Disjunction, small mapset project - RELEASED [17.2.2017], on /idgames

[UglyStru]

I've been playing Doom for over 15 years; streaming it for over 4 years, and this is the first WAD I'm considering throwing in the towel for. Before I let off some steam, let me just explain a few things. I have successfully max ran MAP01 of Chillax, which is a WAD that is actually made to be ridiculously unfair. Fast forward to a little bit where I have subscribers telling me I need to play MAP30 of Scythe: cool, done it. Skillsaw's entire library of creations: awesome, had fun. Some random map projects: dope, they look great. Then I start Disjunction and get hooked because of a nostalgic soundtrack and wide open spaces. Awesome, let's do it.

Map01 was a Map01, nothing crazy but definitely set a good foundation. Map02 was a huge increase in difficulty as well as Map03. Then the fun begins and I realize what mess I got myself into. I got tossed MAP04 of Disjunction. Pretty map with strict as fuck gameplay but definitely doable. We get a breather with MAP05 and then MAP06 is just a tedious maze. Alright fine. MAP07 comes around and it's fantastic; super fun to play, super balanced, and definitely nice to look at. And then we have Foundry. MAP08....

 

....and my god I cannot put into words what this has done to me. In 4 years of streaming Doom, MAP08 of Disjunction is really making me lean towards giving up on this project. So much that I've actually considered retiring from the game and streaming altogether. MAP08 is the most unfair, unbalanced, most frustrating disaster and makes me ever regret saying anything bad about any other map I've stepped into.

 

• 450+ monsters, 75% of them being Revenants and Archviles. I got over the fact that it was just dull and boring to look at.
• Pros: it has cool lift effect things in the walls sometimes; 
• Cons: literally everything else.
• No matter how you play the map, you just reach a point where you're stuck because there just isn't jack shit for ammo, health, or armor.
• You're given a RL at the start, but because it's disjunction.wad, that really means "here's this thing you need to make sure you don't use until the very end because i'm not giving you any ammo for it".
• There's no logical way to actually go about killing anything because you won't have the health or ammo for the next group of shit you need to fuck up.
• You need to fight hoards of revenants in small rooms with no room to evade.
• You need to fight archviles in wide open areas or tight mazes with nothing but a chainsaw and a stimpack laying around, meanwhile the little shits are running around reviving mancubi and revenants and everything else you just spent all your scarce resources cleaning up.

 

You were truly going for MAP11 of Sunder, weren't you? If I weren't streaming this, then I could just say "okay fuck this, move on". It wouldn't be so annoying if I didn't agree to play this blind and upload it to YouTube, but this is the first WAD that I'm having to leave unfinished and probably just contemplate wiping clean and forgetting I ever put the time into trying to finish this. RIP to my Dooming :insert sad frog:

 

in b4 git gud

Edited May 23, 2017 by stru

[elderdragonbrasil]

7 minutes ago, stru said:

@stru Man, it is David, from Elder Dragon. Don't need to stop your channel for this bad Wad. Just go to another, or play Map 8 in HMP or easier difficulty if needed. Even show an impossible Wad is a excellent review for people. Disjunction really needs to balance better.

 

[Aquanet]

Well you might also want to steer clear of map09.

 

Different maps are tough and neigh on unbeatable to different people. I squeaked through 08 but haven't beaten 09.

[UglyStru]

I hear MAP10's got Foundry beat, so no idea what the hell I'm gonna do there. I just watched ViperKiller's run of MAP08 and saw that he just had to punch out everything and hope for the best. I'll probably end up completing it, but just uploading it in segments because there's no way in fucking hell I'm gonna be able to run that deathless. I'm good but I'm no j4rio. 

[Nevander]

When I play really hard maps that I know I can't handle deathless or in one go, I just save a lot. Save after every single tough encounter and you'll get through the map eventually. IMO saving and loading is something the game has always allowed you to do from day one back in 1993 and I don't see any shame whatsoever in saving as much as you like.

[dew]

1 hour ago, stru said:

I hear MAP10's got Foundry beat, so no idea what the hell I'm gonna do there.

