Specific Things in Doom that annoy you

[gaspe]

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Why do I have to accept, or even worse accommodate the desires of people who play that stuff, when said people openly admit that they don't care about the respective mapper's ideas, just because...?

You don't, simple. It seems to me that you are overreacting too much over something. I'm all for having the mappers to go with their own vision and also have a "screw the players" attitude, in a good way. Though you can't police how the players will play your wad and trying to do that too much can be counterproductive. I don't see also why people shouldn't be able to use their favourite source ports and settings, they are playing wads in their free time not doing a job. Talking about "being disrespectful" is ridiculous.

[dpJudas]

1 minute ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

So you'd rather cheat instead of turning down the difficulty? Because that's what this looks like to me.

Yes. Because I'm playing an aggressive style of Doom where I advance shoot first and ask questions later. I use freelook and got autoaim disabled, as the aim is half the fun for me. That way of playing is more or less incompatible with certain mappers vision on how they like to play Doom. Now, I'm not saying that my way of playing is better than theirs, but any map that forces me to say sneak around will either have me quit or begin cheating. As much as it is your right as a mapper to create the map to your vision, it is my right as the player to play it any way I find fun (or quit if I don't).

[rehelekretep]

i think that @Nine Inch Heels isnt annoyed per se about those who play maps their own way; but more the ones who proudly state it as if its some sort of accomplishment to break a map or encounter, or who complain about balance because theyre too pig-headed to learn new tricks etc. if it was just people silently free-aiming and jumping around i dont think it would cause an issue :)

so i think that ignorant bad-mouthing is what she is referring to as 'disrespectful'.

Edited December 31, 2017 by rehelekretep

[Lila Feuer]

@Nine Inch Heels TL;DR means too long; didn't read. Although I like to sometimes do a personal take on it with TA;DR - too autistic; don't reply.

[Nine Inch Heels]

1 hour ago, rehelekretep said:

i think that @Nine Inch Heels isnt annoyed per se about those who play maps their own way; but more the ones who proudly state it as if its some sort of accomplishment to break a map or encounter, or who complain about balance because theyre too pig-headed to learn new tricks etc. if it was just people silently free-aiming and jumping around i dont think it would cause an issue :)

so i think that ignorant bad-mouthing is what she is referring to as 'disrespectful'.

The thing is, if someone plays a map, sequence breaks something, and then complains about something not working, or let's say they'd play with brutal doom (which has a reload mechanic), and can't do a certain fight because the reload screws them over, and then call a map shit, unfair, mediocre, overtuned, etc for not having been designed with their preffered way of play in mind, then that's plain bullshit. And sure there's people such as our beloved review king felgro, who give maps bad ratings because they don't run in bloody doomsday for example.

 

The arguments that it's the player's problem if they break something is nothing I buy anymore, because the moment people drop a negative review or mess up a thread with how bad something runs or whatever it's not the player's problem anymore, it's the mapper's problem as well at that point.

[Dragonfly]

Look, your points are good and honestly, I agree with more or less all of them (except like all of the IWADS get broken with free look thanks to rocket jumps (even without actually jumping), not to mention the icon of sin), but you really gotta tone down the angst in the post. Like seriously I want to say "woo yeah, you tell 'em NiH!" Because I agree; But the way you put it forward makes it too easy to want to argue.

 

People are not obligated to play your maps. Yes it is annoying but despite the stance some people have you could be more humble and be thankful that these players are at least giving up their personal spare time to take a look at your map(s). Be thankful, not angry. It seems almost like you're mapping for all the wrong reasons! Enjoy it for yourself, others enjoying your works is a plus, wether it be how you intended or otherwise.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Dragonfly

[yakfak]

You missed messages in The Joy of Mapping

You missed messages in The Joy of Mapping

You missed messages in The Joy of Mapping

You missed messages in The Joy of Mapping

You missed messages in The Joy of Mapping

You missed messages in The Joy of Mapping

You missed messages in The Joy of Mapping

 

edit: I think it's thoroughly OK to play a map in whatever port you like and with whatever options, whatever mods and whatever cheats you wish active, but that's because I think it's thoroughly OK for a mapper to make something as fiendish, confusing or as ideosyncratic as possible and basically you can't have one thing without the other. plus if you're a serious player and you enjoy a map you might find yourself returning to the thing and playing it as god intended - in PrBoom-plus -complevel 9

 

giggle

Edited January 1, 2018 by yakfak

[Tristan]

20 minutes ago, yakfak said:

You missed messages in The Joy of Mapping

Funnily enough most of those are a specific individual ranting about how objectively wrong everyone is.

