Specific Things in Doom that annoy you

[Nine Inch Heels]

Most recently there was a case where I had to say, "too much hitscan". Don't get me wrong, I can live with hitscans in general. For what it's worth, it's what's always been an integral part of Doom. And I'm not even talking about things like in Speed of doom "cliffside siege" where there's a SMM taking swings at you from across the map (which you always know is there from the get-go, so you can play with that in mind).

[Rant]It's the concept of having numerous shotgunners and chaingunners in short succession, also using them in ambushes (Yeah, damn you plutonia M01 for that shit) while providing no armour and virtually no health. Have fun rolling the dice during a first attempt, and better make sure you remember where those hitscans were, so it doesn't happen twice, at least not in the same spot. Trap cost you 60% health? Whatever, better luck next time. And that's where the second attempt comes in: You know where these gunners are, and play accordingly, A.K.A peek and pew-pew, spending time on like 8 hitscanners, where 4 would have done the job just as fine.

 

Step 1: Provide no armour
Step 2: Place cabinets

Step 3: Put chaingunners in those
Step 4: Tripwire in a spot with no cover
Step 5: ???

Step 6: Pelt![/Rant]

[42PercentHealth]

12 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Most recently there was a case where I had to say, "too much hitscan". Don't get me wrong, I can live with hitscans in general. For what it's worth, it's what's always been an integral part of Doom. And I'm not even talking about things like in Speed of doom "cliffside siege" where there's a SMM taking swings at you from across the map (which you always know is there from the get-go, so you can play with that in mind).

[Rant]It's the concept of having numerous shotgunners and chaingunners in short succession, also using them in ambushes (Yeah, damn you plutonia M01 for that shit) while providing no armour and virtually no health. Have fun rolling the dice during a first attempt, and better make sure you remember where those hitscans were, so it doesn't happen twice, at least not in the same spot. Trap cost you 60% health? Whatever, better luck next time. And that's where the second attempt comes in: You know where these gunners are, and play accordingly, A.K.A peek and pew-pew, spending time on like 8 hitscanners, where 4 would have done the job just as fine.

I know that feel... when mappers overuse hitscanners to create (for all practical purposes) mandatory damage. In other words, if you don't take damage, it's just because you got lucky. It has always been my opinion that maps should be designed in such a way that a no-damage run is theoretically possible (via TAS, if nothing else), no matter how hard it might be to achieve. If damage is unavoidable, then Doom ceases to be Doom, and the mapper has stooped to the level of regenerating-health games like CoD.

 

Placing hitscanners where there is barely sufficient cover, or cover that is threatened by fireball lobbing monsters, makes for interesting gameplay; placing them where there is no cover at all is just unfair.

 

Just out of curiosity, what WAD are you playing that has you angry about hitscanners?

[Nine Inch Heels]

4 minutes ago, 42PercentHealth said:

Just out of curiosity, what WAD are you playing that has you angry about hitscanners?

Chillax...

To be fair, Bloodstain does the same shit Plutonia and its ripoffs did... Slows gameplay to a stupid crawl...

Edited April 6, 2017 by Nine Inch Heels

[42PercentHealth]

15 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Chillax...

<jaw drops>

 

I have that slightly ashamed feeling of having been beaten by a girl, 'cuz I gave up after my 49736th death in map 1. Are you actually playing through all the maps "legit," or are you using any cheats?

[Nine Inch Heels]

5 minutes ago, 42PercentHealth said:

<jaw drops>

Some of the maps require proper routing, it's not like you can kill all the things, because there's never really enough ammo to do so, really. But quite a few of the chillax maps become relatively "reasonable", if you play them with items respawning. Of course, if you want to make an entry to that grindfest a bit more welcoming, might as well run them with infinite ammo for a start. Doesn't make them necessarily "easy" either. Gotta bash your head against something once in a while, right?

Edited April 6, 2017 by Nine Inch Heels

[42PercentHealth]

5 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Some of the maps require proper routing, it's not like you can kill all the things, because there's never really enough ammo to do so, really. But quite a few of the chillax maps become relatively "reasonable", if you play them with items respawning. Of course, if you want to make an entry to that grindfest a bit more welcoming, might as well run them with infinite ammo for a start. Doesn't make them necessarily "easy" either. Gotta bash your head against something once in a while, right?

Now that I look back, I think I tried Chillax when I was a relatively new Doomer, had just completed Scythe 2 and HR2, and thought I was UNSTOPPABLE!! So I looked for the hardest WAD out there, and I downloaded it, and I was STOPPED!!