Yeah, map10 is the hardest one. You should start saving tbh. I know about the nosaves mindset and how it hones your skills and how satisfying it feels to complete, which can all be true to a degree. These last few maps though, they definitely channel some Sunlust wickedness and the challenge after trap after challenge after trap are all geared to kill you if you don't know the correct dance moves. Repeating the entire map just to get another hopeful pop at the unfair scenario that blindsided you last? Why not leave that for the second playthrough when you know where the boogiemen jump from? Playstyle approaches should be as varied as the map genres themselves, imo.

[Phade102]

You're a new mapper, floatrand. so its understandable you might get some stuff a bit off. Your maps are beautiful, absolutely drop dead gorgeous especially for a new mapper. But you're lacking a fair bit on the balance department. map08 is impossible for the majority of players, and the next few maps aren't any easier. Most of this comes from the fact that you simply dont provide enough ammo to deal with the enemies. No one, and I mean NO ONE but a true sadist enjoys punching out hundreds of revenants, its boring as hell and next to impossible.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Phade102

[baja blast rd.]

Phade102, this isn't the first time you've said something like this. You're wrong. There is an audience for very hard gameplay, and if that isn't your thing you have options: play on HNTR or HMP if those are implemented (if HNTR is still 'unbalanced', you may or may not have a complaint), or play something else entirely. A map being "impossible for the majority of players" isn't a valid criticism, unless that was an (implied) aim in the first place, for example if it was being designed for a mass-appeal community project. One important skill in giving feedback is being able to recognize when a map is just not for you. Because if a map is far out of your depth, you can't actually give meaningful feedback. 

 

edit: Playing this right now. Up to the cyber + manc part. There's enough ammo as long as you use the melee weapons on things. (There's a berserk too.) That cyber can also be used to kill the mancs.

edit 2: Just over halfway in by monstercount and this is all pretty tame. I have 100 shells, 30+ rockets, and 300+ bullets, and I haven't found a single secret. Will finish at my leisure. 

 

Edited May 14, 2017 by rdwpa

[Phade102]

7 hours ago, rdwpa said:

Phade102, this isn't the first time you've said something like this. You're wrong. There is an audience for very hard gameplay, and if that isn't your thing you have options: play on HNTR or HMP if those are implemented (if HNTR is still 'unbalanced', you may or may not have a complaint), or play something else entirely. A map being "impossible for the majority of players" isn't a valid criticism, unless that was an (implied) aim in the first place, for example if it was being designed for a mass-appeal community project. One important skill in giving feedback is being able to recognize when a map is just not for you. Because if a map is far out of your depth, you can't actually give meaningful feedback. 

 

edit: Playing this right now. Up to the cyber + manc part. There's enough ammo as long as you use the melee weapons on things. (There's a berserk too.) That cyber can also be used to kill the mancs.

edit 2: Just over halfway in by monstercount and this is all pretty tame. I have 100 shells, 30+ rockets, and 300+ bullets, and I haven't found a single secret. Will finish at my leisure. 

 

I have my opinions on slaughtermaps, that wont change. while I understand your points, the fact is that ammo can sometimes be difficult in slaughter maps, its only natural. Balancing slaughtermaps is imo one of the harder jobs, because you dont want to give the player too much ammo, you want them to have JUST enough.

[floatRand]

Thanks for feedback, really appreciated. Sad to hear my maps have had this effect on you.

If you are not having fun, abandon the playthrough, seriously. Please dom't torture yourself - it's not gonna get better.

 

Yeah, map08 is not good. While I think final encounter and YK fight work well, it is otherwise a slogfest.

It is part of bigger problem of just making more and more massive maps, which is exhausting mapping-wise and is difficult/time-consuming to playtest alone. 

 

Incidentally map07 was last I made, intentionally short since I was so tired of making long maps, and is style I probably pursue if I am gonna make maps again. 

