What's the general consensus on Freedoom?

[7hm]

Voros said:

Freedoom is a community project. Everyone can make maps for it.

Also about the credits file: Freedoom is constantly changed around. So we can't just write who made what. IIRC, there was an old Map09 called Mine HM09 (now its a new map called Datacenter).
When the project is going to release v1.0, THEN you will get a better more accurate credits file.

Lost maps? Yes. They are all in the attic.

There are lots of community projects, almost all of which credit individual authors (or many people if lots of people have to touch a map). Freedoom is like fifteen years old, I'm not holding my breath for it to ever hit an actual 1.0 release.

Anyway that's just something I find really bizarre about FD. It's easier to find out who made Doom 64 maps.

[Voros]

That's because it is constantly changing. We can't pinpoint who made what UNTIL we're certain that it will stay in Freedoom.

Expect a real credits file when its release is v1.0. Until then, its just a list of all contributors to the project.

[7hm]

Voros said:

That's because it is constantly changing. We can't pinpoint who made what UNTIL we're certain that it will stay in Freedoom.

Expect a real credits file when its release is v1.0. Until then, its just a list of all contributors to the project.

It's a weird decision. BTSX eps 1 and 2 aren't at a 1.0 release either, but I still know who made which maps.

You're 15 years in and still can't figure out the names of the maps. The expectation that FreeDoom will ever be released is pretty close to zero for anyone who's paid attention over the last however many years. In December you decided to re-target vanilla compatibility. To quote from that thread:

Captain Ventris said:

Ah, well it's definitely a good sign that the essential tech-level for the project hasn't been nailed down yet. Yep.

It doesn't matter if FreeDoom ever hits "release", it's been perfectly playable for a very long time.

[Voros]

Do you have any idea how many maps were changed for each slot? And it keeps changing.

All the levels have been named (except C3M5, since it's empty). When maps are changed, the name usually changes too. Just someone gotta give that change first.

Is BTSX still under development? You choose which mapslot you want to make/mapmaker is chosen from the beginning, of BTSX, right? Freedoom is just "winging it". Either people stand up, or stay down, it's their choice. It's upto us to make Freedoom better.

Yes, Freedoom is in a playable state, but it's still a mess. Trust me.

[raymoohawk]

voros i know you mean well, but dont defend freedoom, if we want to change the consensus than it should be done trough improving the project, not by responding to criticisms that are oftenlly legitimate.

how about you go trough linguica's tutorial series so you can learn to make maps for us. Or help me with the spriting, it may seem challenging, but i am a pretty unskilled artist myself and i've been able to put together a lot of sprites anyway

[Voros]

I would be mapping now, if my PC didn't die months ago. Buying a new one is not something i want to ask for. Personal reasons. And those DOS editors like EdMap, DETH, etc are hard to use to make some good maps.

Spriting is something I most likely won't be able to do. I can barely understand how to do drawing from different angles. I never had Photoshop, and i know people who do, they say it's damn hard. I heard Blender can also be used. I had Blender once, but the interface was so intimidating. Although I would like to try someday.

Was I defending Freedoom this whole time? Heh, that's what happens when you constantly load up Freedoom instead Doom.

[Wereknight]

Voros said:

Spriting is something I most likely won't be able to do. I can barely understand how to do drawing from different angles. I never had Photoshop, and i know people who do, they say it's damn hard.

It is. And yep, Blender is kinda useful for this kind of stuff.
I approve it as a man who did some sprites to Freedoom and currenrly doing new ones again.

[Voros]

Anyways, did you get your answer OP?

[7hm]

Voros said:

Do you have any idea how many maps were changed for each slot? And it keeps changing.

I really fail to see how this means you can't credit authors for a mapset that is publicly available (and then when you change the maps, you change the credits file... it's not rocket science). I honestly wonder if the reason they're not credited is because you're not sure who made each map without going back through commits. The thread in wads and mods where you ask z0k if he made map 13 certainly gives me that impression.

[Voros]

I was only a three year old baby when Freedoom was first released. And my interest for it only arose around this year.