[Nine Inch Heels]

 

18 hours ago, Dragonfly said:

Like seriously I want to say "woo yeah, you tell 'em NiH!" Because I agree; But the way you put it forward makes it too easy to want to argue.

 

It seems almost like you're mapping for all the wrong reasons! Enjoy it for yourself, others enjoying your works is a plus, wether it be how you intended or otherwise.

The point that one of my maps was being subjected to that kind of mindset is merely the stick that broke the camel's back. And I'm pretty confident that, even if I phrased this in a different manner, some people would have loved to argue anyway. I might be wrong in assuming as much, but it's not like I haven't seen people try to impose their ideas of what mappers whould do how, even before the mapper actually said anything about what their intentions may or may not have been. And it's not exclusively about things like free-aim, even though that kinda stuff was the main focus for the time being. There's also points to be made about pistol starting maps if the set was designed with that in mind, which also tends to get ignored quite a bit, even to the point where some people argue that it doesn't even make a difference (which of course it does, and that difference is a pendulum that can very well swing both ways, depending on the situation). Another case is when people brute force their way through slaughtermaps by way of excessive saving/loading, and then complain that these are tedious, boring, or a waste of time altogether, instead of simply accepting that maybe these maps simply have not been designed in a way that is taylored towards their mindset.

 

It's like people are insisting on eating a soup with a fork, and then complain that the dish is not enjoyable, instead of either using a spoon or eating something that can be enjoyed with a fork, to employ an analogy here.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Eris Falling said:

Funnily enough most of those are a specific individual ranting about how objectively wrong everyone is.

 

That's why:

 

22 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

In the most recent weeks, I have had some "discussions" about the "play as you want mindset", and it's gotten to the point where I seriously need to take some time to put down my thoughts on this, because, even if it didn't affect me because of a map that I made, I never had much love for this kind of "ideology", for lack of a better term, and I think many folks know this by now.

 

Also happy new year everybody. I hope you're all well, healthy and don't suffer from too big a hangover.

[Megalyth]

@Nine Inch Heels I agree with that sentiment. By all means, play however you want to, but don't cry about it if you break something.

[Grain of Salt]

On 31 December 2017 at 0:29 PM, rdwpa said:

So this type of suspense will be lost on a playing approach that doesn't acknowledge "strategy" as a thing in Doom, and spams saves/loads with an eye towards eventually RNjesusing one's way through all of the encounters. 

 

Upsetting!

[Dragonfly]

2 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

It's like people are insisting on eating a soup with a fork, and then complain that the dish is not enjoyable, instead of either using a spoon or eating something that can be enjoyed with a fork, to employ an analogy here.

 

 

As said I fully agree with the majority of your argument, and yes, this being the Doom Community you would have had retaliatory comments regardless of tone, I suppose. :P

 

But yeah, it's honestly not getting worked up over! So to use that same analogy - If you went into a restaurant and saw someone trying to eat soup with a fork you'd either laugh at them or ignore them, right? Just react the same way here, it's their loss if they're not getting the intended experience, you lose nothing since you still had the fun making the map. :)

[Nine Inch Heels]

17 minutes ago, Dragonfly said:

So to use that same analogy - If you went into a restaurant and saw someone trying to eat soup with a fork you'd either laugh at them or ignore them, right?

well, usually that would be my response, unless of course people start yelling at the service, or blame the cook...

[Lila Feuer]

Everyone's going to enjoy what you make differently, it was your creation yes, but when its in the hands of the players, it becomes their experience now.

