about freedoom's textures

[raymoohawk]

i was going to wait to bring this up until i was done with my monster sprites, but seeing how voros is pushing towards updating the freedoom maps i think i should bring it up before too much effort gets done on that front

i really think freedoom would benefit from including a sort of alternate texture set that is completly different from the stock one.

as an example it could contain stuff like these atractive rugs made by abbuw



or espi's alternative startan textures



or even something wacky like this



not to mention the many textures that jmickle has kindly donated but have not been added yet

so basically it would work like this:

all the stock textures needed for doom / doom 2 compatabilty would still be included, but mappers would be encoraged to avoid using them in the campaign (except for the liquids of course) so as to give freedoom its own feel by favoring new textures a la BTSX or AAliens

and yes i realize that means doing more stuff, but if other teams can do it, so can we

[Gez]

raymoohawk said:

all the stock textures needed for doom / doom 2 compatabilty would still be included, but mappers would be encoraged to avoid using them in the campaign (except for the liquids of course)

Using different liquids and switches would perfectly be possible by keeping the target for Boom level and providing ANIMATED and SWITCHES lumps.

[Jon]

Right from the start we never restricted mappers to the doom replacement textures. My MAP01 (or E1M1 or C1M1) has some custom textures in iirc, as do (or did others). Which is to say, it's a good idea and compatible with Freedoom's vision.

I'm not sure about restricting mappers from using the vanilla textures at all, that seems a bit drastic.

And I'd like to see the story nailed down before we made any further pushes to get more contributions.

[Xindage]

the only thing of us need to be carefull whit new textures and flat (for now of i know) is freedm, he is strick vanilla a escess of data may cause crash (and remenber freedm has target to be compatible whit every iwad (doom1&2, final doom, TNT And plutonia) so the freedm is actually a bit big Iwad by itself adding much stuff may result in R.I.P.

NOTE: Pwads that add custon textures not cause ouverload if the iwad is already full of textures, because when a pwad is loaded only the custon data of textures is loaded in memory, but i'm not sure if the same counts to flats, pwads that need deutex may still crash, or not too.

About FDM1&2 if that discussion about making that vanilla be canceled we can make both whit a endless (not really endless) texture and flats since memory is not poblem at boom, and making both every iwad vanilla compatible is not really needed, we have freedm to target this main point, try AV or hell revealed on freedm, its work fine...

[Jon]

Protox said:

the only thing of us need to be carefull whit new textures and flat (for now of i know) is freedm, he is strick vanilla a escess of data may cause crash (and remenber freedm has target to be compatible whit every iwad (doom1&2, final doom, TNT And plutonia) so the freedm is actually a bit big Iwad by itself adding much stuff may result in R.I.P.

NOTE: Pwads that add custon textures not cause ouverload if the iwad is already full of textures, because when a pwad is loaded only the custon data of textures is loaded in memory, but i'm not sure if the same counts to flats, pwads that need deutex may still crash, or not too.

You're right that we should stay within vanilla limits for the number of textures in the FreeDM IWAD, as that is (and should remain) vanilla compatible IMHO. However, those limits are pretty high I think...

The FreeDM IWAD need not contain custom patches or textures from the rest of the Freedoom project if they are not used.

[Voros]

Hold on raymoohawk. Are you saying that the textures required for PWAD compatibility (all the Doom replacements) will stay present in the IWAD and at the same time, NEW textures will also be present (that won't conflict with the Doom replacement ones like STARTAN) and you want more mappers using those textures more in maps?

That's actually a nice idea. It'll make Freedoom's campaign look very much different from Doom.
But by doing so, the size of the IWADs will be increasing at an immense rate.

Maybe when the project has enough... Integrity, some decision can be made on this? Cause frankly, I don't think it is a good idea ATM.

Unless you have/know where there are a bunch of new textures available for Freedoom. And then there's adding it to Freedoom: How? What names should given to the textures? And then there's editing buildcfg.txt, so that Deutex will build the IWADs with the textures. But will they work in game? I don't know.

But nonetheless, it's a neat idea.

[axdoomer]

Let's make it bloated and huge with textures that will be used only a few times because they won't have a style that matches with most of the maps. If we reach the 4096 lumps limit and crash vanilla, that will be even better.

[Gez]

axdoom1 said:

Let's make it bloated and huge with textures that will be used only a few times because they won't have a style that matches with most of the maps. If we reach the 4096 lumps limit and crash vanilla, that will be even better.