If the credits file were to be updated the way you want it, than the seniors like fraggle and Jon can help, as they have been with Freedoom since 2001.

But forget that. Are seriously going to bother about the credits file, when the project itself need more attention? Why are we even talking about the credits file? Its an extremely low priority.

[Gez]

Fonze said:

Considering the name, I see no logical reason why FreeDoom isn't 100% solely made for the purpose Jaws described: a free-to-distribute iWad replacement for people too cheap to buy a 5 dollar game with infinite replay value found in pWads. That said, removing vanilla compat is a puzzling shot in the foot, at least in my opinion.

Why?

Do you want to run Freedoom with the vanilla doom.exe? Then you must have the vanilla doom.exe, which means you already have Doom, which means you don't need a free IWAD replacement for just playing maps. Lack of vanilla compatibility is irrelevant.

Furthermore, if you just want to play PWAD maps like a cheapskate, then you're not going to be playing the actual Freedoom levels. Lack of vanilla compatibility is irrelevant again.

Now what if you don't have Doom and/or you want to actually play Freedoom for its level. Then you can download a source port. Lack of vanilla compatibility is irrelevant.

Vanilla compatibility has nothing to bring to Freedoom except needless hassles and restrictions. And you can do such cool things with Boom effects that it'd be a shame not to take advantage of them.

[scifista42]

Gez said:

Do you want to run Freedoom with the vanilla doom.exe? Then you must have the vanilla doom.exe, which means you already have Doom, which means you don't need a free IWAD replacement for just playing maps.

I thought that vanilla doom.exe was (and is) basically free and freely distributable, and just the IWAD wasn't (and isn't).

[Da Werecat]

The shareware is v1.9, so it shouldn't be a problem.

[VGamingJunkie]

If it's taking advantage of source port functions in its levels, though, then you can't say it's entirely a replacement of the Original WAD. It's more like an evolved substitute.

[fraggle]

Fonze said:

That said, removing vanilla compat is a puzzling shot in the foot, at least in my opinion.

Freedoom has never been vanilla compatible, though it's a goal that's now being worked towards.

If this seems weird to some people then consider that Freedoom as a project was started years before Chocolate Doom came on the scene, or the vanilla resurgence we now see. Mapping for vanilla is quite tedious as there are a ton of limits to conform to; at the time, Boom-compatible seemed like a nice common target supported by almost all source ports.

[Gez]

scifista42 said:

I thought that vanilla doom.exe was (and is) basically free and freely distributable, and just the IWAD wasn't (and isn't).

It's not. Unless you mean the one bundled with the shareware. Then yes but you still have some restriction on redistributing the shareware.

Besides, vanilla is for DOS and nearly nobody uses that anymore. People have to play it through DOSBox or similar emulator, or they have to use... a source port. Why not a Boom-compatible one? Choco is the only popular source port that isn't Boom-compatible.

MetroidJunkie said:

If it's taking advantage of source port functions in its levels, though, then you can't say it's entirely a replacement of the Original WAD. It's more like an evolved substitute.

A substitute is the same thing as a replacement. And why would you need the replacement to have the same design limitations? To me it's the move to vanilla compatibility that is Freedoom shooting itself in the foot. Instead of having something new, something different, it's just going to be a cheap ersatz (here, another synonym).

[7hm]

fraggle said:

Freedoom has never been vanilla compatible, though it's a goal that's now being worked towards.

If this seems weird to some people then consider that Freedoom as a project was started years before Chocolate Doom came on the scene, or the vanilla resurgence we now see. Mapping for vanilla is quite tedious as there are a ton of limits to conform to; at the time, Boom-compatible seemed like a nice common target supported by almost all source ports.

I think it seems weird because of this:

andrewj said:

Here is my analysis of vanilla-compatibility of current Freedoom maps, based purely on looking at the maps in visplane explorer (with doors opened).