Edited May 15, 2017 by floatRand

[TheV1perK1ller]

I must say that on the whole, 'Disjunction' is a very impressive map-set in its own right. Especially considering that this is floatRand's debut into the Doom mapping scene. The architecture and detailing in his maps is astounding, some of which kind of remind me of 'Sunlust'. Truly brilliant in that regard.

 

I agree though, that the gameplay could be balanced somewhat better in terms of encounters, especially in the latter half. But because no-one but floatRand play-tested these maps, my guess is that it would've been hard to judge how 'balanced' the maps should've been.

 

Saying this, don't hesitate to ask fellow 'Doomers' to help test your maps out, I am sure they would be willing to help you. I for one hope you continue to do large maps such as these.

[rehelekretep]

wahey TheV1perK1ller has joined Doomworld!

have you ever considered joining the DSDA and submitting some of your max-runs as demo files? i have been very impressed by some of your runs such as on Bloodstain's later maps - you are definitely up there in the top % for skill

[TheV1perK1ller]

2 minutes ago, rehelekretep said:

wahey TheV1perK1ller has joined Doomworld!

have you ever considered joining the DSDA and submitting some of your max-runs as demo files? i have been very impressed by some of your runs such as on Bloodstain's later maps - you are definitely up there in the top % for skill

Hahaha, thanks!

 

As for submitting runs to the DSDA, it's something I never really gave any thought into. My videos are more for helping getting people maps out there - promoting them, in a way. I might submit some demos in the future, though.

 

Right now I've actually been trying to create my first (decent) map, but that's a whole other story :)

[dew]

1 hour ago, TheV1perK1ller said:

But because no-one but floatRand play-tested these maps, my guess is that it would've been hard to judge how 'balanced' the maps should've been.

The first page of this thread suggests otherwise. ;)

 

As for map08.. the sloggier parts are actually the easier ones, so while trimming them down would help focusing on the harder bits like the vile/revenant crusher fight and the final area, the map would still contain "punching out hundreds of revenants", heh.

[Phade102]

7 hours ago, floatRand said:

Thanks for feedback, really appreciated. Sad to hear my maps have had this effect on you.

If you are not having fun, abandon the playthrough, seriously. Please dom't torture yourself - it's not gonna get better.

 

Yeah, map08 is not good. While I think final encounter and YK fight work well, it is otherwise a slogfest.

It is part of bigger problem of just making more and more massive maps, which is exhausting mapping-wise and is difficult/time-consuming to playtest alone. 

 

Incidentally map07 was last I made, intentionally short since I was so tired of making long maps, and is style I probably pursue if I am gonna make maps again. 

Honestly, you should try rebalancing map08 a bit. You make absolutely beautiful maps, for a first time map maker this is beautiful. but you can easily improve.

[baja blast rd.]

You really should stop playing the 'new mapper' card. Plenty of experienced mappers have released (acclaimed) maps that are much harder (and more 'unbalanced') than this one. 

[Phade102]

4 hours ago, rdwpa said:

You really should stop playing the 'new mapper' card. Plenty of experienced mappers have released (acclaimed) maps that are much harder (and more 'unbalanced') than this one. 

They absolutely have. But theres no reason we cant give them opinions and suggestions on how to change, surely? I absolutely ADORE Aqua Regis (Map04 of this wad) but i I could find possible ways to improve, would it not be a good idea to suggest it? I mean Float is under absolutely no pressure to listen to the suggestions, but there is nothing wrong with making them.

[GarrettChan]

Since getting influenced by videos about this WAD, I finally started trying some of the maps of the this WAD, legitimately. Some of my opinions may be only feelings by only watching, but I'll definitely try out other maps.

 

I have to say, the architectures are really impressive in this WAD. The first feeling is like Sunder and Sunlust. They are highly differentiated, so I really like any of those individual designs from map to map, definitely 10/10 for the beautiful looking. I won't point out this in the following since I love every single map in looking.

 

Difficulty wise, since I only play WAD in UV, I think it's kind of like a "basic version" of Sunder. To be honest, I think I can't beat Sunder even with S/L, but I should be able to beat Disjunction with S/L. Some of the difficulty comes from limited supplies and weaponry. I think SSG is something you should offer more than this. Also, limited health and armor could be a design style, but sometimes it doesn't feel good since there are a lot of RNG in Doom.