 

I played the Oku map with infinite ammo throughout and occasional iddqd, so I could probably give Chillax another whirl. Thanks for the suggestions, and good luck with the WAD! ;-)

[ShoDemo]

1) It is annoying when I miss my hard earned BFG shot and there is a cyberdemon I was trying to shoot nearby. That wouldn't have been a problem a few months ago that I saved every 3 minutes or less and could easily reload, but I recently decided to save once in the start of the level. First time I am doing this is with Scythe2 (I think it is going to hurt)!

2) I agree with the caco blocking the view.

3) The next one is dumb, but here it goes. I hate not seeing a pinky, which probably ran to me from the other end of the map, came exactly behind me and I then hear its attacking sound out of the blue. They have never damaged me in this scenario, but I jumped from my chair 2 or 3 times when it happened.

4) Extremely high platforms with hitscanners at the top. You know. The ones that you have to back off from, so that you can shoot the enemy, which can only be done easily with the shotgun (That weapon has range and power at the same time. I LOVE IT!!!).

5) Being trapped from the start of the level not knowing where you should run, because on the one hand you have an arch-vile and on the other some cacos, barons, revenants, e.t.c.. The only map I know that did this is 23 in Scythe 1 (Anger). I was really "angry", while playing it. But I beat it some tries later, so I forgot about it. 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by ShotgunDemolition

[42PercentHealth]

2 minutes ago, ShotgunDemolition said:

1) It is annoying when I miss my hard earned BFG shot and there is a cyberdemon I was trying to shoot nearby. That wouldn't have been a problem a few months ago that I saved every 3 minutes or less and could easily reload, but I recently decided to save once in the start of the level. First time I am doing this is with Scythe2 (I think it is going to hurt)!

Man, you are in for a crazy ride with Scythe 2... it's the BEST!! (IMHO)

 

3 minutes ago, ShotgunDemolition said:

5) Being trapped from the start of the level not knowing where you should run, because on the one hand you have an arch-vile and on the other some cacos, barons, revenants, e.t.c.. The only map I know that did this is 23 in Scythe 1 (Anger). I was really "angry", while playing it. But I beat it some tries later, so I forgot about it.

I don't really like it when a level starts out with baddies descending upon me, but I don't know if it's something I'd add to "specific things in Doom that annoy [me]."

[ShoDemo]

11 hours ago, 42PercentHealth said:

Man, you are in for a crazy ride with Scythe 2... it's the BEST!! (IMHO)

Yey, let's go!!! :)

11 hours ago, 42PercentHealth said:

I don't really like it when a level starts out with baddies descending upon me, but I don't know if it's something I'd add to "specific things in Doom that annoy [me]."

I see. That is more level design than anything else. Still it is challenging, but I hate it, if it is unfair challenge like in that particular map.

Also, should I check that Chillax wad or skip it? Until now, I have learned that it mostly consists of maps ripped out from other wads, it is a <<Bring your daughter to the slaughter>> map and I was never a whole lot into slaghtermaps.

[42PercentHealth]

5 hours ago, ShotgunDemolition said:

Also, should I check that Chillax wad or skip it? Until now, I have learned that it mostly consists of maps ripped out from other wads, it is a <<Bring your daughter to the slaughter>> map and I was never a whole lot into slaghtermaps.

If you don't like slaughtermaps, probably not. If you don't like unfair maps, probably not. If you don't like ammo starvation, probably not.

 

On the other hand, if you would like to be the first person in the world to complete a particular map without saves or cheats, Chillax is full of maps that no one has ever beaten! @Azuruish has videos of tool-assisted speedruns on YouTube if you're curious what the maps are about.

[Nine Inch Heels]

7 hours ago, ShotgunDemolition said:

Also, should I check that Chillax wad or skip it? Until now, I have learned that it mostly consists of maps ripped out from other wads, it is a <<Bring your daughter to the slaughter>> map and I was never a whole lot into slaghtermaps.

The first 13 or so maps are modifications of "phmlspd.wad", for example. Which is a set of slaughtermaps made by doomworld's very own member "phml". The monster counts in that original wad have a range from several hundreds to multiple thousands. In case you feel like newgothicmvmt2 is a bit too hard on you, phmlspd is a nice place to start and see if you like the taste of slaughtermaps. Other than that there's of course Sunlust, Sunder and toilet of the gods if you want. So there you go... Have a look... But yeah, chillax is a lot "nicer" if you co-op it. ;-)

Edited April 7, 2017 by Nine Inch Heels

[42PercentHealth]

3 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

phmlspd is a nice place to start and see if you like the taste of slaughtermaps.