I say this without sarcasm: yes, that'd be a good plan.

[Wereknight]

raymoohawk said:

i really think freedoom would benefit from including a sort of alternate texture set that is completly different from the stock one.

Ummm... You talk about CC4tex for Freedoom as I can see.

Sounds good, but, there need to re-do a lot of stuff, still. Like those lost souls, knight-barons... some other stuff. Even texture that still look like doom ones.

[MrFlibble]

From what happened (or rather, didn't happen) to the Aquatex texture set, I got the impression that the major factor for the inclusion of new/extra textures is the willingness of mappers to use them.

A while ago I wondered if it would be a good idea to hold a mapping contest with the aim of creating an episode/map set entirely made of Aquatex assets (as an experiment). I guess if the mappers started using the new textures it would pave the way for an expanded texture set and/or a (near) complete replacement of textures used in the actual levels with new, unique ones as raymoohawk and Sodaholic have suggested.

[Xindage]

a sub aquatic theme sounds perfect to a freedoom episode, and it can ever scape from original doom 1 theme (Tech - Corrupted tech - Hell - depth of hell) and make new unique set of theme(s), but if the owner of it allow...

[MrFlibble]

jmickle66666666 gave explicit permission to use all the textures from the Aquatex set in Freedoom:

jmickle66666666 said:

Yeap, i mentioned in my reply that i'm happy for all of the textures to be used in freedoom

edit: just to clarify, all the textures are made entirely from scratch, no edits of IWAD resources or similar.

[Catoptromancy]

We also need updated TNT and Plutonia textures, probably. Most or maybe all of those new textures from first post would fit nicely as TNT replacements.

I think it is a good time to look over the TNT/Plutonia textures for a remaking/replacing. There are quite a few TNT textures that are simple public domain Egypt murals. These murals could be custom made to fit a freedoom theme. TNT has a vast amount of crates. These can easily be made into various sized tech or wood themed textures, that can still scale as the replacement crates. TNT also has several animated textures that can be used. I think my original/terrible placeholders are still there.

Doing a good remake of the Final Doom textures will give mappers a nicely sized set of good textures to work with, without adding any bloat at all. Whenever I browse the texures with a mapper, I skip over those awful crates and other placeholders. These should be good so people will actually use them in a map.

[YukiHerz]

The "Worst Offenders" are probably the rock textures, most of them are just pictures mirrored horizontally at the middle.

If either of these two small sheets are useful for anything feel free to take them, i made them from scratch or by splicing freedom assets, except for the one with the classy art, which came from the Library of Congress, with several pages suggesting they're Public Domain, yet i can't really find a solid statement in the LoC page.

[axdoomer]

Someone should redo them instead of discussing about the addition of new textures that are only alternatives to the ones that are already there.

Some placeholders must still be replaced: DISASTER, DOGRIG, FENCE4, PSTON2, REDTNT2
Instead of having a beautifully middle-mirrored rock textures, you get a big ugly thing with text written over it.

(https://github.com/freedoom/freedoom/issues/92)

[AxelMoon]

The idea of alternate textures does lead me to a thought about FreeDM now. Perhaps some could be used there to add a bit of variety, as I'm not sure if every map in currently uses "every" possible texture. Maybe replacing a few to add more for a certain theme, or a new theme (ice/snow, temple, swamp, etc) could help bring out much more variety in the theme department. On the downside of that idea though does bring up this. Texture compatibility with oter Doom wads and mods. Then again, I am curious. What iwad do people use mainly anyway, freedoom2 or freedm?

[uhbooh]

axdoom1 said:

Some placeholders must still be replaced: DISASTER, DOGRIG, FENCE4, PSTON2, REDTNT2
Instead of having a beautifully middle-mirrored rock textures, you get a big ugly thing with text written over it.

Here's a DISASTER patch I made with the old font

http://www.mediafire.com/view/c9kiv5tuwjxx1vy/DISASTER.GIF

[axdoomer]

uhbooh said:

Here's a DISASTER patch I made with the old font

http://www.mediafire.com/view/c9kiv5tuwjxx1vy/DISASTER.GIF

Cool, thanks. You can post it here:

axdoom1 said:

(https://github.com/freedoom/freedoom/issues/92)

Someone will eventually add it to the project.

