 3 or more rockets to kill. Was it hard? No. Was it fun? Nope. Tedious and annoying? You bet! Shieeet, Bloodstain was exquisitely calibrated for Pistol Start play compared to this, despite no mention from the author. Oh, and that quad Chaingunner reveal after you ride the lift up from the slime is pure RNG Mickey Mouse Shit. Depending on how the AI is feeling you can easily die there or lose half your measly HP as the lift hits the top. I feel like I was trolled into voting for this instead of the timeless masterpiece that is AV.

Let's talk about the actual map. It's a base with some tech and a bunch of nukage, similar to map02 but larger. The bridge looks nice and there's a surprise portal with a death exit that apparently takes you to heck. Only the sky texture is still the same so it doesn't really feel like you drastically changed locations. Will probably play continuous from this point on since "beatable" does not mean "intended" or "fun and balanced" here. Also, the damn thing took me over 20 minutes like the Salty fellow above so that didn't help either.

[Alfonzo]

SteveD said:

Wait, I never thought you could commit actual seppuku and call it "Good at Doom!" I thought it had to be an accident because a Lost Soul or Pinky suddenly appears as you fire. Isn't that in the bylaws somewhere? :D

https://www.doomworld.com/vb/post/1252354

rdwpa's run is illegal. Didn't gib! :)

[baja blast rd.]

Alfonzo said:

https://www.doomworld.com/vb/post/1252354

rdwpa's run is illegal. Didn't gib! :)

10 minutes of idiocy down the drain for nothing.

[baja blast rd.]

SteveD said:

Wait, I never thought you could commit actual seppuku and call it "Good at Doom!" I thought it had to be an accident because a Lost Soul or Pinky suddenly appears as you fire. Isn't that in the bylaws somewhere? :D

I believe you are right. From the rules (which is in serious need of an editing):

The Holy Laws of Competitive Doom: Book 3, Volume 8 said:

And Sheb said to Caleb, "a humorous self-implosive heavy military ordinance moment cannot be classified as a 'Good at Doom' (henceforth G.a.D) unless it arises through an accidental act of sheer folly, including but not limited to (a) firing contemporaneously with a monster's repositioning of its (X, Y) coordinates in such a way that the missile implodes with sufficient proximity to the player object to cause a significant reduction in the player entity's liveliness-tracking metric; (b) pressing the key or mouse button bound to 'fire' at the moment in time that the player object's own Z coordinates lower (e.g., by falling) temporally concurrent with the extreme explosive expulsion of the ordinance into an ordinance-blocking surface now aligned with the player object, causing the ordinance, which would ordinarily eject harmless, to explode at point-blank range."

[sudo459]

rileymartin said:

This map is ass on Pistol Start, and I mean complete ass.

After your scathing review of this map, I decided to try a pistol start, since I'm doing continuous. I didn't remember too much of the map as a I played, and I didn't end up getting the RL.

All I have to say is, I agree, it was tedious slogging through all those monsters. I feel like adding the SSG isn't the only route Foodles could have gone. If there were more instances to setup infighting between the beefier monsters, I could see the dominance of the shotgun and chaingun, but really there weren't. The beginning has you plinking at two arachnotrons, one at a time, and a good few pinkies with the just the shotgun, and it doesn't get much better from there.

[grahf]

Map 04 Venom: Here you have to start to question whether this megawad is built for pistol starts. You get a shotgun very quickly but have almost no ammo to deal with an arachnotron and revenant just outside your spawn. Initially you'll be very, very dry on ammo unless you find a secret teleporter in the nukage - which nets you an RL with a fair amount of ammo. But this tele launches you into a fairly difficult trap with chaingunners on every angle. I wasn't too happy about it, it felt cheap that early in the level with virtually no resources to fight back.

The map continues on and I can only describe it as a somewhat homely level that is quite maze-like. There are several somewhat empty dead-end areas where I did not find a secret (but I took almost no time to look). One of the final challenges is the blue key ambush, which unleashes 4 or 5 hell knights in a small cramped corridor. Not a huge problem, except the room that you fight them in has small windows that frustratingly impede your movement as you dodge a variety of green hellfire blasts. It wasn't that hard but it felt absolutely terrible.

So far the first four maps of Estranged have left me pretty cold both from an aethetic and gameplay perspective. Hopefully things start picking up in Hell - which it appears starts on map 05 just after a death exit. Again, with an early death exit like this I'm really thinking the megawad is meant for continuous play.

[baja blast rd.]

map04

I liked this. The mid-tier monsters were mostly well paced, appearing in groups of two or three at small numbers separated by intermediary batches of low-tier monsters. I'd say there were a few setups with one mid-tier too many -- for example the symmetric cacos before the BK (no need for any at all, really), or the arachnotrons at the start (the first one is enough), but not so bad. The (monster-blocked!) revs are my favorite; I rushed into close range and fought them there, because why not. On the whole, the map is generous with bullets, which cut through the mid-tiers slightly faster than the single shotgun.

I didn't find the RL secret so my favorite encounter was probably the blue key hell knight showdown. By the time they had advanced all the way down the hallway, three were still alive! Luckily they were near death, but it was mildly tense. The caged insets in the walls were also something of a red herring: I expected hitscanners or something, and in fact I battled the HKs up close until I realized nothing was there. A good touch, intended or not.

Withholding the green armor seems to be a recurring thing, as are forced light dips into nukage. I think I'd prefer a mapset give me the green armor early but cut down on the health enough to offset that. I don't like red screens. I do like the dips into nukage though, slight time pressure.

Another recurring thing: the withholding of the SSG. I've noticed a tendency among certain players -- the same who vehemently shit on slaughtermaps and archviles whenever they can (hmmmmmmmmm) -- to call the SSG 'overpowered'. I think one general principle is "If your map would be more fun with the SSG, don't withhold it solely to avoid 'the repetitiveness of always using the SSG'." (That's a reason I've seen given.) Another more extreme version of that, which is often more useful as a diagnostic, is "If your map would be more fun to IDKFA and BFG spam, rethink thing placements (take out some low-threat monsters, or add the BFG, or something)." (I think it's seriously worth IDKFA-ing and testing this out at least once.) Given the thing placement so far, I do NOT think Foodles is one of those mappers, but the effect of not having the SSG around (presumably for progression's sake) is similar. I enjoyed the map, but less than I would have otherwise. The single shotgun kind of sucks as a weapon in maps that aren't largely zombiemen and shotgun guys. (Barrels count as a rocket, btw ;)) Even imps have too much HP for the SG unless bunched together, because the RNG sometimes decides they can survive one shot.