Cool, I'll give it a try! I've downloaded the others you mentioned, but haven't played them yet. I was initially "turned on" to slaughter maps by Fire & Ice, Twi-Lite Massacre, and The End is Nigh. Then I was "turned off" again by Deus Vult and Slaughterfest 2012 (the first half of which was actually pretty good, I thought). TBQH, I've never been able to put my finger on exactly what makes the difference between a slaughtermap I like and one I dislike. Maybe it's just the difficulty? Availability of resources? Grindy-ness? Combination of all these? They are something I'd like to "git gud" at, but finding the right place to start sometimes seems like a bit of a chore...

[baja blast rd.]

Would also recommend Archi's Rush as a good starting point. 

 

50 minutes ago, 42PercentHealth said:

Cool, I'll give it a try! I've downloaded the others you mentioned, but haven't played them yet. I was initially "turned on" to slaughter maps by Fire & Ice, Twi-Lite Massacre, and The End is Nigh. Then I was "turned off" again by Deus Vult and Slaughterfest 2012 (the first half of which was actually pretty good, I thought). TBQH, I've never been able to put my finger on exactly what makes the difference between a slaughtermap I like and one I dislike. Maybe it's just the difficulty? Availability of resources? Grindy-ness? Combination of all these? They are something I'd like to "git gud" at, but finding the right place to start sometimes seems like a bit of a chore...

 

Yeah the former trio is more accessible. DV has parts that highly reward foreknowledge; SF2012 can be a mixed bag, and it has a few actual jokemaps (although don't tell me map15 isn't awesome :D).   

 

As far as getting good at slaughtermaps, watch a lot of UV-Max demos of them, particularly of the longer ones, which have a lot of survival-oriented play by necessity (although you can still learn a lot from the shorter map runs if you can differentiate between survival-oriented tactics and the reckless stuff). The essential movement patterns and various other metagamey techniques are all out there, if you're willing to watch and study a few dozen hours of footage. :)

Edited April 7, 2017 by rdwpa

[Nine Inch Heels]

35 minutes ago, 42PercentHealth said:

Maybe it's just the difficulty? Availability of resources? Grindy-ness? Combination of all these? They are something I'd like to "git gud" at, but finding the right place to start sometimes seems like a bit of a chore...

I think this is a good opportunity to tie our chit-chat about slaughtermaps to this thread's actual topic.

So, the thing that makes a good slaughtermap for me is that I am urged to move around, and use the moving pieces on the field according to my needs. Things like "crowd shaping" come to mind in that regard. A bad slaughermap would have the "hell revealed 2 syndrome" where you're pumping rockets down corridors where you've funneled things together. That's when slaughtermaps are done wrong, because it's dull gameplay.

Looking back at phmlspd, I liked map 12 and 13 for example, though map 13 is quite heavy handed in terms of monster count. For me, the 12th map has the characteristics of how slaughter can be done in a pleasant way: You have options, and you can take different approaches, see what works best, see what's the easy thing to do, and see what's the more difficult but faster thing to do. Granted the 12th map is not too difficult, the set as a whole isn't too hard either. But it plays nice.

For me personally, Doom is a lot about enjoying the mobility that I am given. The moment a map turns into a corridor-shooter and offers no other options, I'm usually let down quite a bit, because it's the same deal as with the hitscans: It slows gameplay to a crawl at times, and that's when the feeling of progression is getting lost. This however is where Sunlust, or Sunder come in: There's actual gameplay. Sunlust in particular manages to create difficult and interesting scenarios with surprisingly low monster counts at times, eventhough said scenario can still be classified as slaughter-ish. It's the kind of stuff that makes you think about strategies. Coming back to chillax, that is something I play for the sake of the excercise, really. That's not to say that all the maps are god-awful, uber-grindy and boring, they're rip-offs of interesting maps as well after all.

"HP-Doors" come to mind. Clutter a passage up with lots of HP, and have the player chew through it, is probably one of the things that really put me off. Granted you kinda need "blockers" here and there if you want to create specific scenarios that involve a door with teeth, but the question is if the "thing-use" works with the overall flow. Nobody wants to have an "HP-door" of 30 barons to clear, after mopping up things in an area which may have taken 4-5 minutes already.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Nine Inch Heels

[Killer5]

Second rdwpa's recommendation of Rush as a starting point for people who want to get into slaughter. Here are some recommendations of slaughter maps for someone wanting to get into the genre:

 

Sunder pretty much taught me to play the game but it can be a mixed bag if you dont already like long maps. Since Sunder doesn't really start until map07 (large maps, big fights) try map07 first. If you like map07 then try map12. Map08 is easier but can be quite a slog I think so I find it hard to recommend for someone who has 'I dont know if I like grindy maps' in a post (but it is very pretty).