 

I don't know whether it's OK to post YouTube videos here. If it's bad, please tell me.

Here is my runs:

 

Map08: Foundry

It took me like 20+ attempts to finish this. It's funny that I didn't take any damage from the Revenants in the yellow key room, and I also didn't take any damage from the Arch-viles and Revenants in the other route. My planning really worked out in these two places.

 

Ammo and health are limited in this map. I have to use Chaingun a lot in order to save other precious ammo because I'm not good at punching. For me, punching is something like trading health with ammo, but there isn't enough health either. That's my solution to this. Good job in controlling the cells... but I think maybe one more BFG shot could be better. I probably wasted all the BFG shots I got because I was nervous over there.

 

It may be a little bit frustrated from time to time, but it still feels OK overall.

 

Map09: Electron

This one is more fun to play compared to Map08 since ammo is more plentiful here. It took me like 3 tries to finish after practice. I don't know the blue key room fight (from 12:40) is a design flaw or intention. It seems I shouldn't take that room like this, but this is definitely the safest way to do so.

 

This map involves a little bit of luck since the yellow key room and some teleporters can totally screw the player. Other than this, this map is very enjoyable.

[elderdragonbrasil]

9 hours ago, rdwpa said:

You really should stop playing the 'new mapper' card. Plenty of experienced mappers have released (acclaimed) maps that are much harder (and more 'unbalanced') than this one. 

The truth for every game is for every hardcore player, you'll have 100 good players and 100.000 casual players. You can make maps only for hardcore players, but you can't expect to make the other 100.100 like it. I don't think the mapper meant to do a map only for few people, that is not I see on this topic. The streamers are hating it, casual players are avoiding. The only way to enjoy is IDDQD for the win!

 

Anyway, it is easy problem to solve. Just put ammo and that's it. 

I've tested Disjunction in HMP, still not balanced. 

[baja blast rd.]

That is fair, but I'm not a fan of relaying feedback that equates to 'this is not my cup of tea' or 'I found this too hard' as 'objective mapping advice'. There is a difference between 'The gameplay is too hard for my liking' / 'I ran out of ammo here and am not comfortable punching lots of revenants' and some of the above, more authoritatively stated feedback. I think you should be able to recognize when a map is not your cup of tea, and adjust your feedback accordingly. For example I don't like maps that are all about obscure progression puzzles, so I'm not going to go into a thread and say, "Welcome to the community. This is a very pretty map, but you're a new mapper ... [insert a paragraph or two about why it's 'objectively correct' for progression to be clear enough for most people to catch on to without much thinking].

 

edit: In both cases, the mapper can infer that they 'missed the mark', if that sort of gameplay wasn't what they were going for, but otherwise, the 'objective' advice has the downside of being potentially harmful, if it was but the mapper (or any other similar mapper reading the thread) actually listens to it. 

 

Edited May 16, 2017 by rdwpa

[dew]

Echoing rdwpa, I'd say it's a bit late to start rebalancing entire maps to accomodate for someone who doesn't like it this way. I'd probably feel like something of value got lost if the maps were easier, because I personally enjoy the current balance. If floatRand starts a new project that's aimed at lower difficulty and less shortage/zerk-oriented gameplay, then it's perfectly fine, but maybe play this on ITYTD? It gives you double ammo (and halves damage taken).

 

15 hours ago, GarrettChan said:

I don't know the blue key room fight (from 12:40) is a design flaw or intention. It seems I shouldn't take that room like this, but this is definitely the safest way to do so.

That's how I cheesed it as well. floatRand kept it in despite my report, so I guess no big deal. Blocking spawns is certainly a cheeky trick and if it doesn't break the fight outright but only tilts the balance towards the player a little, it can feel good to outsmart the design, heh.