Phase 1:

C1M2 : minor work
C1M4 : minor work
C1M1 : major work of outdoor area
C1M5 : major work in several areas
C1M6 : major work of outdoor area, plus another area
C1M7 : major work in SW and SE areas
C2M6 : minor work
C2M2 : major work in two areas
C2M5 : major work in two areas (e.g. outdoor area in SE)
C2M9 : major work in two areas
C3M4 : minor work
C3M6 : probably minor work
C3M7 : major work in one area
C3M9 : major work in northern area, minor/medium in other areas
E4M1 : major work in large SW area
E4M7 : major work in approx two areas

Phase 2:

MAP02 : minor/medium work
MAP03 : minor work in one area
MAP05 : minor work
MAP04 : major work
MAP06 : medium/major work in northern outdoor area
MAP07 : major work in central area
MAP08 : major work in several areas
MAP10 : very major work, perhaps not salvagable
MAP11 : minor work
MAP16 : medium work in NE area
MAP17 : minor work for visplanes, major for drawsegs
MAP18 : major work in central area, also in N
MAP12 : very major work, perhaps not salvagable
MAP13 : very major work, perhaps not salvagable
MAP15 : very major work, perhaps not salvagable
MAP19 : left side of map is off the scales!
MAP20 : very major work, perhaps not salvagable
MAP23 : minor work
MAP29 : minor work for visplanes, major for drawsegs
MAP31 : major work in several areas
MAP22 : major work in several areas, perhaps not salvagable
MAP24 : very major work, perhaps not salvagable
MAP25 : very major work, perhaps not salvagable
MAP28 : very major work, perhaps not salvagable

As soon as you get close to maybe having something that's complete, you decide that you need to change 40 maps, rather than just wrapping up what you've got, and starting a second version or something that can achieve the vanilla compatible goals.

In reality what will happen is that the project will never be completed. This is also (I'm guessing) why it's hard to find quality map contributions, because they know that if they put their stuff in FreeDoom, it will never actually be released in any kind of final product (and hey, they also won't be credited for it, which again, is very odd). The best contributions you'll end up getting are going to be things like Double Impact: wads that are already released elsewhere that the authors are ok having in FD.

[Da Werecat]

I'm under the impression that the vanilla trend is fading. The project being left without mappers is a valid concern.

[Aquanet]

Freedom has some really cool assets. Even if you're not one of the few people using it as a free iwad subsitute, it's an always available reskin of Doom with a bit more sci-fi flavoring. After shooting a million imps, those creepy serpents start to look appealing.

[chungy]

Voros: Please do not speak under the presumption of authority of the Freedoom project. Only a few people have that authority, and you are not one of them. Thanks.

Da Werecat said:

I'm under the impression that the vanilla trend is fading. The project being left without mappers is a valid concern.

The project has been without staying mappers for a long time, with the notable exception of Protox. Worrying about vanilla reducing the number of mappers just isn't a real concern at the time.

Gez said:

Choco is the only popular source port that isn't Boom-compatible.

You forgot about Doomsday ;)

[Da Werecat]

chungy said:

The project has been without staying mappers for a long time, with the notable exception of Protox. Worrying about vanilla reducing the number of mappers just isn't a real concern at the time.

Because there's nothing to reduce? :)

[Fonze]

Yes, I see about the vanilla compat. Bloodshedder was nice enough to drop the knowledge that it was originally Boom compat on me last night. So then the shot in the foot was in changing to a "lower" format. I was under the impression that its target format had changed more than a couple times, being both upgraded and downgraded. I do wish the team the best of luck as they continue to work on this.

[Technician]

Marcaek said:

It took too long to deliver something relevant to the majority of the Doom userbase due to a lack of clear direction

QFT. Couldn't have said it better, myself.

[Xaser]

Apologies for the continued tangent, but re:vanillification, as a dude involved in DTWiD, BTSX, and a bunch of other big vanilla projects, the process of bringing a limit-breaking map under control is a hell I would not wish upon anyone. Best of luck.

[Csonicgo]

My opinion is that it's a crazy quilt of resources with no real sense of direction. If anyone is getting their first impression of the Doom community from "apt-get install doom" on a Debian Linux installation, I would be quite embarrassed.