 

If you were to try Toilet Of The Gods I would recommend maps 02 and 03. Toilet Of The Gods is chock full of platforming just fyi. I made a demo for map02 just for kicks a while ago and didn't have plans to do anything with it outside of people requesting it. If you want to see a straightforward whatev run of map02 which doesn't use the tas route here it is: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/it1baudyizsl5rs/AAA1q20-2kBu3AoQRPojTVuua?dl=0

 

Try rdwpa's Eden.

 

Sunlust falls in this grey area where it is hard for me to classify it as slaughter so it is hard for me to recommend something from it strictly for someone wanting to get into slaughter. Maps 18, 24, 28, and 30 come to mind I guess.

 

Combat Shock maps 02 and 03.

 

Darkwave24 is a fun fast paced slaughter map with different gameplay than pretty much all the above.

 

Scythe2 map28.

 

Slaughterfest 2012 maps 05 and 20 are no brainer recommendations from me.

 

I'm not going to continue naming a thousand different wads :P.

[ShoDemo]

4 hours ago, 42PercentHealth said:

If you don't like slaughtermaps, probably not. If you don't like unfair maps, probably not. If you don't like ammo starvation, probably not.

 

On the other hand, if you would like to be the first person in the world to complete a particular map without saves or cheats, Chillax is full of maps that no one has ever beaten! @Azuruish has videos of tool-assisted speedruns on YouTube if you're curious what the maps are about.

 

 I guess I shall start playing slaughtermaps just out of curiosity. I didn't like that much Fire and Ice to tell you the truth, but I loved Fear (I think it counts as a slaughtermap with its 700 demons). It was really fun going circles with my BFG, while being chased by revenants and Cyberdemons and dodging rockets. I have to say, I hate ammo starvation, but I am more practical now than I was like 3 years ago. I always treat my ammo like Smeagol does with the ring (MY PREEEEECIOUUUUUS). About unfair maps, depends on how unfair they are, but I generally don't rage. Instead, if I die at a moment where 500 cheaply placed enemies know I am there, I can feel my heart pumping fast, I start breathing again at normal pace and either I quit peacefully or I replay. 

 

Also, NO ONE has ever beaten some of its maps?????? I generally don't have that large of an ego, but now I want to play the maps just for that. It is a challenge I will try and it won't matter to me if I beat the levels or not. (are we talking no saving at all here?)

 

Finally, I have Sunlust in my wads folder from when I first posted in Doomworld for recommended wads and will be downloading Sunder, Toilet of Gods (that name is killing me), phmlspd, Deus Vult and the others.

 

P.S.: I will update if I manage to beat any maps from Chillax (highly doubt it).  :)

[Nine Inch Heels]

10 minutes ago, ShotgunDemolition said:

Also, NO ONE has ever beaten some of its maps?

Some chillax maps have been beaten legit already. No TAS, no cheats, no item respawns, just the maps as they were.

 

No saving, of course. ;-)

Chillax map 03 by Rizera:

 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Nine Inch Heels

[ella guro]

the biggest thing i have problems with is sprawling maps with no real focus, encounters that feel like they just repeat themselves multiple times, several punishing ecounters in a row with no real ebb and flow between sections, and a lack of ideas distinguishing sections. stuff just ends up feeling like every other wad i've played when this happens. it is obviously harder to come up with a coherent idea and stick to it and not bloat it out more than it needs to be... but that is a large part of what being an interesting designer is about to me. i end up, especially after having played so many Doom maps, feeling like that is by far the thing i value the most.

Edited April 7, 2017 by ella guro

[42PercentHealth]

4 minutes ago, ShotgunDemolition said:

Also, NO ONE has ever beaten some of its maps?????? I generally don't have that large of an ego, but now I want to play the maps just for that. It is a challenge I will try and it won't matter to me if I beat the levels or not. (are we talking no saving at all here?)

Yes indeed (if we don't count tool assistance and savegames). Last I knew, @Ancalagon and another one of the highly revered Doomgods were making an effort to UV-Max each of the Chillax maps. They both succeeded with maps 1 and 3, but none of the others (this information is at least a year old, so someone may have completed more since).

 

9 minutes ago, ShotgunDemolition said:

P.S.: I will update if I manage to beat any maps from Chillax (highly doubt it).  :)

You'd be famous! :-D

[ShoDemo]

I just finished the first map from Chillax, but I did not beat it fair and square. What I mean by that is that I saved like 5 times when I wasn't in a major encounter.