[Woolie Wool]

I don't think playing those sorts of maps "the correct way" is going to make people who don't like them like them. In fact I would expect that someone who normally savescums like that to get through a slaughtermap and then complains about it is likely to just say "fuck it" after his 13th death and restart if he tried following your advice and play something else. You seem to think that players "gitting gud" is something mappers are owed; it is not. If they don't like your map, they don't like your map. Some people just don't like things that other people like, and like things that other people might not like, and nobody is obligated to play a map in any specific way just because somebody thinks they should.

 

Personally my advice for people who don't like slaughter maps is to play something else. Works for me every time.

Edited January 1, 2018 by Woolie Wool

[rehelekretep]

i still feel like everyone is conflating 'people sometimes dont like things other people do' with 'whining about a map being shit or unfair or crap or broken when they have broken it themselves by using mods or save-scumming into a corner etc.'

@Nine Inch Heels is complaining about the latter, not the former.

[Arctangent]

1 hour ago, rehelekretep said:

i still feel like everyone is conflating 'people sometimes dont like things other people do' with 'whining about a map being shit or unfair or crap or broken when they have broken it themselves by using mods or save-scumming into a corner etc.'

@Nine Inch Heels is complaining about the latter, not the former.

as Dragonfly pointed out, she makes that awfully easy

[Gez]

It's me, I'm the savescummer. I quicksave all the time and quickload for any reason. Even stuff completely frivolous, like a monster dying at a stupid place. Like this baby spider here:

 

Because that's a specific thing in Doom that annoys me: levitating corpses.

[CorianderCastor]

The horizontal auto-aim gets on my nerve sometimes, just need to git gud. On the other hand, I need to be less Good-At-Doom.

[Doom64hunter]

I'm really sick of seeing the Overlord be the final boss to seemingly every recent gzdoom mod.

 

Seriously, out of the 4 mods I played recently that were designed for gzdoom, 3 of them had the Overlord as the final boss.

He's even in mods for other games, such as the AMC TC for Duke 3D. It's really getting old.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Doom64hunter

[Dragonfly]

^ I'm guilty of this one, with Skulldash. It's why in the Expanded edition I made an 'all new' angel boss to try and rectify my sins, heh.

[Doom64hunter]

On 19.1.2018 at 11:36 AM, Dragonfly said:

^ I'm guilty of this one, with Skulldash. It's why in the Expanded edition I made an 'all new' angel boss to try and rectify my sins, heh.

That one was pretty cool though!

Heaven is still a pretty unexplored setting in Doom so it's always cool to see a map like that.

[RenderError]

Nukage that doesn't damage you.

Bonus points if there was nukage that did damage you in earlier levels.

[Lila Feuer]

@RenderError Plutonia is pretty offensive when it comes to that, with nukage that doesn't hurt you in MAP16 but all the sudden is dangerous in MAP17 immediately after.

[Gez]

Nukage that doesn't hurt you, but, in the same level, water that does.

[Summer Deep]

(Thinks) "I've got perfect cover here, the Cyberdemon will never squeeze a rocket through this gap...."

 

You know what happens next.

[scifista42]

Knowing that a rocket is 2/3 as wide as the player may help to estimate which hole it can or can't fit through. Also, every projectile in Doom has a hitbox only 8 map units tall - yes, even the BFG projectile - so they tend to fit through vertically narrow windows more that they'd seem to.

[Roofi]

When the mapper gives you an automap (usually in a secret area) whereas all linedefs in secret zones are marked "hidden on automap"  so you are still humping walls in order to find the secrets. it's even more frustrating for me because , I find the automap useful only for searching secrets.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Roofi

[silentzorah]

1 hour ago, Roofi said:

When the mapper gives you an automap (usually in a secret area) whereas all linedefs in secret zones are marked "hidden on automap"  so you are still humping walls in order to find the secrets. it's even more frustrating for me because , I find the automap useful only for searching secrets.

What he said, except with the secret only opening from a hidden switch in a location completely unrelated to said secret.

[SatanaInArte]

The incredible paradox of the partial invisibility.Monsters can't hit you properly,but this makes projectiles and fireballs attacks more unpredictable and hard to avoid.

Edited January 29, 2018 by SatanaInArte