I also think that scenario never happens.

Making the project vanilla compatible (including limits) further destroyed any sort of support the project could have had. On top of that, if anyone submits anything, it has the potential to be replaced/modified/butchered at any time, or replaced with a resource that (to the author of that previous resource) is clearly worse than the last, discouraging him from ever submitting anything again. Who has the authority to make these decisions? What if I don't agree with the chosen leadership? Do contributors get a voice in the matter? The ways those questions are answered can affect who is willing to chip in.

And then we have the issues of resources: Textures make the map. If resources are changed, it can change the entire look of that map.

I have been in projects where such actions (butchering someone's map) led to a member leaving the project entirely. It's very hard for someone to just give their work away to a project without any control over how it's used.

Honestly, the only way I can think of to "fix" this is to recruit the talented people we do have, assign them to certain sections, and only work on that section at one time. I would do it in this order:
1. Textures/Flats
2. Sprites/Sounds
3. Weapons/Sounds
4. Maps
5. Anything else

Why would Textures matter first? Well, it's the meat of a texture-mapped game. If those don't look right, the entire thing feels "off". Textures/flats would be one stage, build on it, test it in pwads, if everyone agrees with the results, freeze it completely. Then work on the next stage. Make sprites that match the texture style. Yes, I'm serious - Look at the Doom sprites. They don't "dither" and they don't use flat colors. the colors slowly step down in brightness as each pixel region overlaps the other - they rarely mix, if ever. having shaded sprites (that imply depth) in a world without shaded textures (which implies no depth) looks like total wank. If you don't want shading, they should all follow that pattern. Then, give the monsters sounds. Simple enough, right?

And then work down from there.

Given how long that the project has taken, It's probably not a bad idea, as time isn't a factor anymore anyway.

[VGamingJunkie]

Gez said:

A substitute is the same thing as a replacement. And why would you need the replacement to have the same design limitations? To me it's the move to vanilla compatibility that is Freedoom shooting itself in the foot. Instead of having something new, something different, it's just going to be a cheap ersatz (here, another synonym).

Why not? The whole point of Free Doom is to provide an alternative to the original to either play its Vanilla inspired levels or to use with mods and levels. It being Vanilla Compatible means it's more or less the same as what it's claiming to be a replacement of. I mean, if you want enhanced versions of the Vanilla levels, isn't that what Knee Deep in ZDoom is for?

[Du Mhan Yhu]

Jimp Argon said:

While I do not hate it.... I could never substitute it for the real thing. I'd say it's okay at best. If there were weapon mods and actual maps being made for it on the reg. it would be better.

This right here.

[Gez]

Except that before it was weirdly decided to go vanilla, Freedoom was moving towards developing its own identity and got rid of copycat levels and remixed songs for that reason (and also because of their debatable legality, what with obviously being derivative works).

[Graf Zahl]

Sorry to be harsh but this 'move to vanilla' is the most stupid thing that could possibly have been done. A large portion of the maps will have to be butchered, taking lots of work off other tasks that need to be done to complete this.

I have to agree with Csonicgo and a few others - what the project really needs is a clear sense of artistic direction. Right now neither the graphics nor the maps show any of that - it's a random hodgepodge of different styles withount any coherence - just one more community megawad that's interesting to play 32 maps from a pistol start. These always bored me to death - this one is not different in any way.

Freedoom has been in the works for what - 15 years? And it's still not finished. And now some people with a backwards-minded attitude are hijacking it and trying to reinvent the wheel again, putting work into things that really are low priority, considering the overall state of it.

[Doomkid]

Gez said:

Instead of having something new, something different, it's just going to be a cheap ersatz (here, another synonym).

It's good to know the entire community doesn't agree that anything vanilla is automatically a "cheap knockoff". That's gotta be one of the most closed minded statements about Doom mapping I've ever heard. With that said, if most of the existing maps are currently Boom compatible, it makes enough sense to keep it that way.