 

My personal thoughts:

I got my ass handed to me, until I learned from the first room that monster infighting and Cyberdemons are my friends (too bad the Cyberdemon died after having encountered the revenants and 2 Barons). I replayed some encounters 2 to 10 times and I generally tried having all the enemies focused on me, so that they don't block the small passages where I was passing from. Now that I am starting to calm down, I can say that it was somewhat fun having an adrenaline rush and dodging all those projectiles at the same time. It was a chaotic experience, unlike any other I have ever seen and I think I have learned the map and its tricks, which will make another playthrough of it much easier, although it has to do with luck sometimes (and strategy of course).

 

Will I be playing more Chillax maps? Absolutely!!!  :)

Will I replay the first map without any saves? I will give it my best shot, because I feel kinda guilty (I still don't know what to do with the Hellknights at the end, as I passed them somewhat randomly). 

[Bauul]

I've not played any Chillax maps, but based on that video above, I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks it looks pretty shallow (and not to mention ugly).

 

This kind of map just leaves me cold.  

[42PercentHealth]

1 minute ago, Bauul said:

I've not played any Chillax maps, but based on that video above, I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks it looks pretty shallow (and not to mention ugly).

 

This kind of map just leaves me cold.  

Don't forget, that's one of the "easy" ones... they get better! Of course, if slaughtermaps are not your thing, then you probably won't like the later levels either, and that's fine.

[Nine Inch Heels]

24 minutes ago, Bauul said:

I've not played any Chillax maps, but based on that video above, I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks it looks pretty shallow (and not to mention ugly).

 

This kind of map just leaves me cold.  

That was one of the speedmaps PHML made waaaay back. Like, we're talking several years here, and the idea, afaik, was to make sure that the maps worked properly from a gameplay perspective in the first place. How they look or not is up for debate for sure.

Which brings me to another thing in Doom that I don't like: Intrusive architecture.

It's not "difficult terrain" that I am talking about here, it's when you get stuck on details, which aren't actually meant to be relevant for the combat at hand, but have a negative impact regardless. That'll get minus points from me, because an impassable linedef or things along those lines aren't much to ask for.

[Bauul]

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

That was one of the speedmaps PHML made waaaay back. Like, we're talking several years here, and the idea, afaik, was to make sure that the maps worked properly from a gameplay perspective in the first place. How they look or not is up for debate for sure.

Which brings me to another thing in Doom that I don't like: Intrusive architecture.

It's not "difficult terrain" that I am talking about here, it's when you get stuck on details, which aren't actually meant to be relevant for the combat at hand, but have a negative impact regardless. That'll get minus points from me, because an impassable linedef or things along those lines aren't much to ask for.

That makes a bit more sense then!  I was just surprised by how bland it looked, but if it was 100% designed for gameplay that makes sense.

 

I agree about obtrusive architecture.  I remember when making Quake 3 maps it was entirely common mapping practice to place invisible, impassible shields around any kind of complex architecture the player might get stuck on, but somehow impassible linedefs doing the same job seem to be less common in Doom.

[SaladBadger]

3 hours ago, Bauul said:

I agree about obtrusive architecture.  I remember when making Quake 3 maps it was entirely common mapping practice to place invisible, impassible shields around any kind of complex architecture the player might get stuck on, but somehow impassible linedefs doing the same job seem to be less common in Doom.

In vanilla and a fair amount of source ports, impassible lines are not checked by the wall sliding code, so you interact very weirdly with angled 2s impassible lines (you move along them sort of as if the line was stairs on their sides, and can occasionally get stuck in them) and overall make the problem worse. Its fine in ZDoom, and maybe some of the ports like EE can be tuned to allow sliding on 2s impassable lines, but I don't think its possible to in Boom. At least you don't seem to slide in PRBoom+ under normal circumstances (without any compatflags flipped).

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Play sunlust. At least the maps look good and the fights are less grind fiesta than chillax. If you want to just grind stuff I suggest playing path of exile or diablo.

[Nine Inch Heels]

1 hour ago, Pegg said:

path of exile

I used to play path of faceroll for a while, and it's mind-numbingly boring by now.

[Deleted_Account]

Here's a specific thing that annoys me. Whenever I frag a baddie in front of a computer inlet, their corpse flies onto the edge of it. Looks ridiculous, from now on I add block monster to that line.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Piper Maru

[baja blast rd.]

Really loud death exits. -_- 

 

 

 

[42PercentHealth]

1 minute ago, rdwpa said:

Really loud death exits. -_- 

 

 

 

Only with headphones... otherwise they're good for a minor jumpscare.