[Voros]

uhbooh said:

Here's a DISASTER patch I made with the old font

http://www.mediafire.com/view/c9kiv5tuwjxx1vy/DISASTER.GIF

Alright.

1-have you ever contributed to Freedoom?

2-what's your real name?

3-what's your email?

4-do you play Doom online? If so what's your server name?

5-do you have a webpage dedicated to you (FB, ModDB, etc)?

Thanks.

[uhbooh]

Voros said:

1-have you ever contributed to Freedoom?

Before this, no

2-what's your real name?

Secret

3-what's your email?

Uhbooh2@hotmail.com

4-do you play Doom online? If so what's your server name?

My wifi is too slow for that lol

5-do you have a webpage dedicated to you (FB, ModDB, etc)?

No

[Voros]

Ok. One more thing.

Can add a cyan background to your disaster.gif? DeuTex doesn't like transparency.

In case your wondering, cyan's RGB value is 0 255 255

[axdoomer]

@uhbooh You also need to agree to the fact that your image is going to be placed under the BSD license.

You don't need to provide #2, your username will do the job.

#4 and #5 are bullshit.

[Blastfrog]

I really do think we should generally avoid using the current texture set in the maps and go with an all new one with its own distinct style. Using the current texture set makes Freedoom feel like a knockoff and less of its own game.

The current set still ought to be kept and maintained for PWAD compatibility, and I suppose it wouldn't be bad to use them sparingly among the new texture set.

As for IWAD bloat, I don't think it's that big of a concern. The maps are the largest set of data, and I can imagine that problem will go away when the maps are vanillified and replaced with entirely different ones.

I think a good portion of the levels should be cut, they're just not any good. The easiest source for high quality maps is existing PWADs. Why not bite the bullet and start gathering maps of that nature, as well as permission from their authors?

[MrFlibble]

Blastfrog said:

I think a good portion of the levels should be cut, they're just not any good. The easiest source for high quality maps is existing PWADs. Why not bite the bullet and start gathering maps of that nature, as well as permission from their authors?

Shadow1013 already assembled a vanilla Episode 1 that way, I'm guessing it could be readily used (E1M6 needs a small fix though, there's a room with wrong floor height resulting in a HOM trap).

[Blastfrog]

I was thinking it'd be neat if we got permission to use E1M4b and E1M8b. Granted, they're limit removing and would need to be reworked to be within limits, but still, they're good maps.

[uhbooh]

Voros said:

Ok. One more thing.

Can add a cyan background to your disaster.gif? DeuTex doesn't like transparency.

In case your wondering, cyan's RGB value is 0 255 255

I uploaded the fixed version, it's the same link as before. I agree to the license thing as well.

Oh and axdoom you forgot one placeholder texture, POISON. Here's a replacement I patched together real quick.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/7q2zc0s2lls40a2/POISON.GIF

[axdoomer]

It's better to use our own maps. Using maps from other pwads will suck because it won't make the Freedoom campaign interesting. It won't be new levels like there is in FreeDM. The reason to play FreeDM is because it has its own original maps.

[Voros]

MrFlibble said:

From what happened (or rather, didn't happen) to the Aquatex texture set, I got the impression that the major factor for the inclusion of new/extra textures is the willingness of mappers to use them.

A while ago I wondered if it would be a good idea to hold a mapping contest with the aim of creating an episode/map set entirely made of Aquatex assets (as an experiment). I guess if the mappers started using the new textures it would pave the way for an expanded texture set and/or a (near) complete replacement of textures used in the actual levels with new, unique ones as raymoohawk and Sodaholic have suggested.

That's a good idea.

https://www.doomworld.com/vb/post/1666566

So far, it looks like it can work.

[MrFlibble]

Cool, thanks for making it happen!

[Voros]

Bumping this as it is related to expanding Freedoom textures

I recently discovered raymoohawk's textures: http://download2108.mediafire.com/ag59a6w58wbg/7akq7ox8ekxe9wx/RHTP1.rar

I think its amazing. Maybe the textures depicting demon faces on stone can be replaced with the ones in this pack? Its original and doesn't feel like a clone of the IWAD textures.

Such as mwall4_2, mwall4_1, mwall5_1, rw7_3, rw48_2/3/4, sw1skull, wall30_2/3/4

Kudos to raymoohawk for that red skull with eyes. Very creepy.