[GarrettChan]

1 hour ago, dew said:

That's how I cheesed it as well. floatRand kept it in despite my report, so I guess no big deal. Blocking spawns is certainly a cheeky trick and if it doesn't break the fight outright but only tilts the balance towards the player a little, it can feel good to outsmart the design, heh.

 

Are you dewsome in CaptainClever's videos?

 

I discovered that by fighting the first Revenant and keeping him stunned using the Plasma Rifle... I always thought blocking teleporters won't work because the monsters will telefrag you. However, this should happen only by Spawn Cubes, I guess. Otherwise, it's kind of difficult to fight it legitimately just because of those 2 Arch-viles.

[Nevander]

Monsters and items can never telefrag the player, ever. The only thing which can is the spawn cube shot from the boss eye. However, I don't know what happens if (in ACS) you do SpawnSpotForced or SpawnSpotFacingForced since the spawn is forced. I feel like it won't telefrag you but rather the monster will get stuck inside you and you it.

[Keyboard_Doomer]

Being able to be telefragged is a property of MAP30 and you can be telefragged by both a monster and a spawn cube.

 

Conversely, outside of MAP30 you can't get telefragged by either. If a spawn cube lands on you, you will get stuck inside a monster.

[dew]

37 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

Are you dewsome in CaptainClever's videos?

That would be me, yes. We also exchanged comments under one of the episodes on Youtube. If it's a silly variant on dew* under something Doom-related, it's most probably me bypassing my nick being occupied. Capn' thinks it's so obvious he doesn't even bother with renaming me in the channel, heh. Welcome to DW!

[GarrettChan]

3 hours ago, Nevander said:

Monsters and items can never telefrag the player, ever.

Yeah, that's what I've discovered but not sure since I'm using GZDoom all the time. GZDoom has a lot of differences to other ports, so it could be something GZDoom specifically. Now I'm clear. Thanks for the explanation.

 

 

3 hours ago, dew said:

That would be me, yes. We also exchanged comments under one of the episodes on Youtube. If it's a silly variant on dew* under something Doom-related, it's most probably me bypassing my nick being occupied. Capn' thinks it's so obvious he doesn't even bother with renaming me in the channel, heh. Welcome to DW!

Nice to meet you. I guess the comment is talking about MancubOs? I thought that one is silly and no one would ever think that's funny...

 

I always think I saw your name somewhere. Now I realized you play tested Valiant and Ancient Aliens, which happen to be some of my favorite WADs out there.

[Nevander]

3 hours ago, GarrettChan said:

Now I realized you play tested Valiant and Ancient Aliens, which happen to be some of my favorite WADs out there.

Valiant and Ancient Aliens kicks ass. skillsaw kicks ass. Kicking ass kicks ass.

[UglyStru]

MAP10 is truly brutal. It's brutal in a much less frustrating way than MAP08 though since it's designed to be a pure slaughter map. However, I'm stuck as to where to go from the start. Every direction I run is instarip :( I'm sure I could figure it out in due time, but has anyone else run this yet? Those pesky archviles are a real PITA. 

[GarrettChan]

17 minutes ago, stru said:

MAP10 is truly brutal. It's brutal in a much less frustrating way than MAP08 though since it's designed to be a pure slaughter map. However, I'm stuck as to where to go from the start. Every direction I run is instarip :( I'm sure I could figure it out in due time, but has anyone else run this yet? Those pesky archviles are a real PITA. 

I guess the best way is to Arch-vile jump to the platform with 2 Soulspheres and Armors, then you can kill two Arch-viles there. If you want to go in a "legit" way, it may kick you arse...

[Paul977]

19 minutes ago, stru said:

MAP10 is truly brutal. It's brutal in a much less frustrating way than MAP08 though since it's designed to be a pure slaughter map. However, I'm stuck as to where to go from the start. Every direction I run is instarip :( I'm sure I could figure it out in due time, but has anyone else run this yet? Those pesky archviles are a real PITA. 

Check out this FDA made by dew maybe it can help you http://www.mediafire.com/file/yddx8l20df3eycp/dj_rc2_10-11fdas.7z